Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

[sirpercival]

Too bad you weren't here for the space-themed contest. That would have fit perfectly. Still fits, though.

I'll nap after class, I said. I'll just stay up so I can continue studying, I said. MY EYES ARE DRY.

Yeah... that was before my time :)

[Fortuna]

Fluff is complete, Principles are complete, first Insights are posted... I could feel good about myself if not for how much more work everyone else has done.

[malonkey1]

Well, my class is up. Gotta work on writing up ALL the gadget descritions. If somebody could look at my class and tell me if the language is clear, that'd be awesome.

[sirpercival]

Alrighty, the base mechanics of the Astronomer are finished. I've started work on the Phenomena and Constellations, and the fluff will be added soon as well.

Someone already told me they want to play one in a PbP that's starting up, so I'm going to try and finish as quickly as possible. If anyone wants to take a gander at the mechanics, that would be lovely.

[thethird]

I'll give it a look once I finish my tea. Tea is serious business.

If someone wants to give a look to my verbosity, I mean the aperturing process I would really appreciate it. I might be too complex and I might be pretty bad at translating my thoughts.

[sirpercival]

I'll give it a look once I finish my tea. Tea is serious business.

Excellent! Make sure you reload the page (if you had it open already), I made a couple edits.

[thethird]

Astronomer

Relevant image

I conclude, therefore, that this star is not some kind of comet or a fiery meteor... but that it is a star shining in the firmament itself one that has never previously been seen before our time, in any age since the beginning of the world.

..

Adventures: ..

Characteristics: ..

Alignment: ..

Religion: ..

Background: ..

Races: ..

Other Classes: ..

Role: ..

Adaptation: ..

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Astronomers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Astronomers require a healthy measure of Intelligence to be able to understand the complex cosmic phenomena they observe, and a helping of Constitution to keep them hale and hardy while adventuring.
Alignment: Any, though as impartial scientists, Astronomers tend towards neutrality.
Hit Die: d6
Starting Age: As wizard.
Starting Gold: As wizard.

Class Skills
The Astronomer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device.

Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Everything fine up till here. UMD would need a (Cha) after it but it is minor nitpicking.

Astronomer
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Phenomena|Special
1st |+0 |+0|+0|+2 |4 | Observe phenomena, spyglass apprentice
2nd |+1 |+0|+0|+3 |5 | Star chart (least)
3rd |+1 |+1|+1|+3 |6 | Astrolabe technique
4th |+2 |+1|+1|+4 |7 | Orrey, sextant mastery
5th |+2 |+1|+1|+4 |8 | Spyglass initiate
6th |+3 |+2|+2|+5 |8 | Torquetum
7th |+3 |+2|+2|+5 |9 | Astrolabe technique
8th |+4 |+2|+2|+6 |10| Star chart (lesser)
9th |+4 |+3|+3|+6 |11| Spyglass journeyman
10th|+5 |+3|+3|+7 |12| Astrarium
11th|+5 |+3|+3|+7 |12| Astrolabe technique
12th|+6/+1 |+4|+4|+8 |13| Armillary sphere
13th|+6/+1 |+4|+4|+8 |14| Spyglass master
14th|+7/+2 |+4|+4|+9 |15| Star chart (greater)
15th|+7/+2 |+5|+5|+9 |16| Astrolabe technique
16th|+8/+3 |+5|+5|+10|16| Greater orrey
17th|+8/+3 |+5|+5|+10|17| Spyglass grandmaster
18th|+9/+4 |+6|+6|+11|18| Planisphere
19th|+9/+4 |+6|+6|+11|19| Astrolabe technique
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|20| Cosmos unbound, star chart (advanced)
[/table]

Cool no dead levels, I would also put the phenomena behind the class features (again this is nitpicking.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Astronomer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: An Astronomer is proficient with all simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields.

Observe phenomena (Su): When learning your trade under the watchful eye of prestigious scientists, you have learned that by and large the denizens of the world are woefully unobservant. Perhaps it is simply that the common folk are untrained, but from your experience there are strange and often dangerous astronomical phenomena happening every day. Why, you have simply to look through your spyglass to see something (usually quite painful) happen to your enemies out of the blue sky.

You can "observe" (read: create) effects called Phenomena by looking through a spyglass as a standard action. You are limited to observing phenomena that you know, and also by properties of your surroundings called Conjunctions. You may only observe phenomena whose Conjunctions are active, and once you observe a phenomenon, the active Conjunctions change, as described in the Phenomena descriptions below. You may observe a maximum of one phenomenon per round. Your Observer Level for phenomena is equal to your Astronomer level, and the save DC for any phenomena you observe is 10 + 1/2 Observer level + your Intelligence modifier. You may not observe a given phenomenon more than once per encounter.

You begin play knowing 2 phenomena from the list below, and learn more as shown on the table above. The only Conjunctions automatically active at the beginning of an encounter are the [Day], [Night], or [Sheltered] Conjunctions, which are generally obvious, and cannot be changed except by certain specific phenomena. Only one of those Conjunctions is active at any given time.

