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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Has the next theme been decided on?
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Has the next theme been decided on?
    Nope. Got an idea?
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Well, we still have access to the chart in the old thread.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Well, we still have access to the chart in the old thread.
    The response was a bit underwhelming.

    I have a few suggestions:

    Creature Feature- like Race Race, but more monstery.

    Cinephilia- recreate a famous movie hero with a base class. (Edit: Dibs on Indiana Jones)

    Big Dipper- creating very multiclassing-friendly classes (probably counterintuitive to the purpose of a 20 level base class contest, but oh well).

    Bad Juju (is that politically correct?)- Hexes and ill luck.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    The response was a bit underwhelming.

    I have a few suggestions:

    Creature Feature- like Race Race, but more monstery.

    Cinephilia- recreate a famous movie hero with a base class. (Edit: Dibs on Indiana Jones)

    Big Dipper- creating very multiclassing-friendly classes (probably counterintuitive to the purpose of a 20 level base class contest, but oh well).

    Bad Juju (is that politically correct?)- Hexes and ill luck.
    I kinda like the Cinephilia one. I personally would wonder if Anime movies would count for that one though. If they do I am all for it
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    I kinda like the Cinephilia one. I personally would wonder if Anime movies would count for that one though. If they do I am all for it
    Princess Mononoke would be a good subject for that, as would maybe Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle, just looking at Miyazaki films.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    For some reason the first thing I thought of when you asked for a new theme was this.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    I still like a lot of those ideas in the other thread: true believers, inner planes, time, song-inspired...

    Cinephilia is a great idea though. The trick is going to be finding a movie character that's interesting but hasn't been done to death before...
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    I'm siding with cinephilia here. Snape killed Trinity with M. Night Shamalan's sled!!
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    If we do cinephilia I'm claiming Inception.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    The trick is going to be finding a movie character that's interesting but hasn't been done to death before...
    Nothing wrong with beating a dead horse on these forums... there must be thousands of monk fixes already, and there will probably be one more tomorrow.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Nothing wrong with beating a dead horse on these forums... there must be thousands of monk fixes already, and there will probably be one more tomorrow.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    If we do cinephilia I'm claiming Inception.
    We have to do this. Because I have so many ideas........ all of the ideas. All of them.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Nothing wrong with beating a dead horse on these forums... there must be thousands of monk fixes already, and there will probably be one more tomorrow.
    Considering the number of martial artist in films, this contest could easily have a monk fix.

    Hell, they could all be monk fixes.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Any word on results/new contest?
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Any word on results/new contest?
    My bad. Really busy here doing papers and stuff. Cinephilia seems like it'll be the new theme. As for the results, I'll update the voting thread.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Sorry for the delay. The thread is up.

    Cinephilia is the theme. Good luck.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Woohoooo! I'm so excited about the Extractor that I just posted, I'm entering a PbP with one already!

    Still writing out soulmelds, but I'd appreciate someone to take a look at it, especially the rather extensive extraction mechanics, if you get a chance. I'll happily PEACH in return when your entry is up.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Woohoooo! I'm so excited about the Extractor that I just posted, I'm entering a PbP with one already!

    Still writing out soulmelds, but I'd appreciate someone to take a look at it, especially the rather extensive extraction mechanics, if you get a chance. I'll happily PEACH in return when your entry is up.
    Well, to start off, I just have to say that I find it incredibly amusing that our two classes could easily be the "fighter" and "rogue" classes of some sort of True Nature of Reality power source.

    But that aside.

    Overall, I think the class looks very well done. It is quite complex, using two subsystems, Inspiration as an additional resource, and Lucid Dreaming which is, itself, a fairly extensive skill. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I do like how all the abilities work together, tied in through Inspiration.

    However, I'm not sure about the maneuvers as a daily resource. Maneuvers don't tend to be so powerful that a daily limit is really necessary (a cursory look over the discipline doesn't really make me think it's significantly stronger than normal). This is compounded by the fact that the class lacks reliable ways to deal solid damage. Even the maneuvers tend to be more tactical and debuff style, which can still work in a party, but I'm not sure they can use their maneuvers often enough to really make a strong claim to a debuffer role.

    I suppose it makes me ask, is it really worth having a whole additional subsystem in play, for abilities balanced for per-encounter use that are being used at a per-day rate?

    I really like Contagious Awakening. It helps deal with the issue of being in a skill-based challenge and the non-skill characters being unable to try and do anything. The Lucid Projection is also an interesting way to work with the balance issues of companion class features.

