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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III:
    Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Chat thread three is here and with it, a whole fifty pages of fun and pink-orange-yellow fruits! Whoo!

    Any entries for contests should be entered in the current contest and discussed here. That is, anything other than entries goes here. Also, anyone who enters the contests may have their classes evaluated for what "tier" it's in by Morph Bark here. This has no bearing on the contest, however, so keep making what you like.

    For those of you who are fans of the Pathfinder system (sometimes called 3.P), please refer to the Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition.

    Current Contest - Armageddon Ready

    Past Contests

    Contest Name First Place Winner
    I The Light Beckons Twilight Caster Owrtho
    II Altar of Naught Ebon Initiate ErrantX
    III Can I Borrow That? Hemoscribe Morph Bark
    IV Tipping the Scale Gambler PairO'Dice Lost
    V You're MIND! Mindwarped dragonjek
    VI Let's Play Dress Up! Stylist Cipherthe3vil
    VII You've Been PUNK'D! Generator ErrantX
    VIII One Small Step for a Contest...One Giant Step for Contestkind Zodiac Derjuin
    IX Better Than it Sounds Farmer Derjuin
    X Name That Class Tempest Warlord Silva Stormrage
    XI Big Money Weave a Mighty Web Companion titanreaver
    XII Race Race Son of Man Morph Bark
    XIII On a Whim Cycle Warden sirpercival
    XIV Champions and Mooks Ley Engineer sirpercival
    XV Lights! Camera! Extractor sirpercival
    XVI Doing What We Must Because We Can Astronomer sirpercival
    XVII Heroes of Note: Keeping it Trill TreŁthSyngŽr BelGareth
    XVIII Crazy Hobos Everywhere Panphobic sirpercival
    XIX Inner Might Jinnblood Zaydos
    XX Fables and Mythos and Tales, Oh My Tall Tale Zaydos
    XXI Can I Get Some Booze From the Crowd? Intoxicanter Zaydos
    XXII Taking Pixars of Dreamworks Mecha Ace Jester of Doom

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    Last edited by Temotei; 2014-06-20 at 02:52 AM.
    Base Class Contest XXIII - Armageddon Ready
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    Homebrew
    Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tavar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Cross posting so that this isn't lost in the thread transfer.
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    Whelp, let's get to it.

    Thoughts on the Fluff:
    Couple things stand out: First off, 'Foolish Fools' is a bit redundant. Chose one.

    Secondly, the order of the sections is off, and you're missing some of the sections.

    Thoughts on the Mechanics:

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post

    Hit Die: d8
    :sniped Table:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Shade Channelers are proficient with all simple weapons and one martial weapon of their choice (Usually a scythe), chosen at the first level. They are proficient in all light armors and with all shields except for the tower shield.
    Main thing I notice here is that it's pretty much the same chassis as the Cleric. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but that can provide a modest boost in power, as it gives full casters more options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post

    Spells :snip:
    Since he is not expending his own energy in casting these spells he is much less impaired if caught in an affect that limits his magic. If the Shade Channeler is under an affect that negates his spell casting but only targets him (Such as a pair of anti magic manacles or an anti magic ray spell) he can still cast spells. If he is under an affect that limits the casting in an area (Such as an anti magic field) his spells are suppressed and unusable like normal.
    :snip:
    The Shade Channeler's spells are neither arcane or divine, they do not have arcane spell failure though.
    The first effect is pretty powerful: might want to tone down or excise it. The secondary effect isn't so much powerful as it is troublesome. Why not just have them be Arcane effects that aren't subject to Spell Failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Spirit Channeling: :snip:

    The Shade Channeler does not have a spell list like normal casters. Instead whenever he refreshes his spirit energy he calls certain spells that he will have available for the day. For every spell that the Shade Channeler calls for that day he must expend Spirit Points equal to the spell level of the spell. He may never call more spells available per spell level than his charisma modifier. Thus a Shade Channeler with an 18 in charisma would only be able to call 4 spells from each spell level (4 first levels spells, 4 second level spells, etc). The Shade Channeler may call any spell from the necromancy school or any spell from the conjuration or divination school that is on Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. In addition, at first level the Shade Channeler can choose to call spells from an additional school on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, either, Evocation Illusion, Enchantment or Abjuration. Once the Shade Channeler makes this choice it can't be changed even with a wish or a miracle. Finally, the Shade Channeler can choose any spell that specifically enhances undead or animation of undead. Thus he could choose desecrate since it helps animating undead but not bull's strength as that can help all creatures not just undead.
    Okay, it's a point based caster, with a somewhat limited spell list. A couple edits I made to improve clarity(imo) are made in red.

    Personally? I think this is a bit powerful: conjuration is an extremely powerful school, and necromancy has some good stuff as well. Divination tends to be more variable, depending on the DM's rules, but it's still quite good as well. adding another school on top of this? Very, very powerful. Combined with a power point system of casting, as well as an Euridite method of spells prepared, and I think this is horribly overpowered. I'd say you need to reduce some combination of spells known, unique spells per day, and power points.

    Oh, and technically right now Spirit points never disipate. That means every time you rest when you aren't exhausted, you're increasing your spirit point pool. This is game breaking and needs to be fixed.

    Though, I thought I should ask, did you intend to leave transmutation out of the list of schools available to chose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    As a Shade Channeler gains power based on the recently deceased in the world they gain more power when death's are above average and less when deaths are below average. If a Shade Channeler spends significant time in an area of great death he also can harvest more energy if he replenishes his Spirit Points within the next 24 hours. Similarly if he spends significant time in an area of low death his power declines. This is up to a DM to decide but I will make a table to illustrate some guidelines.

    Spoiler
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    {table=head]Event|Spirit Point %
    Spending an hour near a recent (Within the week) small scale battlefield|120%
    Spending an hour near a recent (Within the week) large scale battlefield|150%
    Spending full day in a large country where death is either non existent or very very minimal |25%
    Spending a full day in a particular city where death is either non existent or very minimal|80%
    A global plague (The Black Death) sweeps across the land|140%
    A war starts between two nearby medium sized nations|110%
    A war starts between two nearby large nations|120%
    A world wide conflict|150%
    [/table]
    Note: As the Shade Channeler gains power from the souls of the recently departed if something that causes people to die but have their souls not pass on (Invading demons trap the souls of their enemies, or undead apocalypse) the Shade Channeler doesn't gain as much benefit from it.
    Interesting, and not too complicated. Though, do the various bonuses and penalties stack?

    Also, I feel this makes the power point module even harder to balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post

    Death Sense: :snip:

    Rebuke Undead: :snip:
    Useful and flaverful, and not overpowering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post

    Soul Harvest (Su):
    What about beings without class levels, or those with a mix of class and racial hit dice?

    I think it's a pretty powerful ability, especially with the loose limit it has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Corpse Crafter:
    Bonus feat, not too much to worry about. Not familiar with the feat, so can't say much, though I notice you didn't include the standard 'whether they qualify for it or not'. Is that not a concern for this feat?

    Undead Tactics: :snip:

    All tactics are standard actions. A Shade Channeler may use one Horde Tactic, Platoon Tactic and Commander Tactic every 5 rounds.
    do you mean that you can only use the undead tactic ability as a whole once every 5 rounds, or that you can only use each type of tactic once every 5 rounds(ie, use a horde tactic and it's 5 rounds before you can use another, but next round you can use a platoon or commander tactic).

    Spirit Boon: At fourth level the Shade Channeler can use his powers to enhance the undead under his control. By spending a number of spirit points indicated by the boon he can enhance an undead with a spirit boon he has available. He starts with 1 spirit boons at 4th level and gains 1 ever other level after, chosen from the list below. A particular undead can only have a single boon at a time. Undead can have an additional boon applied at 10th level and an additional boon every 6 levels after. :snip:
    Suggested changes to grammar are in red.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the llast two sentences there. Did you change your mind, or did you mean that a given undead can only have 1 boon at 4th, and an additional one every 6 levels after(2 10th, 3 at 16th)?