You can add a new Conjunction or change an existing Conjunction by making a Spot check (DC 10 + three times the number of already-active Conjunctions) through a spyglass as a move action. Conjunctions reset at the end of each encounter, and you can have a maximum number of Conjunctions active at any given time equal to half your class level (rounded down, minimum 1) active at any given time; if a Constellation or Phenomenon would increase the number of active Conjunctions past this limit, you choose which Conjunctions to deactivate. The [Day], [Night], and [Sheltered] Conjunctions do not count against this limit.[/quote]

Even if the [day], [night] and [shelter] are obvious I would define them somewhere.

Do those three conjunction [day], [night] and [shelter] count for determining the DC of adding more conjunctions? That would make the basic DC a 13.

Spyglass apprentice (Ex): Your most important tool is your spyglass, so the first thing you learn is how to make one quickly and cheaply, and how to use it effectively. You can make a masterwork spyglass (granting you a +2 circumstance bonus to Spot checks in addition to its normal effects) by spending 24 hours and using 100gp of raw materials. You cannot sell a spyglass you create this way for more than 100gp. In addition, you use your Intelligence bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for Spot checks made using a spyglass.

This is a source of cheap spyglasses. Since they normally cost 1000 gp having a lot more around for a cost 10 times lower, might be a bit destabilizing. It also works as a masterwork (better than masterwork tool actually) of spot. I would make it grant the +2 circumstance bonus to anyone using it, but key the spyglass effect and the Int instead of wisdom to you.

Star chart (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, you learn to make a Star Chart, which is a method of focusing on particular Constellations, stellar patterns in the sky. Once per day, you can study your Star Chart for 1 hour to focus on any Constellation (see Constellations, below). The Constellation you choose grants you the Least benefit (as described in the particular Constellation description), and also grants you a set of Conjunctions at the beginning of each encounter. At 8th, 14th, and 20th level, you unlock a new tier of Constellation benefits.

After 24 hours, without any intervention on your part, the heavens turn, and you automatically focus on the next Constellation in the progression, granting you the benefits and Conjunctions of that Constellation as normal. You can focus on a different Constellation after 8 hours of rest, by studying your Star Chart for another hour.

Cool

Astrolabe technique (Ex): An astrolabe is an inclinometer used by astronomers to predict the positions of celestial objects. At 3rd level, and again at every 4 levels afterwards, you use an astrolabe to learn a skill which will aid you in your studies of the heavens.

Astrolabe techniques:
Baade's Stars: You have discovered the source of violent energy in the Universe. You gain resistance to the energy type of your choice equal to your Intelligence modifier. You may select this technique multiple times, each time choosing a different energy type.

Cassini's Optics: You have studied the refractive properties of the atmosphere, granting you unparalleled visual awareness and acuity. You are immune to blindness, and may make a Spot check in place of any other Wisdom-based skill check a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier.

You can make lucid dreaming checks with spot checks (using int instead of wis) on an int focused class? The same for autohypnosis... It might be a bit strong.

Copernicus's Innovation: You have realized that your planet is not the center of the Universe, but merely a petal on a spinning flower. By spending a swift action to recenter yourself and gain perspective, you may gain a second save against a mind-affecting effect which affects you and has a duration longer than instantaneous. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Einstein's Experiments: You perform complex experiments using your mind alone. You can observe phenomena and add or change Conjunctions without using a spyglass.

Galileo's Resolution: You are adept at observing the heavens in great detail. You learn an additional phenomenon. You may select this technique multiple times, each time learning a new phenomenon.

Halley's Transits: You can use your ingenuity to determine the distance between you and your targets by observing the movement of objects between. You may use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier when making ranged attack rolls.

Herschel's Radiation: Your observations span the spectrum of light, granting you increased awareness of the events around you. You gain blindsense out to a radius of 5 feet times your Intelligence modifier (minimum 5 feet).

Hipparchus's Precession: Your awareness of the variability of systems lets you predict changes in your enemies' behavior. You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity from moving through threatened squares.

Hubble's Expansion: You have noticed that space is expanding, moving objects farther apart. Your base speed increases by twice your Intelligence modifier, rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5 feet.

Kepler's Mathematics: You have learned to calculate and draw inference from celestial arcs, applying rigorous scientific principles to your daily routine. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Constitution modifier to determine your bonus hit points for each of your Astronomer levels, beginning with the level that you gain this ability.

Int to hp? Thanks the cosmos that their class skill list is a bit limited (well they have UMD) but this leads to a good deal of int sadness.

Laplace's Probability: You understand the flows of probability which determine the course of events, allowing you to predict mathematically where your opponents are going to strike. You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when calculating your AC (situations which would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC, such as being flat-footed, deny you your Intelligence modifier instead).

Newton's Physics: Your scientific mind is beyond compare. Increase the DC of your observed phenomena by +1. You may select this technique multiple times; its effect stacks.

Ptolemy's Epicycles: You intuitively understand that motion is far more complex than most believe, and can use that to your advantage. You may use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making melee attack rolls.

