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    Default 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    In 2nd edition AD&D, I've never been able to find any official statement on whether specialist wizards may cast spells that have both a permitted school and a forbidden school. While not directly stated, it's seems to be implied in The Complete Wizard's Handbook (WH) and The Complete Book of Necromancers (CBN) that specialist wizards may cast those spells.

    For example, there are a few spells that belong to both Necromancy and either Enchantment or Illusion/Phantasm (the latter being prohibited schools for Necromancers in canon 2nd edition): Blackmantle (WH), Bone Club (WH), Corpse Visage (WH). Yet, in CBN, all of those are listed under "common spells for Necromancers" and some are on the list of memorized spells of the Necromancer NPCs in the book. This would seem to imply that as long as one of the schools is permissible, the spell should be available to wizard specialists.

    As a DM, I would interpret the existence of spells with multiple schools are being more accessible to specialist wizards than less.

    Does anyone know where this issue is addressed in any official capacity, such as a handbook or Dragon Magazine, etc.?

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Yes, I actually do remember one of the books dealing with this, saying that you can't use forbidden-school spells, even if one of the other schools it has happens to be your specialist school. Though I suppose a duallist could use such spells.
    Last edited by Narsil; 2012-10-02 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Narsil View Post
    Yes, I actually do remember one of the books dealing with this, saying that you can't use forbidden-school spells, even if one of the other schools it has happens to be your specialist school. Though I suppose a duallist could use such spells.
    Thanks! Any idea which book it was or where else to look? I've looked through the PHB, Tome of Magic, Wizard's Handbook, and Complete Book of Necromancers to no avail.

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Problem solved. This issue was addressed in the "Sage Advice" section of Dragon Magazine, issue #163:

    "A specialist wizard can use any spell that falls within the schools allowed to him, even if the spell in question also falls under an opposing school."

    Oh, happy day!

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Which, like many things the Sage posts, contradicts that which is written in the books.
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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    It comes down to interpretation perhaps ?

    Does a two school spell require elements of both schools to function ? (Some kind of school fusion)
    If so: your specialist couldn't cast them.

    Can a two school spell have two versions, i.e. can it be made to function either way ? (Kind of like convergent evolution)
    If so: your specialist could cast them.

    YMMV, so you'll have to ask your DM.
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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Which, like many things the Sage posts, contradicts that which is written in the books.
    I haven't found anything "in the books" that clarifies this issue. If you know where this is addressed in any of the canon material, please share that with us.

    Here's the full discussion from Dragon Magazine #163, p. 104:

    Q. How is each spell's school chosen? Also please explain how the various pairs of opposing schools of magic were chosen. What is the nature of the opposition? Why do illusionists have to contend with an extra opposition school?

    A. Generally, spells are grouped into schools according to the types of effects they produce and, by extension, the type of power used to produce their effects. Abjuration blocks, dispels, or protects; alteration produces changes in its target; conjuration/summoning brings material from some other place; enchantment/charm grants its users or targets special abilities; greater divination reveals information; illusion/phantasm causes perceived changes that are not real; invocation/evocation creates matter or energy; and necromancy provides or removes the energy of life. See The Complete Wizard’s Handbook for detailed explanations of each school.

    No two schools of magic are mutually hostile due to their natures; opposition arises from how the spells are learned and used. Specialist wizards employ methods of study and mental discipline that enhance their abilities to use certain types of magic and erode their aptitudes for others. This is why generalists can freely use magic from opposing schools while specialists cannot. Specific pairs of opposed schools were selected according to common sense and game balance. For example, if invokers spend a lot of time learning how to bring things into being from nothing, they probably neglect to learn how to call things from one place to another. Illusionists, who spend their time trying to create believable unrealities, have a hard time casting magic that produces and channels real energies; there are three such schools: invocation/evocation, necromancy, and abjuration.

    Q. I have noticed that a few spells are parts of two opposing schools of magic. For example, the limited wish spell is both conjuration/summoning and invocation/evocation. Can specialist wizards from either school use such spells? That is, can conjurers or invokers use limited wish? How is it that a spell can be from two opposing schools anyway?

    A. A specialist wizard can use any spell that falls within the schools allowed to him, even if the spell in question also falls under an opposing school. Certain effects, such as limited wishes, can be produced in more than one way; in this case, what is wished for can be plucked from some other place and delivered, or it can simply be created to order.
    I find this to be a well-reasoned explanation. School opposition does not imply that the schools are mutually hostile. However, it does come down to how one's DM (or you, as DM) interprets the rules in their campaign. I, for one, interpret it to mean that giving spells two schools allows for specialist wizards to have more rather than less access to them.
    Last edited by Mortianna; 2012-10-12 at 10:58 PM.

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    I've always dealt with spells listed in more than one school in just this way. There's never only one way to produce a spell effect. A lot of creatures can manifest them as spell-like abilities, even back in 2nd Edition - and clearly they don't belong to a particular school of magic. The writer is spot on with their analysis. Good find.

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Q. I have noticed that a few spells are parts of two opposing schools of magic. For example, the limited wish spell is both conjuration/summoning and invocation/evocation. Can specialist wizards from either school use such spells? That is, can conjurers or invokers use limited wish? How is it that a spell can be from two opposing schools anyway?

    A. A specialist wizard can use any spell that falls within the schools allowed to him, even if the spell in question also falls under an opposing school. Certain effects, such as limited wishes, can be produced in more than one way; in this case, what is wished for can be plucked from some other place and delivered, or it can simply be created to order.
    It's an interesting idea, and could have some intriguing unintended consequences. If I were running a game under this assumption, it would affect what a Limited Wish could do, based on who was casting it.