    Efficient Control: (Ex) Whenever the Shade Channeler attempts to rebuke an undead creature he can treat his HD as a number of HD lower equal to the number indicated by Efficient Control.
    That he/his is slightly confusing, as his properly refers back to the same subject as he, which is either the Shade Channeler or the Undead, neither of which makes sense. I think you want to change his to either it or the undead's (I prefer the latter). It's also probably best to switch the order of the last two sentences.

    Horde Empowerment: (Ex) :snip:
    I think this ability is largely fine: Undead tend to have inflated numbers of HD. The ability to switch control pool numbers around is more worrisome, especially since it doesn't seem to have an action. I'd suggest removing it, to be honest.

    Bonus Feat :snip:
    Not really much to say, though you should probably specify that you need to qualify for the feats.

    Form of Death: (Ex)At 12th level the Shade Channeler gains a deflection bonus to ac equal to his charisma modifier. At 18th level the Shade Channeler gains the ability to see in all forms of magical and non magical darkness. In addition the Shade Channeler gains a profane bonus on fort saves equal to his charisma modifier.
    These are the two worrisome aspects to me: a charisma based caster getting Charisma to AC and Fort Saves is a pretty good boost. Probably warrents some sort of limit on each ability(max bonus equal to 1/4 level, rounded up or down, perhaps). Also, you need to clarify what level the fort bonus activates on.

    Transfer Target: (Su)

    Soul Tether: (Su)

    Alternate Source: (Ex)
    Yeah, a perfect version of dispel magic? Too strong. Needs some activation check.

    Soul Tether seems fine, though.

    Alternate Source needs some clarification. Is it instead of the normal double spirit point cost, or in addition to. Basically, is it 3x spell level or 6x spell level?

    Custom Horde: (Ex) At 10th level the Shade Channeler has gained insight on how to animate particular undead. At 10th level he gains the ability to animate an undead creature or template with the create undead or create greater undead spells. The Shade Channeler can choose a custom creature to animate at 13th level and every 3rd level after. The Shade Channeler can choose any undead creature with a CR equal to his class level - 4. Thus at 10th level he can choose to animate a creature with CR 6 or lower, at 13th level he can select a creature with CR 9 or lower, etc. For templates the template selected must have a cr increase of 1/2 of his class level - 6. Thus at level 10 he can select a template that has a cr increase of +1, at level 13 he may select a template that has a cr of +2 or less.
    The wording here is odd, and honestly I'm not sure what you're trying to say here: does the ability start at level 13 or level 10? Are the templates limited exactly to that number, or can they be less? And what exactly do you mean by custom undead, and by the fact that he can chose them at certain levels? Are these permanent changes to the afformentioned spells? Why would you ever use Create Greater undead, if you can do everything with the lower level spell?

    Dread Army: (Su)
    Needs some cost to balance it, especially since Zombie is one of those scaling templates. Perhaps costing (# of spirit points equal to 1/2 zombies hit dice, round up)?

    Horde Perfection: At 14th level the Shade Channeler becomes more adept at animating undead and can now animate skeletons and zombies with HD higher than 20 with animate dead. In addition he can specialize in either skeletons or zombies. If he specializes in Skeletons they gain a bonus to hit equal to the Shade Channeler's charisma modifier and any Spirit Boons applied to them only costs half as many spirit points. If the Shade Channeler specializes in Zombies, all Zombies created by the Shade Channeler lose their single action only ability and gain 2hp/hd and +4 strength.
    Corrected some minor grammar errors. Pretty powerful ability, especially the Zombie part. Not sure how it balances.

    Improved Dread Army: (Su) At 16th level the Shade Channeler's ability to temporarily animate slain foes improves. This ability functions as Dread Army except you can choose to either animate the slain creature as a zombie or you can animate them as a corpse creature. If you animate the creature as a corpse creature the duration is 1 round/5 class levels.
    What's a corpse Creature? Still needs some kind of cost, though I have no idea what would be appropriate for this one.

    Embodiment of Death: (Ex)
    Probably should specify what the ability bonuses are. I feel the at death revival ability might be a bit much, especially combined with the further increase in undead you can control.

    Improved Spirit Capacity
    Flavor text. You are more adept at absorbing the energy of the world's dead.
    Prerequisites: Spirit Channeling, Shade Channeler class level 6.
    Benefits: You gain an additional Spirit Point per class level whenever you rest and regain Spirit Points.
    Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effects stack.
    Yeah, too good with the current mechanic.

    Improved Spell Calling
    Flavor text. You are very efficient at calling a particular spell.
    Prerequisites: Spirit Channeling, Shade Channeler class level 6.
    Benefits: Select one spell the you can cast. When calling that spell you do not have to pay Spirit Points to call the spell. This spell still counts against the number of spells you can have called of a certain level.
    Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time you must select a different spell.
    This seems fine.

    New Spells
    Lesser Animate Dead
    Seems perfectly fine.

    Thoughts on Tactics and Spirit boons:
    Making this it's own section because there are enough of them.
    Coordination Tactics: These seem fine.
    Bulwark Tactics: Minor issues with Improved Defensive Line and Pawn Shield. The former I'd either make it horde, or more preferably change the bonus to deflection or the like. The latter should probably last more than one round, but also needs to note what happens when the undead is destroyed(yes, somewhat obvious, but the less chance for confusion the better). Also, you should probably just have it be against the Undead's AC: otherwise, what about effects that are normally touch attacks and the like?
    Retribution Tactics:Explosive retribution should have a time limit, though multiple turns wouldn't be out of line. For Counter attack, is the cost of the attack one AOO, or do you get to make two attacks(one normal attack, one AOO)? Wordings not clear.
    Hampering Tactics:You probably need to specify that these special tactics only last one round. Disabling attack needs a much easier save, and should probably limit the number of saves one target needs to make. Distracting attack needs to specify if the target need to be in the zone the creature threatens. Crippling strike is too strong: speed reduction lasts too long, and -6 to dex is huge, especially since it's not a penalty it appears it can stack. Need to limit the number of saves on target must face because of this ability. Pinning rush seems a bit strong, as with the number of undead you can get this basically is an instant grapple. Probably need to limit the size of the bonus granted, as well as not eliminate AOO's.
    Swarming Tactics:The latter 2 seem okay, but the first two have some problems with timing. Essentially, if two undead are effected by this, and both attack a target in the same round sequentially, how do you determine the bonus? And if they do it at the same time?

    Spirit Boons:
    Enduring Boons: Eternal undead seems a bit strong. Probably should cap the raises given.
    Resistance Boons:Good, except there seems to be 1 error: Profane Reflexes gives the mettle ability(I think you want evasion).
    Mobility Boons:Perfect Teleporting Bones seems very strong. Probably should be a move action or something.
    Mage Slaying Boons:The last effect, the anitmagic sphere? Too Strong, especially for it's cost.
    Swarming Boons: Seem good.
    Powerful Boons: My main issue is with Profane Size. Seems like it's a bit too much: It's Powerful Blows+Improved Strengthen Flesh+Strengthen Flesh, plus two addition natural weapon size increases, for a total of 3. That's quite a bit extra, and it costs the exact same.
    Ranged Boons: The two ranged projectile abilities are kinda odd: the range increment rules don't seem to be followed. You only have one range increment, not 2 different ones.



    Final Notes:

    You seem to not always have abilities labeled with tags (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps).

    For a decently diverse Full Caster, this has a tone of powerful abilities. I'd suggest toning it down a bit.
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    And on that note, curse y'all entrants of BCC XIII for being so many of you.

    So. Much. Tiering.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Whelp, let's get to it.