Tycho's Measurements: You are the consummate observer, meticulous and thorough. Your mind processes information so precisely that it resists effects designed to alter it. You may apply your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier to your Will save bonus.

Some of this are pretty good and would make dipping this a really good idea for an Int SAD build. The names are awesome though.

Orrey (Ex): At 4th level, you construct a new device to aid you in your observations of the heavens. An orrey is used to demonstrate the motion of planets and moons through their orbits; using one allows you to predict certain types of phenomena with more regularity. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you may ignore 1 required Conjunction when observing a phenomenon.

I assume that you can only create one orrey, can you? Because if you construct them you might be able to construct as many orreys as you want and that would be complicated.

Sextant mastery (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, your experience with an astronomical sextant has reached the point where you can judge astronomical angles at a moment's notice. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you can add a Conjunction as a swift action instead of a move action, but the DC of the Spot check increases by 3.

I will make it also increase based on the number of conjunctions. Otherwise cool.

Spyglass initiate (Ex): At 5th level, you've practiced so much with your spyglass that you've learned to notice eddies in the air and other similar minutiae, even when creatures are invisible. When looking through a spyglass that you created, you can see invisible creatures (as per the see invisibility spell).

See invisibility is a 2nd level wiz spell, so it seems okay to me to have it at 5th lvl.

Torquetum (Ex): When you achieve 6th level or higher, you learn to compute using a torquetum, a mechanical instrument designed to take and convert measurements in different coordinate systems. By making use of such a device, your Star Chart becomes more efficient, and you can focus on two Constellations per day. Choose two Constellations to focus on when using your Star Chart ability. You gain the benefits of both Constellations at the same time, but only one set of Conjunctions at the beginning of each encounter. You can switch between the Conjunctions of your two chosen Constellations by spending 1 minute studying your Star Chart. After 24 hours, both Constellations progress as normal.

Again I am doubting the limitation on how many of this devices you can create, a note saying that you cannot benefit from using more than one would be nice.

Spyglass journeyman (Su): Starting at 9th level, your connection to your spyglass has taken on supernatural overtones, and you can use it to see far away places that wouldn't normally be visible to you. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you can produce a clairvoyance effect (as the spell, with a caster level equal to your Astronomer level) as a standard action by looking through a spyglass you created.

Again a 3rd level spell at 9th level seems completely cool.

Astrarium (Ex): Upon reaching 10th level, you learn to use an astrarium to predict eclipses and transits. A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, you may spend a full-round action to change the [Sheltered] Conjunction to either [Day] or [Night], as appropriate.

Again, this is using an "item" (how many items can you carry around) also I would specify a duration. And not a long one since you still have quite a lot of uses.

Armillary sphere (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, you graduate to the use of an armillary sphere, giving you a three-dimensional representation of the positions of celestial bodies. This allows to you to construct Star Charts of abundant accuracy and precision, granting you the ability to focus on three Constellations per day. This ability functions identically to the Torquetum ability, but with three Constellations instead of two.

Does it replace the Torquetum? I mean can you have an Armillary sphere and a Torquetum? They are class features but they are also items, and that might be a bit complicated. Perhaps upgrade the Torquetum into an Armillary sphere.

Spyglass master (Su): At 13th level, you have gained even more facility with your spyglass. Whenever you use your Spyglass Journeyman ability, you may gain the benefit of the scrying spell instead.

Cool

Greater orrey (Ex): When you achieve 16th level, your orrey grows in complexity and accuracy. When you use your Orrey ability, you may instead ignore up to 2 required Conjunctions.

Spyglass grandmaster (Ex): Upon reaching 17th level, you have achieved the pinnacle of your spyglass craft, and can use a spyglass . You can craft a spyglass in 1 hour, and whenever you look through normally through a spyglass you created (i.e., when you are not using your Spyglass Journeyman or Spyglass Master abilities), you gain the benefit of the true seeing spell.

So you can create spyglasses in an hour and then you can use them to cast scrying a number of times per day equal to your Int modifier multiplied by the number of spyglasses that you have. And they are pretty cheap at this level too. This is pretty great for divination (but I doubt this is what you were looking for).

Planisphere (Ex): A planisphere, which you learn to use at 18th level, is a device which combines the simplicity of a Star Chart with the versatility of an Astrolabe. When using a planisphere to construct your Star Chart, you are a model of efficiency, granting you the ability to focus on four Constellations per day. This ability functions identically to the Torquetum ability, but with four Constellations instead of two.

Again I would upgrade the armillary sphere.

Cosmos unbound (Su): You reach the pinnacle of your observational abilities at 20th level. You may observe a phenomenon at any distance, or across planar boundaries, if you have sufficient information to aim with. You can automatically target any square you can see, including squares you observe via scrying effects. If you cannot see your target but it is on the same plane, you must know its location relative to you (direction and distance) down to the exact 5-foot square.

