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Thread: Undead=Evil

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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Utopia is a myth.
    DnD is a means to create anything, if i want a Utopia, i can make one. it can exist within the realms of creation. it may not be complete or even perfect, but that doesn't mean it cannot exist. we make myths into gameplay all day, why not a perfect place within a world? you can say nothing is perfect, but you're not the DM, the one who decides what fits into his world. Just because our real world doesn't have room for utopia, doesn't mean a fantasy world can't. Logic means exactly squat when magic and gods can turn the world inside out.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    One easy justification for why undead might be automatically evil is the fact that they're cut off from the collective source of life - essentially they have a hole in their soul, a palpable emptiness that makes every living thing seem alien to them, making empathy impossible and filling them with hatred for those that seem to mock their existence by looking similar but having something they've lost forever (much the way the living feel about the undead except in reverse). Spite, envy, xenophobia, and disgust for the squishy biological processes and touchy-feely emotions of the living can all be factors for the "default" undead mindset, if you wish to exploit it.

    In my setting clerics have access to four forms of energy instead of two, and either Negative or Temporal energy can be used to raise undead. An Evil cleric who calls Negative energy creates and controls undead who are inherently malevolent with very few exceptions, but a Lawful Neutral or even Lawful Good cleric can raise more sterile undead to use as worker constructs, and intelligent nonevil undead are possible, though a Lawful mindset is virtually impossible for them to avoid since they're literally stuck time, unable to truly grow as individuals.

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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    DnD is a means to create anything, if i want a Utopia, i can make one. it can exist within the realms of creation. it may not be complete or even perfect, but that doesn't mean it cannot exist. we make myths into gameplay all day, why not a perfect place within a world? you can say nothing is perfect, but you're not the DM, the one who decides what fits into his world. Just because our real world doesn't have room for utopia, doesn't mean a fantasy world can't. Logic means exactly squat when magic and gods can turn the world inside out.
    There is truth in this statement.

    But up to this point we've been using logic as the basis for both sides of the undead should(n't) be evil debate. I don't see any solid reason to throw it out now.

    Incidentally, there is something pretty close to utopia in print. Take your pick from Arcadia, Celestia, and (to a lesser extent) Bytopia, or even Mechanus. Though in all of those cases my point stands since the creatures that make up these societies are immortal creatures with no biological needs to speak of.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    There is truth in this statement.

    But up to this point we've been using logic as the basis for both sides of the undead should(n't) be evil debate. I don't see any solid reason to throw it out now.
    i acknowledge this and accept this. you argue with logic in mind (a boon), but i was trying to say it was still possible, without standard rules/guidelines that the world provides normally. I became overzealous on my point, logic be damned. (evil pun, seeing the topic of the discussion)
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    DnD is a means to create anything, if i want a Utopia, i can make one. it can exist within the realms of creation.
    Dystopias are more fun to play in though.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    i acknowledge this and accept this. you argue with logic in mind (a boon), but i was trying to say it was still possible, without standard rules/guidelines that the world provides normally. I became overzealous on my point, logic be damned. (evil pun, seeing the topic of the discussion)
    It happens to us all sometimes. It shouldn't take long for anyone to notice I'm a staunch defender of the alignment system and I've occasionally gotten a bit carried away. Passion is a good (english usage, not alignment comment) thing, as long as it doesn't get out of hand too often. I wish I had an easier time shutting down my own logical processes sometimes though. Willing suspension of disbelief gets proportionally more difficult as the subject matter gets closer to reality for me. You don't get much closer than a socialogical discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by hoverfrog View Post
    Dystopias are more fun to play in though.
    Agreed. They're easier to build too. A bit of logic and some knowledge of historic rebellions/revolutions and you can cobble something together in half an hour or so.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-09 at 04:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Even in a civilization where noone ever has to lift a finger except to grasp the doohicky that controls their own personal skeleton, society will stratify. People will invariably try to put themselves ahead of those that are ostensibly, and legally, their equals. At least a portion of the populace will try to do this by achieving greater political clout. If the laws don't recognize this clout then they'll move it behind closed doors until they can arrange to have the law changed. This is inescapable, because after you dig all the way down through the layers of the psyche to find this phenomenon's ultimate motivation you're going to hit instinct. It's ultimately cause by the drive to reproduce in the living and the lingering psychology that was based on that same desire to reproduce in the intelligent undead.