    Thoughts on the Fluff:
    Couple things stand out: First off, 'Foolish Fools' is a bit redundant. Chose one.

    Secondly, the order of the sections is off, and you're missing some of the sections.
    Spoiler
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    Thoughts on the Mechanics:


    Main thing I notice here is that it's pretty much the same chassis as the Cleric. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but that can provide a modest boost in power, as it gives full casters more options.


    The first effect is pretty powerful: might want to tone down or excise it. The secondary effect isn't so much powerful as it is troublesome. Why not just have them be Arcane effects that aren't subject to Spell Failure?


    Okay, it's a point based caster, with a somewhat limited spell list. A couple edits I made to improve clarity(imo) are made in red.

    Personally? I think this is a bit powerful: conjuration is an extremely powerful school, and necromancy has some good stuff as well. Divination tends to be more variable, depending on the DM's rules, but it's still quite good as well. adding another school on top of this? Very, very powerful. Combined with a power point system of casting, as well as an Euridite method of spells prepared, and I think this is horribly overpowered. I'd say you need to reduce some combination of spells known, unique spells per day, and power points.

    Oh, and technically right now Spirit points never disipate. That means every time you rest when you aren't exhausted, you're increasing your spirit point pool. This is game breaking and needs to be fixed.

    Though, I thought I should ask, did you intend to leave transmutation out of the list of schools available to chose?



    Interesting, and not too complicated. Though, do the various bonuses and penalties stack?

    Also, I feel this makes the power point module even harder to balance.


    Useful and flaverful, and not overpowering.


    What about beings without class levels, or those with a mix of class and racial hit dice?

    I think it's a pretty powerful ability, especially with the loose limit it has.


    Bonus feat, not too much to worry about. Not familiar with the feat, so can't say much, though I notice you didn't include the standard 'whether they qualify for it or not'. Is that not a concern for this feat?


    do you mean that you can only use the undead tactic ability as a whole once every 5 rounds, or that you can only use each type of tactic once every 5 rounds(ie, use a horde tactic and it's 5 rounds before you can use another, but next round you can use a platoon or commander tactic).


    Suggested changes to grammar are in red.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the llast two sentences there. Did you change your mind, or did you mean that a given undead can only have 1 boon at 4th, and an additional one every 6 levels after(2 10th, 3 at 16th)?


    That he/his is slightly confusing, as his properly refers back to the same subject as he, which is either the Shade Channeler or the Undead, neither of which makes sense. I think you want to change his to either it or the undead's (I prefer the latter). It's also probably best to switch the order of the last two sentences.


    I think this ability is largely fine: Undead tend to have inflated numbers of HD. The ability to switch control pool numbers around is more worrisome, especially since it doesn't seem to have an action. I'd suggest removing it, to be honest.

    Not really much to say, though you should probably specify that you need to qualify for the feats.


    These are the two worrisome aspects to me: a charisma based caster getting Charisma to AC and Fort Saves is a pretty good boost. Probably warrents some sort of limit on each ability(max bonus equal to 1/4 level, rounded up or down, perhaps). Also, you need to clarify what level the fort bonus activates on.


    Yeah, a perfect version of dispel magic? Too strong. Needs some activation check.

    Soul Tether seems fine, though.

    Alternate Source needs some clarification. Is it instead of the normal double spirit point cost, or in addition to. Basically, is it 3x spell level or 6x spell level?



    The wording here is odd, and honestly I'm not sure what you're trying to say here: does the ability start at level 13 or level 10? Are the templates limited exactly to that number, or can they be less? And what exactly do you mean by custom undead, and by the fact that he can chose them at certain levels? Are these permanent changes to the afformentioned spells? Why would you ever use Create Greater undead, if you can do everything with the lower level spell?


    Needs some cost to balance it, especially since Zombie is one of those scaling templates. Perhaps costing (# of spirit points equal to 1/2 zombies hit dice, round up)?


    Corrected some minor grammar errors. Pretty powerful ability, especially the Zombie part. Not sure how it balances.


    What's a corpse Creature? Still needs some kind of cost, though I have no idea what would be appropriate for this one.


    Probably should specify what the ability bonuses are. I feel the at death revival ability might be a bit much, especially combined with the further increase in undead you can control.


    Yeah, too good with the current mechanic.


    This seems fine.


    Seems perfectly fine.

    Thoughts on Tactics and Spirit boons:
    Making this it's own section because there are enough of them.
    Coordination Tactics: These seem fine.
    Bulwark Tactics: Minor issues with Improved Defensive Line and Pawn Shield. The former I'd either make it horde, or more preferably change the bonus to deflection or the like. The latter should probably last more than one round, but also needs to note what happens when the undead is destroyed(yes, somewhat obvious, but the less chance for confusion the better). Also, you should probably just have it be against the Undead's AC: otherwise, what about effects that are normally touch attacks and the like?
    Retribution Tactics:Explosive retribution should have a time limit, though multiple turns wouldn't be out of line. For Counter attack, is the cost of the attack one AOO, or do you get to make two attacks(one normal attack, one AOO)? Wordings not clear.
    Hampering Tactics:You probably need to specify that these special tactics only last one round. Disabling attack needs a much easier save, and should probably limit the number of saves one target needs to make. Distracting attack needs to specify if the target need to be in the zone the creature threatens. Crippling strike is too strong: speed reduction lasts too long, and -6 to dex is huge, especially since it's not a penalty it appears it can stack. Need to limit the number of saves on target must face because of this ability. Pinning rush seems a bit strong, as with the number of undead you can get this basically is an instant grapple. Probably need to limit the size of the bonus granted, as well as not eliminate AOO's.
    Swarming Tactics:The latter 2 seem okay, but the first two have some problems with timing. Essentially, if two undead are effected by this, and both attack a target in the same round sequentially, how do you determine the bonus? And if they do it at the same time?

    Spirit Boons:
    Enduring Boons: Eternal undead seems a bit strong. Probably should cap the raises given.
    Resistance Boons:Good, except there seems to be 1 error: Profane Reflexes gives the mettle ability(I think you want evasion).
    Mobility Boons:Perfect Teleporting Bones seems very strong. Probably should be a move action or something.
    Mage Slaying Boons:The last effect, the anitmagic sphere? Too Strong, especially for it's cost.
    Swarming Boons: Seem good.
    Powerful Boons: My main issue is with Profane Size. Seems like it's a bit too much: It's Powerful Blows+Improved Strengthen Flesh+Strengthen Flesh, plus two addition natural weapon size increases, for a total of 3. That's quite a bit extra, and it costs the exact same.
    Ranged Boons: The two ranged projectile abilities are kinda odd: the range increment rules don't seem to be followed. You only have one range increment, not 2 different ones.



    Final Notes:

    You seem to not always have abilities labeled with tags (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps).

    For a decently diverse Full Caster, this has a tone of powerful abilities. I'd suggest toning it down a bit.
    Thank you for the Peach I greatly appreciate it.

    First off I should mention that the balance point for this class is supposed to be Tier 1. So it IS supposed to be strong and able to compete with clerics and wizards. Still I do think I went a bit overboard.

    On your comments:
    Chassis: It's skills are a bit better and I didn't feel it should be a martial class. Its not quite the same as the cleric as it doesn't have access to any armor heavier than light.

    Spells: Eh I honestly might just remove the first ability. I initially thought it would be an interesting fluff ability but it seems a bit clunky now and I need to weaken the class anyway. Also for the reason that the spell list isn't arcane while ignoring arcane spell failure is that I didn't want them producing scrolls. With their ability to learn spells from an entire school and cast spontaneously they could give a wizard ally almost any spell they want from the Divination, Necromancy, Conjuration or other schools.