    The Extraction mechanic...I think suffers from the nature of D&D. It's very cool and I like how you integrated the various skills and force the opposition to use a lot of skills, giving a nice advantage to the dreamer despite the number of checks. It has the advantage that it isn't technically a divination (or Mind Affecting?), it's potentially subtle, and it can be used remotely. Even so, it's way less efficient than a lot of other magical ways to get information in D&D...even a bard with Suggestion and Modify Memory. It definitely has its niche, I'm just not sure how often that niche will come up in play. It just seems like in play it would be relegated to more of a flavor ability that might come up if the DM builds a challenge around it, rather than being the cornerstone of the class.

    One actual mechanical problem, though, unless the first Gather Information check doesn't take time and only successive ones take normal time, that Extractions below Complexity 5 (DC 30) basically auto-fail, since you don't have enough time to make even a single Gather Information check (with successful Disguise and Forgery, you have a 50% chance that Complexity 4 will work).

    Overall, I like the class, but I definitely think it's going to be campaign-dependent. In a more urban/political game, it can be awesome. In a more traditional adventure setting, it has lots of utility, but I feel it might have trouble making reliable contributions, depending on optimization levels (it does have a high enough sheer volume of capabilities that I imagine it has a decently high optimization floor, so that will help).
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Hm I am not sure on what to do for this one. I definitely will participate in it though.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post
    Well, to start off, I just have to say that I find it incredibly amusing that our two classes could easily be the "fighter" and "rogue" classes of some sort of True Nature of Reality power source.
    That... is awesome. Where would these guys fit in?

    But that aside.

    Overall, I think the class looks very well done. It is quite complex, using two subsystems, Inspiration as an additional resource, and Lucid Dreaming which is, itself, a fairly extensive skill. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I do like how all the abilities work together, tied in through Inspiration.
    Yes, I had so many ideas for what mechanics to use that... I decided to use all of them.

    However, I'm not sure about the maneuvers as a daily resource. Maneuvers don't tend to be so powerful that a daily limit is really necessary (a cursory look over the discipline doesn't really make me think it's significantly stronger than normal). This is compounded by the fact that the class lacks reliable ways to deal solid damage. Even the maneuvers tend to be more tactical and debuff style, which can still work in a party, but I'm not sure they can use their maneuvers often enough to really make a strong claim to a debuffer role.

    I suppose it makes me ask, is it really worth having a whole additional subsystem in play, for abilities balanced for per-encounter use that are being used at a per-day rate?
    Well, the point for having them be per-day rather than per encounter is that the original factotum only got up to 7th level spells rather than 9th level maneuvers. And didn't have soulmelds to bolster their abilities. But in considering actually playing one, I know I personally would love to be able to use my maneuvers more often. Do you think it's still balanced to let the maneuvers be per-encounter instead of per-day?

    The Extraction mechanic...I think suffers from the nature of D&D. It's very cool and I like how you integrated the various skills and force the opposition to use a lot of skills, giving a nice advantage to the dreamer despite the number of checks. It has the advantage that it isn't technically a divination (or Mind Affecting?), it's potentially subtle, and it can be used remotely. Even so, it's way less efficient than a lot of other magical ways to get information in D&D...even a bard with Suggestion and Modify Memory. It definitely has its niche, I'm just not sure how often that niche will come up in play. It just seems like in play it would be relegated to more of a flavor ability that might come up if the DM builds a challenge around it, rather than being the cornerstone of the class.
    Well, let me say that I never intended extraction to be a divination replacement, particularly not a quick-and-dirty one. It's more of a plot- and roleplaying-generating mechanism. You wouldn't be performing an extraction every adventuring day; instead, you might spend an entire gaming session roleplaying through an extraction when it's just the sort of subtlety you need. So yes, your instinct is correct, and exactly what I intended.

    I spent a lot of time working out the mechanics of a relatively situational ability... mostly because they're central to the concept of the class (and to the inspiration), and also to make them awesome for when they do happen.

    One actual mechanical problem, though, unless the first Gather Information check doesn't take time and only successive ones take normal time, that Extractions below Complexity 5 (DC 30) basically auto-fail, since you don't have enough time to make even a single Gather Information check (with successful Disguise and Forgery, you have a 50% chance that Complexity 4 will work).
    I can is maths good. I will up the durations in the complexity table.

    Overall, I like the class, but I definitely think it's going to be campaign-dependent. In a more urban/political game, it can be awesome. In a more traditional adventure setting, it has lots of utility, but I feel it might have trouble making reliable contributions, depending on optimization levels (it does have a high enough sheer volume of capabilities that I imagine it has a decently high optimization floor, so that will help).
    Perhaps if I change the maneuvers to per-encounter, that would help with the day-to-day contributions? Also, the soulmelds are likely to help with that as well. At least, I hope so.