To observe a phenomenon on a different plane, you must succeed at a DC 30 Knowledge (the Planes) check requiring study time (as shown in the table below) to determine the active Conjunctions at your target location. You may then make Knowledge (the Planes) checks in place of Spot checks to alter the Conjunctions, with a DC 10 higher than the normal Spot check DC. Each added or exchanged Conjunction requires one further hour of study. Additionally, each phenomenon observed on a different plane requires the [Center] Conjunction, which determines the point of origin of the phenomenon on that plane. The location of the point of origin is determined as per the plane shift spell. Once the [Center] location has been established, you treat the target as being on the same plane as you, that you cannot see.

{table=head]Plane|Study time
Material|1 day
Transitive Plane|1d4 days
Inner Plane|1d8 days
Outer Plane|2d6 days
The Far Realm|1d% days
[/table]

This is the first time that knowledge (the planes) appears in the class, it is cool though.

So basically this allows you to use the conjunctions in another plane, instead of where you are. I was under the assumption that conjunctions changed everyday; I hope they don't anymore since the check takes more than a day. I checked again and the conjuctions reset at the end of every encounter. So why would anyone use this capstone?

Overall it seems really attractive and surely has potential, I don't really get the capstone, I believe that some astrolabe techniques are a tad powerful, and the wording of some "item" dependent class features could be changed to clarify that you cannot use them more than the limited number of times per day if you have several items.

[sirpercival]

Thanks for the read-through!

I'm not sure how to make this clear, but other than the spyglasses which you actually have to use, the "items" in the other class feature only exist in fluff-space. That's why there are no crafting rules or effects for them. The ability allows you to do exactly what it says you can do; having multiples of {item} doesn't benefit you in the slightest.

Also, the abilities which let you use the spyglass for divination don't function per spyglass, it's based solely on you.

And the thing about cheap spyglasses is... there is absolutely no reason for spyglasses to be so prohibitively expensive. Their benefit is rather minor compared to the price, so it doesn't bother me to have 100gp spyglasses running around. Most commoners won't be able to buy them anyway, and you can't break the bank by selling them for more than they cost you to make.

For Sextant Mastery, the DC is already based on the number of other Conjunctions; this just increases it by 3 for that particular check.

More responses: Yes the class is SAD... is it problematically so? It has poor BAB... I can drop the hit die to d4, if that helps with the hit points thing. Also, I'll write a little clarification for the 3 basic conjunctions.

[thethird]

Yeah I don't have a problem with cheap spyglasses either.

The "items" on fluff space are cool too (although for the ones tat are improvement of previous class features I would actually replace them).

The SADness of the class is probably good as it is, the most broken stuff can probably be done via feats (faerie mysteries initiate) or are based on skill checks (such are lucid dreaming) that are broken on the first place.

Once the conjunctions and phenomens are up I will check those and give some more comments.

[Morph Bark]

...oh come on. My first serious entry in a competition for years and Morph's coming out of retirement? What a welcome party.

I admit, I had a chuckle. I'll take it as a compliment. I'm even nigh-tempted to sig it, which I rarely do.

Too bad you weren't here for the space-themed contest. That would have fit perfectly. Still fits, though.

I'll nap after class, I said. I'll just stay up so I can continue studying, I said. MY EYES ARE DRY.

I keep telling you, Temotei, you should sleep more on the right times! You worry me sometimes.


At any rate, I'll be going with a very modest concept for this challenge. Extremely modest even. Extremely modest, and evocative of terrible, terrible things.

And, occassionally, great ones.

Spoiler

Show

The Teacher.

Because hey, that's science too.

[Temotei]

I keep telling you, Temotei, you should sleep more on the right times! You worry me sometimes.

Sometimes the left times are the ones for me. I feel like a split personality. Left, right, fight the wight, up, down, do what's truly right. Sleep just doesn't fit into the rules; rest is the only thing for me--and my mules.

Hope you enjoyed this short rap, because if you didn't, I'll take an extra kneecap.

Spoiler

Show

The Teacher.

[FireInTheSky]

Re: Astronomer -

For the Star Chart levels, what about "Minor, Major, Nebula, Galaxy"?

[sirpercival]

Re: Astronomer -

For the Star Chart levels, what about "Minor, Major, Nebula, Galaxy"?

I like the way you think, though perhaps I will instead use Planet -> Star -> Cluster -> Galaxy.

[sengmeng]

Gluttonous Adept is up. I know that we didn't end up doing food as the theme, but it is tentatively tied to science (in the sense that he eats foes to gain knowledge, sort of a gastrointestinal experiment). Also, I just had such a fun time with his fluff I had to do it.

[sengmeng]

Gluttonous Adept is up. I know that we didn't end up doing food as the theme, but it is tentatively tied to science (in the sense that he eats foes to gain knowledge, sort of a gastrointestinal experiment). Also, I just had such a fun time with his fluff I had to do it.

Bump. I'd appreciate any PEACHes, and I wonder if Temotei is okay with this borderline breaking of the theme?

[FireInTheSky]

Astronomer

...

Observe phenomena (Su): ...