    Spirit Channeling: Thanks for wording corrections, sometimes I am not quite clear with my words. The main inspiration was a point based system similar to the Spirit Shaman. The reasons for the school choices were this, Necromancy (Obvious), Conjuration (Summon Undead + Teleport), Divination (Seemed to fit the fluff of calling on spirits. Ask for their help/knowledge). I personally dislike the transmutation school so yes that was an intentional omission. Though to be honest I didn't realize it was the ONLY school I omitted. I probably will remove enchantment as this class has enough ways of getting minions.

    On the overpowered aspect I can agree. I wanted a system where the caster had limited sustainability compared with other casters (This class has tactics to make up for it). And to be able to increase their versatility in exchange for their sustainability and vise versa. I think I will cap it at 3 spells called each day for each level, the same as the Spirit Shaman. I also will move divination to the extra school section. So they only start with Conjuration and Necromancy and can select either, evocation, divination, illusion or abjuration.

    On the areas of death: Yes it makes it more complicated and a bit harder to balance. As you could have a campaign with an incredibly high death rate from a plague or similar and make this class's power skyrocket. I think I shall add a note that says the DM can ignore this section if it would unbalance a particular campaign.

    Soul Harvest: It doesn't check wether creatures have class levels or not so not sure why a being having or not having class levels would matter It gives the Spirit Points based on the Shade Channeler's class level thus a 4th level Shade Channeler gains 2 spirit points per each death to a maximum of 4 in one round. I will however, add a clause preventing the Shade Channeler from killing bags of rats to for this.

    Corpse Crafter: The feat doesn't have prerequisites so it didn't make a difference.

    Undead Tactics: Ya I should of clarified. You can use a horde tactic in round 1 and then have to wait 5 rounds to use another horde tactic. Then in round 2 you can use a commander tactic and wait 5 rounds till you can use another commander tactic. I will clarify.

    Spirit Boons: I meant that at 4th they can only have 1 applied at a time. I will clarify

    Efficient Control: "He" is supposed to be the Shade Channeler. Assume a 6th level Shade Channeler attempts to rebuke a ghoul (2 HD 2 Turn Resistance). The Shade Channeler can treat the ghoul as having 1 less HD (Thus 1 HD 2 Turn Resistance or 2 HD 1 Turn Resistance) and would thus command the ghoul. Also the ghoul would only take up 3 HD in the Shade Channeler's Command Undead Pool instead of the normal 4. If someone else attempted to turn or rebuke the ghoul it would still be treated as if it has 4 HD. Does that make it clearer?

    Horde Empowerment: Hm, I don't honestly see a problem with switching the amount of undead he can control. I should clarify that if he has more undead under his control then his pool allows he loses the excess undead. Its mainly there to help someone who wants to specialize in skeletons and zombies or commanded undead.

    Bonus Feat: Yes I will add that part.

    Aspect of Death: Hm, I would normally argue that the ac bonus doesn't matter that much as its a common type. But since I need to weaken the class anyway and it is just a boost I will weaken it. The fort save one will probably stay though, as at 18th level (I will clarify thats when you get the ability) the Shade Channeler will more than likely be undead (And thus lose his constitution modifier).

    Transfer Target: Perfect version of dispel magic not sure what you mean by that. It only works on targeted spells (not rays and the like).

    Alternate Cost: Its 6 X Spell Level. I will note this.

    Custom Horde: I will fix the wording issues. Also good point on the uselessness of greater create undead. I shall make it so that any undead higher than a certain CR will only be able to be animated by greater create undead.

    Dread Army: Zombies stop being effective around this level. Also this doesn't really work on any humanoid creature or a creature with class level. I don't think summoning a temporary stone giant zombie is worth a 7th level spell. As summon monster VII can create a bone creature that can cast wall of ice, dimensional anchor, fly, major image all at will. I did notice that they become better with destructive retribution so I am capping the amount of zombies out at once and nerfing the duration.

    Horde Perfection: Zombies and skeletons stop being as effective around this level. However, I overdid this a bit. I am going to reduce the bonuses.

    Improved Dread Army: This one might be a bit overpowered. Corpse Creature is a template from BOVD, I will mention that. The Duration on this one is fine. I think I will limit it so that only one corpse creature can be active at a time.

    Embodiment of Death: The bonuses are the same type as what you would get when you gain a specific template. Though on second thought I made this waaaay more convoluted than I needed to. Changed it so that the Shade Channeler becomes a Lich upon reaching level 20 or a template he can animate with animate custom horde.

    Improved Spirit Capacity: This should be fine now. Its nothing more than a scaling extra slot feat. (20 Spirit Points = 1 9th level spell and 1 1st at 20)

    Tactics:
    Defensive line should be horde I agree.
    Pawn Shield should be fine lasting only 1 round. Undead can soak up a LOT of damage so I don't want to make it last for too long. Its also a move action so the Shade Channeler can do other things that round. I will work on something for touch attacks though. I forgot about them.

    Explosive Retribution: It does have a time limit, 1 round. I guess I didn't make it clear I will improve it's clarity.

    Disabling Strike: I was supposed to change that. Its supposed to be (10+Bab+Shade Channeler's Charisma Modifier). I think I might change that to 1/2 the Shade channeler's HD too.
    Distracting Strike: Will add the must be threatened part.
    Crippling Strike: Is supposed to be a commander tactic. I think its fine for a single strike every 5 rounds.

    Swarming Assualt/Volley: Assuming 5 undead attack a subject. First one gets +0, Second gets +1, Third gets +2, Fourth gets +3, Fifth gets +4. I know it seems weird when looking at it in Real Time but isn't that how it normally happens in D&D combat?

    Boons:
    Eternal Undead I figured was fine since it only applies to zombies and skeletons and most of the time they will not even be useful within the same encounter. I am going to add a clause that killing them with good aligned or holy weapons will permanently destroy them though.
    Profane Reflexes: Will fix that thank you.
    Perfect Teleporting Boon: Yes I think a move of standard action would be better. I think I forgot how soon you can get it.
    Mage Slaying: Ya I agree. Do you have any good idea for another mage slaying boon? I couldn't think of anything else. Will remove this one till I get a better idea.
    Profane Size: I will look at it again. I think I might of just kept adding to that one without paying attention to what it already had.
    Ranged: Hm, well I always though longbows and crossbows had an initial range and then a range increment. Learn something new everyday. I will edit those.


    All in all thank you for the very indepth review. It helped greatly
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    Might I suggest that the contest winner, and not just the winning entry, be placed in the table for ease of reference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Might I suggest that the contest winner, and not just the winning entry, be placed in the table for ease of reference?
    Added "Winner" column in the table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Soul Harvest: It doesn't check wether creatures have class levels or not so not sure why a being having or not having class levels would matter It gives the Spirit Points based on the Shade Channeler's class level thus a 4th level Shade Channeler gains 2 spirit points per each death to a maximum of 4 in one round. I will however, add a clause preventing the Shade Channeler from killing bags of rats to for this.
    Ah, mistook it to be based on the creatures hd. Your method does need some balance point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Corpse Crafter: The feat doesn't have prerequisites so it didn't make a difference.
    Cool: don't have the book with that feat, so I wasn't sure.


    Efficient Control: "He" is supposed to be the Shade Channeler. Assume a 6th level Shade Channeler attempts to rebuke a ghoul (2 HD 2 Turn Resistance). The Shade Channeler can treat the ghoul as having 1 less HD (Thus 1 HD 2 Turn Resistance or 2 HD 1 Turn Resistance) and would thus command the ghoul. Also the ghoul would only take up 3 HD in the Shade Channeler's Command Undead Pool instead of the normal 4. If someone else attempted to turn or rebuke the ghoul it would still be treated as if it has 4 HD. Does that make it clearer?
    I know this. I'm saying that your statement has run afoul of Unclear Antecedents. Specifically, the 'he can treat his' segment, because the word he and the word his should both refer back to the same individual.