    I'm glad you like it! I'll take a look at Neo when I get a chance (probably after Wednesday).
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post
    Well, to start off, I just have to say that I find it incredibly amusing that our two classes could easily be the "fighter" and "rogue" classes of some sort of True Nature of Reality power source.
    That... is awesome. Where would these guys fit in?

    But that aside.

    Overall, I think the class looks very well done. It is quite complex, using two subsystems, Inspiration as an additional resource, and Lucid Dreaming which is, itself, a fairly extensive skill. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I do like how all the abilities work together, tied in through Inspiration.
    Yes, I had so many ideas for what mechanics to use that... I decided to use all of them.

    However, I'm not sure about the maneuvers as a daily resource. Maneuvers don't tend to be so powerful that a daily limit is really necessary (a cursory look over the discipline doesn't really make me think it's significantly stronger than normal). This is compounded by the fact that the class lacks reliable ways to deal solid damage. Even the maneuvers tend to be more tactical and debuff style, which can still work in a party, but I'm not sure they can use their maneuvers often enough to really make a strong claim to a debuffer role.

    I suppose it makes me ask, is it really worth having a whole additional subsystem in play, for abilities balanced for per-encounter use that are being used at a per-day rate?
    Well, the point for having them be per-day rather than per encounter is that the original factotum only got up to 7th level spells rather than 9th level maneuvers. And didn't have soulmelds to bolster their abilities. But in considering actually playing one, I know I personally would love to be able to use my maneuvers more often. Do you think it's still balanced to let the maneuvers be per-encounter instead of per-day? I could reduce the progression to give fewer maneuvers, if that would help.

    The Extraction mechanic...I think suffers from the nature of D&D. It's very cool and I like how you integrated the various skills and force the opposition to use a lot of skills, giving a nice advantage to the dreamer despite the number of checks. It has the advantage that it isn't technically a divination (or Mind Affecting?), it's potentially subtle, and it can be used remotely. Even so, it's way less efficient than a lot of other magical ways to get information in D&D...even a bard with Suggestion and Modify Memory. It definitely has its niche, I'm just not sure how often that niche will come up in play. It just seems like in play it would be relegated to more of a flavor ability that might come up if the DM builds a challenge around it, rather than being the cornerstone of the class.
    Well, let me say that I never intended extraction to be a divination replacement, particularly not a quick-and-dirty one. It's more of a plot- and roleplaying-generating mechanism. You wouldn't be performing an extraction every adventuring day; instead, you might spend an entire gaming session roleplaying through an extraction when it's just the sort of subtlety you need. So yes, your instinct is correct, and exactly what I intended.

    I spent a lot of time working out the mechanics of a relatively situational ability... mostly because they're central to the concept of the class (and to the inspiration), and also to make them awesome for when they do happen.

    One actual mechanical problem, though, unless the first Gather Information check doesn't take time and only successive ones take normal time, that Extractions below Complexity 5 (DC 30) basically auto-fail, since you don't have enough time to make even a single Gather Information check (with successful Disguise and Forgery, you have a 50% chance that Complexity 4 will work).
    I can is maths good. I will up the durations in the complexity table.

    Overall, I like the class, but I definitely think it's going to be campaign-dependent. In a more urban/political game, it can be awesome. In a more traditional adventure setting, it has lots of utility, but I feel it might have trouble making reliable contributions, depending on optimization levels (it does have a high enough sheer volume of capabilities that I imagine it has a decently high optimization floor, so that will help).
    Perhaps if I change the maneuvers to per-encounter, that would help with the day-to-day contributions? Also, the soulmelds are likely to help with that as well. At least, I hope so.

    I'm glad you like it! I'll take a look at Neo when I get a chance (probably after Wednesday).
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Hm, I was thinking of doing a Percy Jackson one based off of the Percy Jackson movie but the movie kinda diverges from the books a lot and I was going to take some stuff thats book only. Would that be allowed? Or should it be only focused on the movies.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Well, the point for having them be per-day rather than per encounter is that the original factotum only got up to 7th level spells rather than 9th level maneuvers. And didn't have soulmelds to bolster their abilities. But in considering actually playing one, I know I personally would love to be able to use my maneuvers more often. Do you think it's still balanced to let the maneuvers be per-encounter instead of per-day? I could reduce the progression to give fewer maneuvers, if that would help.
    I think it would be okay. Maneuvers don't tend to be as powerful as spells at equal level, and these guys are limited to a single discipline, where factotums get the whole sor/wiz list.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Well, let me say that I never intended extraction to be a divination replacement, particularly not a quick-and-dirty one. It's more of a plot- and roleplaying-generating mechanism. You wouldn't be performing an extraction every adventuring day; instead, you might spend an entire gaming session roleplaying through an extraction when it's just the sort of subtlety you need. So yes, your instinct is correct, and exactly what I intended.