You begin play knowing 2 phenomena from the list below, and learn more as shown on the table above. In the beginning, the only Conjunction automatically active is a single Superior Conjunction ([Day], [Night], or [Sheltered]), which cannot be changed except by certain specific phenomena. The [Day] Conjunction is active during the day, the [Night] Conjunction is active at night, and the [Sheltered] Conjunction is active underground or indoors, where day and night are unclear.

You can add a new Inferior Conjunction or change an existing Inferior Conjunction by making a Spot check (DC 10 + twice the number of already-active Inferior Conjunctions) through a spyglass as a move action. Conjunctions reset at the beginning and end of each encounter, and you can have a maximum number of Inferior Conjunctions active at any given time equal to half your class level (rounded down, minimum 1) active at any given time; if a Constellation or Phenomenon would increase the number of active Inferior Conjunctions past this limit, you choose which Inferior Conjunctions to deactivate.

Redundant phrases are bolded.

Star chart (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, you learn to make a Star Chart, which is a method of focusing on particular Constellations, stellar patterns in the sky. Once per day, you can study your Star Chart for 1 hour to focus on any Constellation (see Constellations, below). The Constellation you choose grants you the Planet benefit (as described in the particular Constellation description), and also grants you a set of Inferior Conjunctions at the beginning of each encounter. At 8th, 14th, and 20th level, you unlock a new tier of Constellation benefits and Inferior Conjunctions.

After 24 hours, without any intervention on your part, the heavens turn, and you automatically focus on the next Constellation in the progression, granting you the benefits and Inferior Conjunctions of that Constellation as normal. You can focus on a different Constellation after 8 hours of rest, by studying your Star Chart for another hour.

So, for clarity, when you focus on a particular constellation, the level appropriate Inferior Conjunctions for that constellation are auto-activated at the beginning and end of each encounter, and all other ICs are deactivated?

[sirpercival]

Redundant phrases are bolded.

Why thank ye! Fixed.

So, for clarity, when you focus on a particular constellation, the level appropriate Inferior Conjunctions for that constellation are auto-activated at the beginning and end of each encounter, and all other ICs are deactivated?

Corrrrrrrrrect.

I'm going to be changing the format for phenomena slightly, just as a warning.

[Fortuna]

...gods dammit I forgot all about this. And now all the cool stuff has fallen out of my head.

Oh well. Guess I'd better get back into the swing of things. Rather than write more Insights, I'm going to make a start on fleshing out the rest of the class and clarifying Understandings.

[Fortuna]

If anyone would look over what I have thus far, and give me what critique they can offer, I'd be glad to reciprocate.

[Temotei]

If anyone would look over what I have thus far, and give me what critique they can offer, I'd be glad to reciprocate.

Since you said you'd critique the flamewaker, I figured I'd remind you of that by critiquing the savant.

Spoiler

Show

*Fluff*

Looks good. Show that arrogance in a quote and it'll be even better.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Savants have the following game statistics.
Abilities: The savant depends first and foremost upon Strength or Dexterity or even both, depending on his choice of combat style. Intelligence is a close second or third because of how it modifies insights. Finally, Constitution is as ever important for hit points, and Wisdom and Charisma can provide welcome bonuses to savants wishing to focus on the corresponding skills.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As barbarian.
Starting Gold: As fighter.

Seems fine.

Class Skills
The Savant's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...

Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

After reading through the class, I think they should have the following: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Also consider Speak Language (None).

You could also lower the skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier since they're so Intelligence-focused if you don't plan on having a bunch of class skills.

Alternatively, just give them all class skills like the factotum.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Savants are proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons. They are proficient with light armour, but not shields.

Looks fine.

All other class features go here (Use the format shown directly below if you don't know what to do.)!

Remove this.

Clarity (Ex): A Savant's mind does not work quite like most peoples'. As a free action, a savant can enter a state of heightened clarity. While in this state he gains a +6 insight bonus to Spot and Listen. He may also choose one of the three Principles - Precision, Speed, and Defence (see below). He gains that Principle's benefit as long as the state of clarity lasts. He may dismiss the clarity as a free action, and cannot sustain it longer than his level divided by two, round up. If he falls unconscious then the clarity immediately ends. Once the clarity subsides, he cannot reclaim it for a full minute.

The duration is in rounds, correct? State that. Also, do you choose a principle once and forever use that principle, or do you choose it upon every use of clarity?

Speed's benefit should be looked at, for sure. I'm assuming the additional attack roll is made at a -5 penalty like iterative attacks? It's not stated. Second, it says if you hit with the "lower" attack, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the original target. This implies that it's two separate attacks, not simply two attack rolls. Also, if so, does the lower attack actually deal damage aside from your Str or Dex modifier? Lastly, does the higher attack deal any damage?

Defence (it pains me to spell it this way): Does the attack happen directly after the opponent's attack? If so, just make it a no-action deal, because free actions can only be taken on a creature's own turn.