    Horde Empowerment: Hm, I don't honestly see a problem with switching the amount of undead he can control. I should clarify that if he has more undead under his control then his pool allows he loses the excess undead. Its mainly there to help someone who wants to specialize in skeletons and zombies or commanded undead.
    The main issue is it can lead to a bit of optimization, essentially trading all rebuke HD when you know you won't be seeing many undead to inflate your other pool, plus the power of certain kinds of skeletons/zombies.


    Aspect of Death: Hm, I would normally argue that the ac bonus doesn't matter that much as its a common type. But since I need to weaken the class anyway and it is just a boost I will weaken it. The fort save one will probably stay though, as at 18th level (I will clarify thats when you get the ability) the Shade Channeler will more than likely be undead (And thus lose his constitution modifier).
    Means you need to spend less on items to boost your Deflection AC.

    Transfer Target: Perfect version of dispel magic not sure what you mean by that. It only works on targeted spells (not rays and the like).
    The way I read it, you could, say, use this ability on someone's Dominate spell after it had been cast, negating the spell with no roll. If you tried to end that spell with Dispel Magic, there'd be a caster level roll. This also allows you to strip buff spells with no resistance.

    Dread Army: Zombies stop being effective around this level. Also this doesn't really work on any humanoid creature or a creature with class level. I don't think summoning a temporary stone giant zombie is worth a 7th level spell. As summon monster VII can create a bone creature that can cast wall of ice, dimensional anchor, fly, major image all at will. I did notice that they become better with destructive retribution so I am capping the amount of zombies out at once and nerfing the duration.
    What if you're fighting giants or Dragons? Or anything else that's mainly racial hit dice?

    This is too good. Period.

    Improved Spirit Capacity: This should be fine now. Its nothing more than a scaling extra slot feat. (20 Spirit Points = 1 9th level spell and 1 1st at 20)
    ....
    You do know that a scaling extra slot feat is perhaps one of the most powerful things you could give a caster? What's worse, this is an arcane caster who isn't limited by a certain number of spells per day of a given level. At level 20, it'd be easy for a Shade Channeler to cast 22 9th level spells. Psionics gets away with this because it's balanced around the system, but this is Arcane casting: these spells aren't.


    Pawn Shield should be fine lasting only 1 round. Undead can soak up a LOT of damage so I don't want to make it last for too long. Its also a move action so the Shade Channeler can do other things that round. I will work on something for touch attacks though. I forgot about them.
    Keep is simple: just have all attacks be redirected towards the pawn. If they're touch, then the attack is against the pawn's touch ac. If they're not, then it's not.

    Disabling Strike: I was supposed to change that. Its supposed to be (10+Bab+Shade Channeler's Charisma Modifier). I think I might change that to 1/2 the Shade channeler's HD too.
    Crippling Strike: Is supposed to be a commander tactic. I think its fine for a single strike every 5 rounds.
    Lowering the DC on the save is good.

    In that case, the speed loss should still be lowered, time wise: have it be on a 5 round timer, if you must, but one minute is a bit much. The Dex thing is problematic as well: how long does it last(currently it lasts forever), and what kind of reduction is it?

    Even then, I think it may very well be a bit much, even at only once/5 rounds.

    Swarming Assualt/Volley: Assuming 5 undead attack a subject. First one gets +0, Second gets +1, Third gets +2, Fourth gets +3, Fifth gets +4. I know it seems weird when looking at it in Real Time but isn't that how it normally happens in D&D combat?
    Not necessarily, which is why there's a problem.

    Eternal Undead I figured was fine since it only applies to zombies and skeletons and most of the time they will not even be useful within the same encounter. I am going to add a clause that killing them with good aligned or holy weapons will permanently destroy them though.
    I think you underestimate Skeletons and Zombies, at least assuming they're not baseline humaniod ones.

    Mage Slaying: Ya I agree. Do you have any good idea for another mage slaying boon? I couldn't think of anything else. Will remove this one till I get a better idea.
    More stuff equivalent to ones from the Mage Slayer line of feats?
    Last edited by Tavar; 2012-10-02 at 07:59 PM.
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    Already on your third thread? Congratulations!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Brau View Post
    Already on your third thread? Congratulations!
    To be fair, I cut off the first one since it was so old and I didn't make it.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Well the site cut out when I was 99% done with the updates on the Shade Channeler >.> Time to redo that next fix. Will respond to your comments soon Tavar.
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    Guardian Angel is up. PEACHes appreciated.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Bonded Allies: The Guardian Angel forms special bonds with her friends, and almost all of her class abilities are based around helping those to whom she is bonded. To form the bond, she must spend a minute speaking with a willing, intelligent creature with a friendly disposition towards her. She does not need to share a language with the creature, but it must agree to the bond. She may bond with an animal if it is capable of learning tricks, and the bond counts as a trick. Thereafter, she may communicate with them telepathically at an unlimited range as long as they are on the same plane. The limit to the number of bonds she can form is given under the ďBonded AlliesĒ heading on the table. She may not change her bonds unless one of her bonded allies dies or betrays her (causes damage to her or targets her with a harmful spell, generally, though other forms of betrayal are allowable by the DM). If she is betrayed, she takes a -4 penalty to her saves and AC against her former bonded ally, and a -4 penalty to attacks made against them until the end of the encounter. She may never form a bond with that creature again. If one of her bonded allies dies, she may choose to form a new bond with another creature, but she also may choose to keep the bond. She can always sense the locations of her bonded allies if they are on the same plane. She can sense if her bonded ally is on another plane, but not which plane it is. She always knows when a bonded ally is damaged or dies. She cannot willingly attack a bonded ally or target them with a harmful spell, and if she is under a mind control or compulsion that causes her to attempt to attack a bonded ally, she immediately gets another save to resist the enchantment or compulsion.
    This is cool. A few suggestions though:

    • Maybe add an ability modifier to your number of bonded allies. It'll be a drop in the bucket at high levels, but it lets you bond to the whole party at 1st.
    • I'd remove the set definition of betrayal. As written it looks like, say, if the party's wizard catches the Guardian Angel in a fireball, it's a permanent removal of the bond. Betrayal should be defined by the Guardian Angel in the situation...and perhaps should not permanently remove the bond. It seems like forgiveness should be possible for this class.
    • I'd also maybe loosen up the restriction about not being able to attack bonded allies, probably to disallowing lethal damage, ability damage or drain, negative levels, or other forms of lasting harm. As it stands, it could be interpreted as not allowing you to, say, grapple an ally to prevent it from setting off a trap, or something.


    Swift Aid: The Guardian Angel may aid another as a swift action instead of a standard action.
    Nothing to add here.

    Summoned (Su): A Guardian Angelís bonded allies may summon her to their sides with a swift or immediate action. The Guardian Angel must be conscious and willing to answer their call. She is made aware of her allyís situation when they attempt to summon her. She appears in any open square of her choosing adjacent to the bonded ally who made the call. She cannot be called if there isnít room. Answering the call is an immediate action on the part of the Guardian Angel. Eventually, she gains the ability to answer more than one summons in a round at levels 8, 13, and 18 (effectively, she gains an additional immediate action which can only be used to answer a summons). She may bring along any gear and equipment she can carry. She can even bring a mount along with her if her mount is also a bonded ally.
    This ability is really cool, useful and flavorful. An idea would be for a higher-level ability to expand upon the ability to bring a bonded mount, letting you bring along multiple bonded allies in contact. In most cases, I'd say limit it to a small set, so you can bring the party along, but given the contest theme, allowing you to bring any bonded allies would make the Guardian Angel an awesome unit-teleporter, which is not a common niche in D&D.

    Path: Guardian Angels have different methods to achieve the goal of protecting their friends. They may choose the paths of melee, ranged, defense, stealth, and magic. They gain a new path ability at levels 3, 7, and 11, then they may choose a second path at level 15 and gain a new path ability in their second path at level 19
    I notice that most of these involve offensive improvements. That's fine, but maybe adjust the description of the ability to account for that.