    In any society somebody's at the bottom, and being at the bottom stirs up feelings that result in chaos. Then of course there are the people that refuse to conform to society just to be different or to entertain themselves. These instabilities will always create conflict, and will invariably bring your society crumbling down around you if they're not carefully monitored and controlled. Ultimately though, something will slip through the cracks and the chaos will reach a boiling point where it can no longer be controlled. All civilizations fall.
    Some people will always be at the bottom. This is the reason why I acknowledge the existence of surfs, of slaves and metics is a highly likely possibility in this kind of society. Plus people need more than bread and circuses. They need something that theirs, something to work for.

    As part of the social control system I think some kind of hideously twisted variant of the American dream could be the answer. "work hard In school kids and if you want it bad enough you to could become an abominable blasphemy in the sight of all that's holy!"

    I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but this is laughably untrue, unless you hand-waive it for the campaign. The fact that the ruling body is composed of people that can't just be waited out means that political maneuvering and backstabbing will be that much more rife than they would be amongst the living. Worse, virtually all of the upper echelons of society have a myriad of supernatural and/or spell-like abilities to complicate security and counter security further. This causes headaches for the law-enforcement too. If the appointments of officials are supposed to be permanent, you even get wonderful little power vaccums if someone dies unexpectedly without naming a successor, something that they're less likely to do because the official A) doesn't plan on dying ever, and B) understands that naming a successor gives that successor a very solid motivation for his removal. (this statement should be read more as politicians are evil than undead are evil, FYI.)
    Nice, good spot that man. A totally unintended source of plot hook and intrigue. Hooray! assassinations for everybody. But in all seriousness their is a marked difference between a culture where "honor" dueling, political intrigue and laser guided cluster stabbage is the norm and a society where nobles routinely declare near total war against each other. Its because its someone else problem as long as my taxes don't go up, my farm doesn't get pillaged and my children aren't conscripted for some meaningless slaughter.

    A perfectly stable, efficient, and equal society just isn't possible as long as you're working with creatures that are, or once were, living.
    I am no going for perfection, just interesting. I want complexity, I want Internal contradiction and I want plot hook ...lots and lots of plot hook.


    And that's without even touching religion, something that has proven itself to be impossible to stamp out in a world where there's no tangible proof of any religion's veracity.
    Score: Paladins under the bed. I can just imagine the trials now... "Do you or have you ever been affiliated with a religious organization?" "Is there no decency left?!"

    Utopia is a myth.
    Dystopias are more fun to play in though.
    What about constantly subverting your ideas and presumptions of both. A society which on the surface looks pretty evil but when you get to know it better "seem" to be actually not too bad in principle. On closer examination however their is trouble in "paradise" only the locals are to obsessed with towing the party line to see it. Not a bad metaphor for the practical application of communism/democracy.
    Last edited by Blightedmarsh; 2012-10-09 at 05:04 AM.

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    @ 'marsh's response to my succession war comment:

    It's only somebody else's problem until political infighting weakens the governing body to the point that outside forces can start to make serious headway in undermining their authority or overrunning the border. Spies and sabatuers can complicate the political landscape even further with an eye toward deliberately creating blind-spots or simply weakening the government in preparation for either fommenting an uprising of the populace or starting a more conventional war.

    Skilled politicians know that a secret war should always be used before, or in place of, a traditional one whenever possible. Bonus points: a secret war makes for great gaming.

    @ the rest of 'marsh's post:

    You're definitely getting an interesting setting together. The further you develop it the more I like it so far.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Those are necessarily small job markets though, unless each artifact is only tied to a handful of "workers." If that's the case then the cost will rapidly become a problem, and "workers" being stolen will be that much more likely. And what happens when one of these devices breaks? Accidents happen and in this case accidents result in a group, possibly a large group, of dangerous creatures being set free to run amuck, until they can be contained and either destroyed or recaptured. At least with machinery accidents don't result in the machine actively seeking to kill people.
    I Think that these control artifact would be rented out to people/businesses by registered necromancers. They would control no more that a score of undead and would have a serial number stamped into each talisman. This would be a major source of revenue for the state and the low taxes that this (amongst other things) would allow would be good for the economy.

    I can also well imagine a limited charge summon/control device being sold to adventurers or a rechargeable version issued to military NCO's and public works officers.

    I do imagine that many skeletons would be stock piled in cold storage as a kind of strategic/economic reserve. Most of the time bodies would be used as magical reagents or focuses.