    I spent a lot of time working out the mechanics of a relatively situational ability... mostly because they're central to the concept of the class (and to the inspiration), and also to make them awesome for when they do happen.
    Gotcha. I wasn't actually quite sure how it would work, if it was meant to be a mission in itself (like the movie), or more of a, roll these checks, okay you succeed, you learn this. I was reading it more along the latter lines.

    Knowing it's the former, though, I wonder if maybe it would be worth revising to less about a single procedure, and more a selection of individual actions to use in Lucid Dreaming. So like, designing a maze, for example, might deny the target the normal bonuses for being in its own dreamscape for the duration, the Gather Information check could simply let you find specific pieces of information in the target's dreams, the Bluff check lets you avoid notice. Basically, keeping the functions largely the same, but...I guess presenting them more as discrete options that you can use tactically rather than as the rules for an Extraction Minigame. It would also open up some more options for higher-level abilities if you wanted to go that route...maybe a high-level Extractor could also plant information or even ideas in the target's "safe" or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Perhaps if I change the maneuvers to per-encounter, that would help with the day-to-day contributions? Also, the soulmelds are likely to help with that as well. At least, I hope so.
    That's what I'd figure. The Soulmelds will help (and I didn't study them in great detail, so I may have missed something), but they struck me as more utility-oriented. Most of the offensive ones seem to help you score hits, but not really make your hits much stronger (although, Daydream Gloves makes any sort of one-attack-per-round option quite attractive). So, I guess it's a question of just how big an effect those maneuvers will have.
    Last edited by Quellian-dyrae; 2012-12-02 at 11:48 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Hey, to let everyone know, I'm re-opening recruitment for a game, one of which's main features is that homebrew is heavily encouraged. Here, if anyone cares.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post
    I think it would be okay. Maneuvers don't tend to be as powerful as spells at equal level, and these guys are limited to a single discipline, where factotums get the whole sor/wiz list.
    Yeah, agreed. I've made the change; they are now per encounter rather than per day.

    Gotcha. I wasn't actually quite sure how it would work, if it was meant to be a mission in itself (like the movie), or more of a, roll these checks, okay you succeed, you learn this. I was reading it more along the latter lines.

    Knowing it's the former, though, I wonder if maybe it would be worth revising to less about a single procedure, and more a selection of individual actions to use in Lucid Dreaming. So like, designing a maze, for example, might deny the target the normal bonuses for being in its own dreamscape for the duration, the Gather Information check could simply let you find specific pieces of information in the target's dreams, the Bluff check lets you avoid notice. Basically, keeping the functions largely the same, but...I guess presenting them more as discrete options that you can use tactically rather than as the rules for an Extraction Minigame. It would also open up some more options for higher-level abilities if you wanted to go that route...maybe a high-level Extractor could also plant information or even ideas in the target's "safe" or whatever.
    Hey... that's a very cool idea, which fits even better with what I originally wanted. I think I'm going to try and implement it.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Archaeologist is up. Looking for balance; I already know his HD and BAB are probably too high, but I can't accept Indiana Jones as a d8 and 3/4 BAB.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Archaeologist is up. Looking for balance; I already know his HD and BAB are probably too high, but I can't accept Indiana Jones as a d8 and 3/4 BAB.
    Actually, he always looked to be a skill-monkey to me, but perhaps it's not high HP so much as a high AC. Perhaps a luck or dodge bonus to AC as a class feature?
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Quote Originally Posted by malonkey1 View Post
    Actually, he always looked to be a skill-monkey to me, but perhaps it's not high HP so much as a high AC. Perhaps a luck or dodge bonus to AC as a class feature?
    My interpretation is definitely also a skillmonkey and has ways to get his AC to decent levels. He seems to have high AC until he gets into a fistfight or dragged behind a truck. Basically, the director only let him dodge the stuff that would have killed him. He takes several pretty severe beatings throughout the movies.
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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Damn you! Now I have to do a class based on Johnny Mnemonic just so I can put

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    as my class quote...

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    Default Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

    Finished the soulmelds! I still have to do my rewrite of the Extraction mechanics, however...
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