    Melee:
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    1st ability: the Guardian Angel gains Power Attack as a feat if they do not already have it. She may choose any feat she meets the prerequisites for if she already has Power Attack. Any time they hit an enemy while using Power Attack, any bonded allies who attack the same opponent before the Guardian Angelís next action may add the same bonus to their damage rolls without taking a penalty.

    2nd ability: When performing a Power Attack against a foe that has successfully damaged one of the Guardian Angelís bonded allies in the previous round, the Guardian Angel may subtract a number from her melee attack rolls and add twice that number to her damage rolls. If she is using a weapon in two hands, she adds three times the penalty. As per her first melee path ability, any bonded allies who attack the same opponent may also add that number to their damage rolls until the Guardian Angelís next action without taking a penalty, provided that the Guardian Angel successfully hits that opponent.

    3rd ability: The Guardian Angel gains the Pounce ability when making a summoned charge.
    This is pretty potent. My gut tells me it probably outclasses most of the other options.

    Ranged:
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    1st ability: The Guardian Angel never takes a penalty for shooting into a melee or grapple that one of her bonded allies is involved in, nor can she ever hit them accidentally. Likewise, her bonded allies will never hit her if they shoot into a melee or grapple that she is involved in or hit her accidentally. Her bonded allies are not protected by this ability if they shoot into each othersí melees or grapples, however.

    2nd ability: The Guardian Angel may coordinate any adjacent bonded allies to attack a single target with ranged weapons. They must all make full attacks with ranged weapons, and act on the Guardian Angelís turn (only bonded allies behind the Guardian Angel in initiative order can participate). Everyone involved gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls per bonded ally involved, to a maximum of +16 for 8 bonded allies (This is the maximum even if the Guardian Angel is size large or larger and can be adjacent to more than 8 bonded allies). All bonded allies take the same range increment penalty as the Guardian Angel, even if they are not using weapons with the same range increment. Only bonded allies who can actually attack the intended enemy count.

    3rd ability: Adjacent bonded allies gain the benefits of any feat related to ranged combat that the Guardian Angel has.
    This looks good. The first ability mentions allies hitting each other...I don't recall if there are rules for that in grapples, but in melee is always just a penalty (which is mentioned for the Guardian Angel but not its allies). So that should probably be tweaked. I think applying the benefits of the first ability to and for all bonded allies (so, none take penalties for the others) would be nice to add to one of the improvements, particularly for war-scale play. Maybe also a capability for bonded allies to not treat each other as cover?

    Defense:
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    1st ability: When a Guardian Angel fights defensively or takes the total defense action, all adjacent bonded allies gain the same bonus to their armor class. At 10th level, the bonus to AC for fighting defensively or taking the total defense action doubles. At 17th level, it triples.

    2nd ability: When an adjacent bonded ally is struck in melee, a Guardian Angel may use an immediate action to redirect the damage to herself. She may choose to either take half damage, or pin the opponentís weapon/limb for a moment, allowing all adjacent bonded allies to make an attack of opportunity on that opponent. To use this ability, she must be in a space threatened by the opponent who attacks her bonded ally.

    3rd ability: A Guardian Angel may occupy the same space as a bonded ally without any penalties. Using the second defense path ability is a free action if a bonded ally in the same space as her is attacked. You may now be summoned into a bonded allyís space with the summoned ability.
    Can't think of anything to change.

    Stealth:
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    1st ability:
    The Guardian Angel gains 2d6 sneak attack. She may now be summoned into a space anywhere within 30 ft of a bonded ally.

    2nd ability: The Guardian Angelís sneak attack increases to 4d6, and if she and a bonded ally are flanking an opponent, her and her bonded allyís sneak attack dice increase to d8ís, including any sneak attack dice she may have from multiclassing.

    3rd ability: The Guardian Angelís sneak attack increases to 6d6, and if she and a bonded ally are flanking an opponent, her bonded ally adds four dice to their sneak attack damage, even if they do not have the sneak attack ability.
    My instinct is that this one is somewhat weaker than the others. Maybe adding something like the Island of Blades stance and letting flanking bonuses be improved by the various Improved Aid abilities would help.

    Magic:
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    1st ability: The Guardian Angel may share spells and deliver touch spells for any bonded ally who can cast spells, as if she were their familiar (even if the bonded ally is a divine caster), as long as the spell doesnít have the Evil descriptor. She grants a +2 bonus to caster level checks to overcome Spell Resistance to any adjacent bonded ally.

    2nd ability: If the Guardian Angel uses her Swift Aid ability to help a bonded ally who casts a spell before the Guardian Angelís next action, the spellcaster casts her next spell at +2 caster level, unless it has the Evil descriptor, in which case the spell is cast at -1 caster level. When a bonded ally casts a beneficial spell which can affect multiple targets, the Guardian Angel does not count against the total number of targets.

    3rd ability: The Guardian Angel may be the point of origin for any of her bonded alliesí spells, as long as they do not have the Evil descriptor. She must be conscious, willing, and able to perform the somatic or verbal components of the spell. This does not count as an action for her. Rays or touch spells use her base attack bonus to determine whether or not they hit. In any round in which the Guardian Angel has been used to cast a spell, she adds a +nd6 bonus to her damage rolls with melee or ranged attacks, where n equals the level of the most powerful spell she channeled that round.
    This is cool and tactical, but I'd limit the third ability to once per round, and/or put a range limit on it. Otherwise, you can have as many mages as you can bond with sitting safe in their towers, with the Guardian Angel waltzing into battle and unloading scores of spells per round (telepathically telling them when and what to cast, of course). To keep it viable in the war scale, probably just require that the caster have LoS and LoE to the Guardian Angel.

    Summoned Attack (Su): When the Guardian Angel is summoned by a bonded ally, she may make a free attack at her highest base attack bonus against any opponent she threatens in her new location.
    Nice.

    Vengeance: If a bonded ally of the Guardian Angel dies or is dropped to negative hitpoints, she is immediately summoned to the space they last occupied, unless she perceives the situation to be suicidal (such as if they died in a pool of lava, or were killed by an overwhelming foe). This does not count against her per-round limit on the Summoned ability. She may attempt to use the Heal skill on them as a swift action. When attacking a creature that killed or dropped one of her bonded allies, every successful attack by the Guardian Angel is treated as a critical threat.
    This is potent, and darn good melee protection for low-level allies; drop one, and you're facing immediate Guardian Angel wrath. Solid if for common adventuring, too.

    Commune (Su): The Guardian Angel may communicate with any of her bonded allies who have died. They can provide her any information they had in life. What they might be able to report about the afterlife is up to the DM.
    Nice flavor ability.


    Summoned Charge (Su)
    : When the Guardian Angel uses her Summoned Attack ability, she may now count it as a charge. Most feats or abilities that affect charging apply, but certain ones, such as Leap Attack, do not, since it requires them to jump a certain horizontal distance.
    Hmm...I see a combo here that might be too strong. Melee Path 3 turns this into Pounce, so now we're saying that 1-4 times per round depending on level, an ally can give the Guardian Angel a full attack against an adjacent foe as a swift or immediate action. With a single attack, that's solidly strong. A full attack may be a bit much.

    Improved Aid: When using the aid another action, the Guardian Angel grants a +4 bonus instead of a +2 bonus.
    Nice.

    Phase (Su): After being constantly summoned to help her friends, the Guardian Angel eventually finds a way to remain in the place between places for an indefinite amount of time. As a free action, she disappears to a place that is not part of any plane and cannot be found by non-epic magic. She cannot return on her own, however, and must be summoned by one of her bonded allies. She does not age or need food or air while she is phased, nor does any time pass for her while she is phased. Thus, any spells or status ailments that affected her when she phases do not affect her until she returns, and their durations are halted. She may not take any actions while phased except for communicating with her bonded allies.
    This is really cool, excellent flavor.