Weapon Familiarity (Ex): Training in a specific weapon seems pointless when one can simply find the correct techniques on a whim. When entering a state of clarity, any feats that the Savant may have which apply only to a chosen class of weapon apply to whatever weapons he may use (including unarmed strikes and grapples), so long as they are valid choices for that feat. For example, a second level savant has the feat Weapon Focus (longswords). While he is in a state of clarity, all of his attacks with any weapon, or even with unarmed strikes or grapples, gain +1 to attack. If he had both Weapon Focus (longswords) and Weapon Focus (longbows), he would gain the benefit only once, because Weapon Focus cannot stack with itself.

This looks good.

Focus (Ex): A savant can heighten their mind to impossible powers of deduction in a state of clarity, but they can also enter a lesser state, known as focus. This state may be entered as a full-round action, and lasts only long enough for the savant to attempt a single skill check (chosen when the state is entered) or apply an Understanding. If focus is used for a skill check, the savant counts as trained even if he is not, and may take ten regardless of circumstances. This state is taxing, and the savant is fatigued for five minutes at its conclusion - if he was already fatigued, he cannot achieve focus. While focusing, he takes a penalty to all checks other than the skill check or those required by the Understanding which he is applying equal to his class level, and is automatically flat-footed. Any attacks or non-opposed skill checks made against him during this period gain a bonus equal to his class level.

You'd think the savant would get better at avoiding danger while focusing with experience, rather than the other way around. Perhaps make it so the bonus for checks against him is a flat +4 or something? Although, Heal and helpful Use Magic Device checks would gain a bonus on him, as would the epic DC 80 use of Sleight of Hand, so that's nice.

Insights (Ex): As the Savant sees the world about him and comes to understand it, he begins to learn the nuances of the Principles. He learns Insights as indicated on the table. He may only learn a Insight if he has first learned all of its prerequisites. At the start of each of his turns while under the effect of Clarity, he brings one of his Insights into effect. He must already have all of the prerequisites in effect, as well as the benefit of that Insight's root Principle.

Do you automatically learn all insights you qualify for? It seems like that's not what you intended, given that some insights have previous ones as prerequisites (and that's it).

Does activating Studied Efficiency (Precision) take an action? It seems not. That's fine. This is mostly for clarification.

Can Subduing Technique (Precision) be used with sneak attack for extra nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon?

Vicious Blow (Precision) is going to be quickly outscaled by creatures' Fortitude saves if it's just modified by Int modifier. Adding a 1/2 class levels part would make it scale better for that, if you want it to.

Maybe rename Crippling Strike (Precision) to Crippling Blow because Crippling Strike is an existing feat? Your choice, but it would clear up confusion over that if anyone had any. It's also kind of weird that compared to Vicious Blow/Vicious Stance, despite it being a higher-level insight, even if the opponent is just sickened, Vicious Blow still applies a -2 penalty on a bunch of things that probably outweigh the Strength damage (3.5 average, which is about -2). The main difference is the duration, which sort of makes up for it, but at the same time, the penalty on saving throws might still beat out the damage because of helping out the spellcasters. Crippling Strike is also stuck being a full-round action.

Can you combine Knockout Blow (Precision) and Studied Efficiency (Precision)? What about those two and Subduing Technique (Precision) all together (amounting to 2d6 extra damage, made into lethal and nonlethal because of Knockout Blow along with a +1 on the attack)?

Does Rebound Strike (Speed) work with Speed's inherent benefit?

Understandings: Often, a savant can achieve insights and feats that seem impossible without even knowing how he does it himself. These abilities, known as Understandings, are freely available to all savants of sufficient level. In order to apply an Understanding, the savant must use his Focus ability and forgo the skill-related benefit in favour of the Understanding. Once the savant commits to an Understanding he may not take any other actions until it is activated without ruining the Understanding and spoiling his ability to focus for five rounds, during which time he suffers penalties as though still focusing on the Understanding. The savant is limited in his Understandings as shown on the table. Unless otherwise noted, Understandings are Extraordinary abilities.

Does Find Weakness work against all objects up to Medium size regardless of weight? Shatter has a weight limit, which is why I ask. If the weight limit exists, make sure to mention that your class levels count as caster levels for the purpose of that attack.

Is there any limit on how many rounds the savant can concentrate for Sense Disturbance?

Does the one-week study period in Study Foe assume the savant has nothing to go on in the first place? Does the +2 bonus stack with favored enemy if the savant is multiclassed into ranger?

Greater Focus (Ex): When a savant focuses on a skill check, they gain the bonus indicated on the table.

A'ight.

Dual Principle (Ex): While Clarity holds his mind, the Savant is able to see not merely the aspects of combat, but their interactions. When entering a state of Clarity, he may select two Principles instead of one, and gains the benefits of both while the Clarity lasts.

This clears up the issue about choosing one principle permanently or choosing one every time you enter clarity, though you'll still want to clean up clarity's wording. This allows insights to be used from both principles, correct? If that's the case, Rebound Strike (Speed) combined with Knockout Blow, Subduing Technique, and Studied Efficiency (all Precision) will do much more than intended, it seems, applying sneak attack to multiple enemies while also doing bonus nonlethal damage, assuming all of them can be used together.