    If an Evocation specialist asked for a magic sword, then there would be one more magic sword in the world. If a conjuror asked for it, then she would get it, but a sword would disappear somewhere else in the world. (The original owner might eventually seek out the conjuror who stole his sword.)

    Presumably, a Limited Wish from an Evocation wizard would not be able to take the party to safety. (But it might create a magic item that could be used to Teleport.)

    The Summoner could produce a scroll with any spell that already existed, but couldn't use it to create a new spell that nobody in the world knew yet.

    I might use it to determine in what way the wish was limited. Something conjured might eventually be conjured back by its original owner. Something created might be less than (or different from) what was expected.

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    It's an interesting idea, and could have some intriguing unintended consequences. If I were running a game under this assumption, it would affect what a Limited Wish could do, based on who was casting it.

    If an Evocation specialist asked for a magic sword, then there would be one more magic sword in the world. If a conjuror asked for it, then she would get it, but a sword would disappear somewhere else in the world. (The original owner might eventually seek out the conjuror who stole his sword.)

    Presumably, a Limited Wish from an Evocation wizard would not be able to take the party to safety. (But it might create a magic item that could be used to Teleport.)

    The Summoner could produce a scroll with any spell that already existed, but couldn't use it to create a new spell that nobody in the world knew yet.

    I might use it to determine in what way the wish was limited. Something conjured might eventually be conjured back by its original owner. Something created might be less than (or different from) what was expected.
    Actually typically anything created outside of energy was generally considered conjuration whereas bringing an already created thing to you was summoning though both were under the same school. One odd thing was that teleportation was alteration back in 2e if I recall correctly and not conjuration as it is in 3e.

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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Actually typically anything created outside of energy was generally considered conjuration whereas bringing an already created thing to you was summoning though both were under the same school. One odd thing was that teleportation was alteration back in 2e if I recall correctly and not conjuration as it is in 3e.
    The logic behind it is that the creation of energy was evocation while the creation of matter was conjuration. Teleportation doesn't involve creating anything, just changing where it is, so that's alteration.

    I used to have a book from a game called Bloodshadows, it had an interesting method in it's magic system. Every spell had a skill component and a power component. The skills were similar to evocation, abjuration, alteration, and conjuration, etc. The powers were along the lines of pyromancy (fire), geomancy (earth), aquamancy, necromancy, vitomancy (life), and so on. Creating a golem under this system was a conjuration:vitomancy spell because you were creating the life force that animated it. The default fireball was evocation:pyromancy but there was a half page "sidebar" called 'Focus on Fireball' that detailed something like six other ways to make fireball spells. These included versions like an alteration:chronomancy that brought ashes back to fire, a conjuration:photomancy that used light, and a something:necromancy that used trapped 'corpse fire' (a magical St. John's lightning-like effect from graveyards) to make the fire.
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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Actually typically anything created outside of energy was generally considered conjuration whereas bringing an already created thing to you was summoning though both were under the same school. One odd thing was that teleportation was alteration back in 2e if I recall correctly and not conjuration as it is in 3e.
    Teleport is in Conjuration in 3.5, but was in another school in 3.0

    ED: OK - just checked - it was in Alteration in 3.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    The logic behind it is that the creation of energy was evocation while the creation of matter was conjuration. Teleportation doesn't involve creating anything, just changing where it is, so that's alteration.

    I used to have a book from a game called Bloodshadows, it had an interesting method in it's magic system. Every spell had a skill component and a power component. The skills were similar to evocation, abjuration, alteration, and conjuration, etc. The powers were along the lines of pyromancy (fire), geomancy (earth), aquamancy, necromancy, vitomancy (life), and so on. Creating a golem under this system was a conjuration:vitomancy spell because you were creating the life force that animated it. The default fireball was evocation:pyromancy but there was a half page "sidebar" called 'Focus on Fireball' that detailed something like six other ways to make fireball spells. These included versions like an alteration:chronomancy that brought ashes back to fire, a conjuration:photomancy that used light, and a something:necromancy that used trapped 'corpse fire' (a magical St. John's lightning-like effect from graveyards) to make the fire.
    You can refluff most spells as being in almost any school.
    Last edited by nedz; 2012-11-01 at 12:55 PM.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    You can refluff most spells as being in almost any school.
    In D&D it's fluff backed up by custom spell research. In that game it was part and parcel of the magic system and had real mechanical consequences. SPells that took more set-up were easier to cast (it was skill based casting with a fatigue/wounds limiter) or were more powerful. Altering parameters of the spell could change the defence roll from agility to endurance or willpower.
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    Default Re: 2nd edition AD&D: Question about spells with multiple schools

    I'm not sure if it ever WAS explicitly stated that multi-schooled spells are available to specialist wizards, but it can be inferred from the rules.

    For example:

    Enchant an Item falls under the Invocation and Charm schools. This allows Invokers and Necromancers to use a spell they wouldn't ordinarily have access to. Without the addition of the Ivocation school to Enchant an Item, Invokers and Necromancers wouldn't be able to create magical items, one of the major class skills of the wizard.

    Additionally, if you deny specialist wizards the ability to cast spells with mixed spheres, you end up in the situation where Enchanters can't use Enchant an Item because it's a Charm/Invokation spell, instead of a pure charm spell.

    Which is pure silliness.

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