    Greater Aid: The Guardian Angel now grants a +6 bonus when using the aid another action.
    Nice.

    Vengeance II: When attacking a foe who killed or dropped one of her bonded allies, the Guardian Angel treats any successful hit as a confirmed critical. Against opponents who are normally immune to critical hits, she still treats successful hits as a critical threat, and they are affected as normal.
    Yeah, ouch. If engaging a Guardian Angel's unit, drop the Guardian Angel first. OR ELSE. Still, in general use, the fact that they have to drop an ally makes this niche enough that it isn't overpowered, I don't think. Really, this whole ability line is a very good, subtle way to "draw aggro".

    Superior Aid: The Guardian Angel now grants a +8 bonus when using the aid another action.
    Still nice.

    Vengeance III: The Guardian Angel gains 2 additional multipliers to her critical hits when attacking an opponent who killed or dropped one of her bonded allies, and her weapons gain the vorpal special ability against them, even if they are not slashing weapons.
    You would have to be a fool to go after the Guardian Angel's allies first.

    General Impressions:

    This class looks excellent. I love the flavor of the mechanics, although a bit more descriptive flavor might be useful. As a general point of formatting, it's nice to include what level the abilities are gained at in their entries. I think the big theme in several of my suggestions is to make it so higher-level Guardian Angels are more like...the commanders of a unit, so some of the benefits they gain with bonded allies are shared among the bonded allies. Mainly just to strengthen the class's theme for the contest. Of course, that's all just opinion and ideas, not sure how it would really work in practice.

    Anyway, great job!
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    My class, the Legion Magus, could also use a peach and maybe an image. I haven't been able to find a free one.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    i've been having that problem for a while now

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    sorry I've not been on for a while guys, work took over for a while. I will try to start another peachathon at some point over the next few days (all things willing). I cant say exactly when as I'm still finishing things off but I will try to start before the end of the weekend.

    Who knows maybe I will get some work done on my own class as well. lol
    OMFGWTF!!

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quellian-dyrae, thanks for a very prompt, thorough, and positive PEACH. I will commence the re-evaluation based on your suggestions.

    Edit: I made a few minor changes, mostly along the lines you suggested. The Guardian Angel's charisma bonus now helps a few of her abilities (and forms the limit for the magic path's capstone). My changes to the stealth path actually seem to have made it weaker, however. Would just increasing the amount of sneak attack (3d6, 6d6, and 9d6, perhaps) put it on par with the others?

    Edit edit: I also remembered that the Guardian Angel originally had all bad saves. Changed it so she has all good saves when adjacent to a bonded ally, and all bad saves if not. Also added to the skill list.
    Last edited by sengmeng; 2012-10-12 at 02:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Changes look good to me. I wouldn't increase the Sneak Attack, because at that point you're doing more sneak attack than an equal-level rogue for most levels of play.

    I also noticed that Vengeance doesn't mention a duration. That might be worth adding.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post
    I also noticed that Vengeance doesn't mention a duration. That might be worth adding.
    That was intentional. The Guardian Angel never forgets! I thought of having it be until the end of the encounter, but it doesn't make sense flavor-wise. I'll consider changing it.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Posting a Peach on the Guardian Angel any ability I didn't comment on is fine IMO.

    Guardian Angel notes:

    Melee Path:
    Second ability: Does this count as power attack? As in do feats like leap attack stack with it? The wording is somewhat unclear.

    Ranged Path:
    1st Ability: Wouldn't the first ability be clearer if it just gave all bonded creatures within 100ft precise shot?
    2nd Ability: You might want to introduce a scaling cap instead of just a flat cap of 8 creatures. Not too crucial but I feel the ability to get +16 to damage and to hit at level 7 is a bit too strong.
    3rd Abiltiy: What is the limit for things that help ranged combat? Does weapon focus (Longbow) count? Would two weapon fighting feats be granted if the Guardian Angel is dual wielding crossbows?

    Defense Path:
    2nd Ability: If the guardian angel pins the weapon does he still take half of the damage? Also as a side note this ability can't be used on ranged attacks or spells as they don't threaten any squares.
    3rd Ability: Nothing wrong with this I actually find it a very interesting and well thought out ability

    Stealth Path:
    General: What was your reasoning for including this path? It seems somewhat out of place. Also it might need a different name. It really isn't about stealth its more about coordinating with allies to deal sneak attack damage. Thats just IMO though.

    Magic Path:
    2nd Ability: For when an ally casts a beneficial spell that affects multiple opponents part, does the Guardian Angel and the bonded allies need to be within range of the spell? Or are they just automatically affected.
    3rd Ability: The extra damage can make low level fodder mages incredibly lethal. Assuming the Guardian Angel takes leadership by level 20 and either has an ally that can cast 9th level spells or a cohort he can inflict an insane amount of damage with this ability. Might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round.

    Vengeance: Incredibly broken and exploitable for this reason, you can bond it to animals. Keep a 1 hd rat or something you are bonded to near you. If you ever get hit with an AOE you get a permeant auto crit effect on them. Or you could bond with a spider and control have it walk on the enemy who will crush it and gives you a permanent auto crit effect. Not sure how to balance it but it is easily exploitable in this form.

    Vengeance II & III: Same as above.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by malonkey1 View Post
    My class, the Legion Magus, could also use a peach and maybe an image. I haven't been able to find a free one.
    Hm, the class seems a bit bland. Its essentially a bard like spell caster with marshal auras and a summonable minion.

    For the bonded creature can the Legion Magus ever switch what creature it is? At level 8 it can only select a cr 6 creature and it seems like it only advances by racial HD or class levels. At say level 16 could the Legion Magus preform some ritual to bind a new summon with CR 16? Say a Planetar?
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Yes, at level 16, a Bonded Summoner may bind a CR 16 creature. The Legion Magus may change what type of creature is bonded to it any time it gains a level in the class. I'll add the to the description. And it should be noted that it can use Draconic Auras with their Major Aura bonus, should they learn them. Perhaps I'll give them a Draconic aura every few bonus levels for free.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Posting a Peach on the Guardian Angel any ability I didn't comment on is fine IMO.

    Guardian Angel notes:

    Melee Path:
    Second ability: Does this count as power attack? As in do feats like leap attack stack with it? The wording is somewhat unclear.

    Ranged Path:
    1st Ability: Wouldn't the first ability be clearer if it just gave all bonded creatures within 100ft precise shot?
    2nd Ability: You might want to introduce a scaling cap instead of just a flat cap of 8 creatures. Not too crucial but I feel the ability to get +16 to damage and to hit at level 7 is a bit too strong.
    3rd Abiltiy: What is the limit for things that help ranged combat? Does weapon focus (Longbow) count? Would two weapon fighting feats be granted if the Guardian Angel is dual wielding crossbows?

    Defense Path:
    2nd Ability: If the guardian angel pins the weapon does he still take half of the damage? Also as a side note this ability can't be used on ranged attacks or spells as they don't threaten any squares.
    3rd Ability: Nothing wrong with this I actually find it a very interesting and well thought out ability

    Stealth Path:
    General: What was your reasoning for including this path? It seems somewhat out of place. Also it might need a different name. It really isn't about stealth its more about coordinating with allies to deal sneak attack damage. Thats just IMO though.

    Magic Path:
    2nd Ability: For when an ally casts a beneficial spell that affects multiple opponents part, does the Guardian Angel and the bonded allies need to be within range of the spell? Or are they just automatically affected.
    3rd Ability: The extra damage can make low level fodder mages incredibly lethal. Assuming the Guardian Angel takes leadership by level 20 and either has an ally that can cast 9th level spells or a cohort he can inflict an insane amount of damage with this ability. Might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round.