Can you combine Defence's benefit with Rebound Strike (Speed), since it's an attack action (free action instead of no required action), after all?

Synthesis (Ex): Unlocking his potential, the Savant grasps for the first time the whole of his philosophy, rather than aspects of it. When entering a state of Clarity he gains the benefits of all three Principles.

Whoo.

True Focus (Ex): When focusing on a skill check, the savant may forgo the bonus to the check which he is entitled to have and instead replace his dice roll with a 30.

That's nice, though for a capstone, it's kind of okay. In the end, it's a +22 bonus if you were going to take 10 anyway, which is big, but it's a capstone...

Maybe add another capstone? Something that really adds to the class's flavor rather than just making the savant better at something they were already good at.

Really, the biggest issue with the class right now is finding interactions among insights and making sure they don't get out of hand. Work on those and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: I realized that my critique takes up a lot of space, so it's in spoilers now.

[Fortuna]

Since you said you'd critique the flamewaker, I figured I'd remind you of that by critiquing the savant.

Fair play. I'll get to that after I make a few clarifying edits. Further comments are bolded in my quote, because otherwise this would take up allthespace.

Spoiler

Show

Looks good. Show that arrogance in a quote and it'll be even better.

Casting around for one.

Seems fine.



After reading through the class, I think they should have the following: Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Also consider Speak Language (None).

You could also lower the skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier since they're so Intelligence-focused if you don't plan on having a bunch of class skills.

Skills remain something I'd like to think about, but I'll take your suggestions into consideration.

Alternatively, just give them all class skills like the factotum.

I don't want to do this, though Focus and its improvements are sort of a second place in that respect.

Looks fine.



Remove this.

Woops.

The duration is in rounds, correct? State that. Also, do you choose a principle once and forever use that principle, or do you choose it upon every use of clarity?

Thanks, I'll clarify that.

Speed's benefit should be looked at, for sure. I'm assuming the additional attack roll is made at a -5 penalty like iterative attacks? It's not stated. Second, it says if you hit with the "lower" attack, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the original target. This implies that it's two separate attacks, not simply two attack rolls. Also, if so, does the lower attack actually deal damage aside from your Str or Dex modifier? Lastly, does the higher attack deal any damage?

Ugh. I'll need to clean up the wording on this... the intent was similar to Shadow Blade Technique from Tome of Battle.

Defence (it pains me to spell it this way): Does the attack happen directly after the opponent's attack? If so, just make it a no-action deal, because free actions can only be taken on a creature's own turn.

It does. I've been playing 4e for too long.
And it's not my fault you crazy Americans spell it wrong.

This looks good.



You'd think the savant would get better at avoiding danger while focusing with experience, rather than the other way around. Perhaps make it so the bonus for checks against him is a flat +4 or something? Although, Heal and helpful Use Magic Device checks would gain a bonus on him, as would the epic DC 80 use of Sleight of Hand, so that's nice.

The intent was that at higher levels he becomes more intensely focused... but since that's not represented until Greater Focus, I'll include the scaling in that class feature.

Do you automatically learn all insights you qualify for? It seems like that's not what you intended, given that some insights have previous ones as prerequisites (and that's it).

No, you do not - I'm working on an Insights Known table, but it's nowhere near ready.

Does activating Studied Efficiency (Precision) take an action? It seems not. That's fine. This is mostly for clarification.

It does not, though it does take an action to reassign. I'll clarify.

Can Subduing Technique (Precision) be used with sneak attack for extra nonlethal damage with a lethal weapon?

Yes, it can - once again, I'll clarify.

Vicious Blow (Precision) is going to be quickly outscaled by creatures' Fortitude saves if it's just modified by Int modifier. Adding a 1/2 class levels part would make it scale better for that, if you want it to.

Good point. I'll consider, but I'll probably add in 1/2 level.

Maybe rename Crippling Strike (Precision) to Crippling Blow because Crippling Strike is an existing feat? Your choice, but it would clear up confusion over that if anyone had any. It's also kind of weird that compared to Vicious Blow/Vicious Stance, despite it being a higher-level insight, even if the opponent is just sickened, Vicious Blow still applies a -2 penalty on a bunch of things that probably outweigh the Strength damage (3.5 average, which is about -2). The main difference is the duration, which sort of makes up for it, but at the same time, the penalty on saving throws might still beat out the damage because of helping out the spellcasters. Crippling Strike is also stuck being a full-round action.

Rename will be done. And note that Crippling Blow/Strike can stack with itself indefinitely, while Vicious Blow/Stance are limited to one-off effects. I will probably include a higher-level Insight to reduce the action of Crippling Strike, but wanted to consider how high-level it should be.

Can you combine Knockout Blow (Precision) and Studied Efficiency (Precision)? What about those two and Subduing Technique (Precision) all together (amounting to 2d6 extra damage, made into lethal and nonlethal because of Knockout Blow along with a +1 on the attack)?

Knockout Blow and Studied Efficiency combine just fine. Subduing Technique should not allow you to make all of the damage one or the other - I will clarify that.

Does Rebound Strike (Speed) work with Speed's inherent benefit?

There's no reason why not.

Does Find Weakness work against all objects up to Medium size regardless of weight? Shatter has a weight limit, which is why I ask. If the weight limit exists, make sure to mention that your class levels count as caster levels for the purpose of that attack.

All Medium objects. Anything that the PCs get their hands on for half an hour could probably have been smashed up already.

Is there any limit on how many rounds the savant can concentrate for Sense Disturbance?

No limit.

Does the one-week study period in Study Foe assume the savant has nothing to go on in the first place? Does the +2 bonus stack with favored enemy if the savant is multiclassed into ranger?

Woops. The one week study period is a legacy from when I allowed no material as an option, but on reflection I decided it was silly and mostly removed it. The bonus should stack - I'll clarify.

A'ight.



This clears up the issue about choosing one principle permanently or choosing one every time you enter clarity, though you'll still want to clean up clarity's wording. This allows insights to be used from both principles, correct? If that's the case, Rebound Strike (Speed) combined with Knockout Blow, Subduing Technique, and Studied Efficiency (all Precision) will do much more than intended, it seems, applying sneak attack to multiple enemies while also doing bonus nonlethal damage, assuming all of them can be used together.

It does allow combining Insights from multiple principles. The issues with Rebound Strike can be cleared up by making it a volley-style attack to which Sneak Attack applies only once - I'll fix that up.

Can you combine Defence's benefit with Rebound Strike (Speed), since it's an attack action (free action instead of no required action), after all?

Hmm. You shouldn't be able to, but it's possible that with the present wording you can. I'll see if I can work out a way to clarify.

Whoo.



That's nice, though for a capstone, it's kind of okay. In the end, it's a +22 bonus if you were going to take 10 anyway, which is big, but it's a capstone...

Maybe add another capstone? Something that really adds to the class's flavor rather than just making the savant better at something they were already good at.

I intend to.

Really, the biggest issue with the class right now is finding interactions among insights and making sure they don't get out of hand. Work on those and you'll be fine.

Thanks. Yeah, that was always going to be the biggest challenge.

Hope this helps.

Sure did!

[Temotei]

Knockout Blow and Studied Efficiency combine just fine. Subduing Technique should not allow you to make all of the damage one or the other - I will clarify that.

Nah, see, Subduing Technique makes all of the damage nonlethal with a bonus 1d6 damage, but then Knockout Blow makes it so you roll twice for lethal and nonlethal, making all of the nonlethal also do lethal.

That's what I meant. It's fixed now, though.

[malonkey1]

APERTURER

It see0



I look forward to seeing it come to fruition and will gladly PEACH upon completion. And there will be cake.


0ms like an interesting concept.

[Morph Bark]

0what you did there. I see0

/isityodaorisitportals

[malonkey1]

I have the descriptions for the gadgets up. If there's somebody willing to PEACH it, I'd be happy to PEACH in return.

[Felyndiira]

I'm determined to actually finish my entry this time. 'Siren' was a bit too ambitious of a project during the army combat competition, and 'Weaver of Life' is only a little less so, but his phenotype list should be relatively short for each entry.

At least, I hope I can finish it this time. The legal-like terminology required, I think, is really much harder than writing the actual class.

*prays for motivation*

[Ra_Va]

New to making classes for the most part but I like where this is headed so far. Kinda ambitious with the whole 'stealing other races abilities' thing but hey SCIENCE! However I have a question.

Zarus' Snare: Creates a magic booby trap that has a Challenge Rating is 3 less than his character level or lower. He can also choose to double the number of traps by reducing the max CR of the traps by 2 per doubling (a 9th level Saint could create one CR 6 trap, two CR 4 traps, 4 CR 2 traps, or 8 CR 1 traps). +2 Damage if a non-human activates it.

I was wondering if there was a better way to do the Challenge Rating or if this is fine. Its decent and relatively simple to remember and use, and gives everyone a chance to actually find the trap but outside of epic levels... lets everyone find the trap. If its fine I'll let it go just popped into my head that rouges are the only class that can find a trap past CR 20, I believe it is, a CR only reached through epic levels by the current ability description.

If you have any other advice or critiques I would also be glad to see those.

[malonkey1]

Perhaps the scaling changes as you level up?

At first, the maximum is Lvl-3.
Later, it could become Lvl-1
Finally, it could increase to LVL+1. That way, at lower levels, everybody has a chance to find it, but higher-level traps will need specialization.

[Temotei]

Bump. I'd appreciate any PEACHes, and I wonder if Temotei is okay with this borderline breaking of the theme?

I'll take a look at it in a few hours. I've got a class today.

[sengmeng]

I'll take a look at it in a few hours. I've got a class today.

Excellent. I should have the Gluttonous Adept spells and feats up by then.