    Vengeance: Incredibly broken and exploitable for this reason, you can bond it to animals. Keep a 1 hd rat or something you are bonded to near you. If you ever get hit with an AOE you get a permeant auto crit effect on them. Or you could bond with a spider and control have it walk on the enemy who will crush it and gives you a permanent auto crit effect. Not sure how to balance it but it is easily exploitable in this form.

    Vengeance II & III: Same as above.

    Well, the 'Paths' that I had a really clear idea for were Magic and Melee, and the rest were made for more options, so they didn't have quite the same germ of creativity behind them. I personally thought Defense was the least formidable, but it hasn't seen a lot of criticism. Stealth isn't exactly about making the Guadian Angel stealthy, it's about making her a better supporter of a stealthy ally. I kind of wanted her to gain the ability to be summoned at a distance to provide flanking bonuses (or appear on the other side of a pit, or outside of a jail cell) and then I couldn't find much flavor-wise besides more sneak attack and the Sacred Strike feat.

    The Ranged path obviously suffered from a lack of inspiration as well. The first ability is essentially Precise Shot, BUT it's meant to only work when bonded allies shoot into each others' melee or the Guardian Angel's, so by the time you've spent text explaining that, you don't save any wordage by mentioning Precise Shot (also, Precise Shot has no bearing on shooting into a grapple, but I couldn't find the rules for that). The second ability comes at level 11, not level 7, and the third ability, well, I just didn't want to list every possible feat that could be on that list and I hope that people don't need rules lawyering and could just use common sense.

    As for the magic path's third ability, I don't know what you mean by "individual spell level" vs "highest spell level channeled." But, it comes at level 19, so the wizard in the party is doing insanely scary things, and the stuff that a 9th level spell does makes the Guardian Angel gaining +9d6 damage in the process almost irrelevant.

    Vengeance is less exploitable than you think. You specifically cannot do what you described, as spiders and rats are not animals. I may change it in the following ways, though. 1: The Guardian Angel has an alignment restriction of good, but I haven't yet made rules for what happens if they break it, so intentionally sacrificing your pets or allies could result in a loss of class abilities. 2: Make it take a week to bond with an animal (the normal time to teach an animal a trick). 3: Significantly reduce the number of bonded allies so that forming a frivolous bond like this is less attractive. 4: Give the Guardian Angel morale penalties from grieving afterwards (once the initial fit of vengeance is over).

    I will consider where clarification is needed on your other points. Thank you for your PEACH.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Hm, the class seems a bit bland. Its essentially a bard like spell caster with marshal auras and a summonable minion.

    For the bonded creature can the Legion Magus ever switch what creature it is? At level 8 it can only select a cr 6 creature and it seems like it only advances by racial HD or class levels. At say level 16 could the Legion Magus preform some ritual to bind a new summon with CR 16? Say a Planetar?
    Alright, did some editing, and now the Bonded Creature is a bit clearer. Bonded creatures advance with their owner's Legion Magus level by Racial HD or by Class Level (Including, possibly, PrCs), and when their CR relative to their owner increases, it can be by the normal HD/Class Level method, or by means of adding a template. At each level, the Legion Magus can replace his BC with a new one by a ritual of negligible cost. It keeps any templates applied to the former, provided they make sense (no Demonic Planetars unless your DM's cool with it), and the relative CR remains the correct number.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Hey just edited the Shade Channeler a bit. Reworked what Spirit Boons cost (Instead of Spirit Points it's rebuke undead) and also redid Soul Harvest a bit so it's easier to calculate how many Spirit Points a Shade Channeler has at each given level.

    So right now I am assuming at level 1,5,10,15,20 a Shade Channeler to have about.

    1st: 6 Spirit Points. Enough for
    Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
    1: 1/2
    Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 1 Spirit Point (Requires 1 kill)

    5th: 45 Spirit Pints Enough for
    Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
    1: 0/0
    2: 1/1
    3: 3/3
    Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 10 Spirit Points (Requires 4 kills 2/round)

    10th: 135 Spirit Points. Enough for
    Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
    1: 0/0
    2: 1/1
    3: 2/3
    4: 2/2
    5: 3/3
    Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 50 Spirit Points (Requires 10 kills 2/round)

    15th: 255 Spirit Points Enough for
    Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
    1: 0/0
    2: 0/0
    3: 0/0
    4: 2/2
    5: 3/3
    6: 3/3
    7: 3/3
    Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 105 Spirit Points (Requires 14 kills 2/round)

    20th: 430 Spirit Points Enough for
    Spell Level: Spells Called/Spells Cast
    1: 1/1
    2: 0/0
    3: 3/2
    4: 3/3
    5: 3/3
    6: 3/3
    7: 3/3
    8: 3/3
    9: 3/3
    Max Spirit Point Recovery from Soul Harvest: 200 Spirit Points (Requires 20 kills 2/round)


    I think it's a bit low on Spirit Points right now. The Shade Channeler does have other class features such as Tactics and Spirit Boons to make up for it but right now, especially at low levels where he isn't likely to have many undead, he will spend much of combat simply not doing anything. Does anyone have any good ideas? Maybe a flat increase of Spirit Points such that the base Spirit Points increase from like 6,10,15,21,27...
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Minor fixes made to Guardian Angel. Vengeance is still exploitable, but WILL cause alignment problems if abused, and only one animal can be a bonded ally at a time, and bonding with an animal takes a week. Clarification made where necessary (although I'm still not sure what Silva meant by "might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round" in reference to the 3rd magic path ability.) Unless I get more feedback to the contrary, this should be the final form of the Guardian Angel, and I'm almost done on ACF's and feats.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Trying to fit finishing the Ley Engineer in between a massive work schedule... but I haven't given up!
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Minor fixes made to Guardian Angel. Vengeance is still exploitable, but WILL cause alignment problems if abused, and only one animal can be a bonded ally at a time, and bonding with an animal takes a week. Clarification made where necessary (although I'm still not sure what Silva meant by "might want to make it deal 1d6 divine damage for the individual spell level not the highest spell channeled in a round" in reference to the 3rd magic path ability.) Unless I get more feedback to the contrary, this should be the final form of the Guardian Angel, and I'm almost done on ACF's and feats.
    Ah sorry I missed that you were confused. This is what I mean, correct me if I am wrong in my logic.

    If a 17th level character channels say meteor swarm through the Guardian angel it will gain 9d6 damage correct? That is fine, +9d6 to a meteor swarm isn't overpowered at all.

    However, in the same round 150 level 1 wizards (Gained from leadership or whatever) can cast magic missile and ALSO gain +9d6 damage. I feel that in this case the wizards casting magic missile should get an additional +1d6 damage.


    Does that make sense? Or am I misinterpreting something?
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Ah sorry I missed that you were confused. This is what I mean, correct me if I am wrong in my logic.

    If a 17th level character channels say meteor swarm through the Guardian angel it will gain 9d6 damage correct? That is fine, +9d6 to a meteor swarm isn't overpowered at all.

    However, in the same round 150 level 1 wizards (Gained from leadership or whatever) can cast magic missile and ALSO gain +9d6 damage. I feel that in this case the wizards casting magic missile should get an additional +1d6 damage.


    Does that make sense? Or am I misinterpreting something?
    The spells don't gain damage, the Guardian Angel's attacks do. How can I word that more clearly?
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    The spells don't gain damage, the Guardian Angel's attacks do. How can I word that more clearly?
    Sorry it IS clear. I misread it completely.

    Also I added two new sets of boons for the Shade Channeler, Entropic and Spellcasting Boons. Please peach them if you wouldn't mind
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Hi folks, I know I'm not done with the Plans yet (but I'm working on them as fast as I can!), but I'd really appreciate if someone could take a look at what I've done with the Ley Engineer already and give some feedback.
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