    ******

    Remember when I said that the souls of the citizenry are tied to the artifacts, heirlooms, monuments and buildings of the land? Well tying the non citizens to their own bones and using them would be the entry level of this. To have better would require that you are deemed to have contributed more, earned better in this life for your next. Note that this may lead to a caste system if you wanted to spin it that way.


    It's only somebody else's problem until political infighting weakens the governing body to the point that outside forces can start to make serious headway in undermining their authority or overrunning the border. Spies and sabatuers can complicate the political landscape even further with an eye toward deliberately creating blind-spots or simply weakening the government in preparation for either fommenting an uprising of the populace or starting a more conventional war.
    Nice... Plot hook. Still it requires an outside actor or Cesar figure. It is very different from the waring states vibe I was considering when I wrote about succession.

    Skilled politicians know that a secret war should always be used before, or in place of, a traditional one whenever possible. Bonus points: a secret war makes for great gaming.
    A ruthless, cutthroat, Machiavellian, Byzantine bulpit of a political system should make an excellent training ground for those skilled politicians then. Particularly if they have to go through centenaries of paying their dues to get to the top flight.
    Last edited by Blightedmarsh; 2012-10-09 at 05:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Blightedmarsh View Post
    I Think that these control artifact would be rented out to people/businesses by registered necromancers. They would control no more that a score of undead and would have a serial number stamped into each talisman. This would be a major source of revenue for the state and the low taxes that this (amongst other things) would allow would be good for the economy.

    I can also well imagine a limited charge summon/control device being sold to adventurers or a rechargeable version issued to military NCO's and public works officers.
    There's still the cost issue, but this at least provides a solid way to recoup the cost over time. I'm still concerned about breakage and other losses of control, say a dispelling for instance.

    I do imagine that many skeletons would be stock piled in cold storage as a kind of strategic/economic reserve. Most of the time bodies would be used as magical reagents or focuses.
    Do you mean skeletons as remains, or animate skeletons? I'm trying to make sure I've got a clear picture here.


    Remember when I said that the souls of the citizenry are tied to the artifacts, heirlooms, monuments and buildings of the land? Well tying the non citizens to their own bones and using them would be the entry level of this. To have better would require that you are deemed to have contributed more, earned better in this life for your next. Note that this may lead to a caste system if you wanted to spin it that way.
    How do you plan on going about this? or are you just fluffing it that animation binds the spirit of the deceased even if the undead is mindless?

    Nice... Plot hook. Still it requires an outside actor or Cesar figure. It is very different from the waring states vibe I was considering when I wrote about succession.
    A cesar figure isn't really necessary. The governing body as a whole can be weakened regardless of whether its an autocracy an oligarchy or even a republic or democracy. You've already made enemies of practically the entire cosmos outside of the material, there should be no shortage of outside enemies, and lets not forget the material plane organizations that want your land and property for more mundane reasons. A world at peace is probably a dead one.



    A ruthless, cutthroat, Machiavellian, Byzantine bulpit of a political system should make an excellent training ground for those skilled politicians then. Particularly if they have to go through centenaries of paying their dues to get to the top flight.
    Its not necessary, and it's a terrible government for the people, but it makes for great gaming if you're into the cloak and dagger stuff.

    Btw, am I reading you correctly that you're positting this as a full-on nation? I had been imagining it more as a city-state up until the post before last.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-09 at 05:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Suddenly an entire country of necromancers, death knights, vampires, lich's, ghouls, wights, wraiths, ghosts, and brain-in-a-jars alongside living races that can swing any alignment and break the typical necropolis cliche of stockpiling peoples brains and souls for currency for the sake of (even if just an illusion) of unity? Sounds fun to me. I call dhampir.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2012-10-09 at 05:53 AM.

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    I'm still concerned about breakage and other losses of control, say a dispelling for instance.
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    Do you mean skeletons as remains, or animate skeletons? I'm trying to make sure I've got a clear picture here.
    Magically prepared disarticulated (for increased storage capacity) skeletons cataloged and placed in sealed vaults. There is an actual word for a RL thing but I can't spell.


    How do you plan on going about this? or are you just fluffing it that animation binds the spirit of the deceased even if the undead is mindless?
    In a word ...Yes. The fluff is that they use a similar process to what the regular citizens undergo. Whether that is the actual fact or if its just a line they spin for the non-citz is another question entirely.


    [quote]A cesar figure isn't really necessary. The governing body as a whole can be weakened regardless of whether its an autocracy an oligarchy or even a republic or democracy. You've already made enemies of practically the entire cosmos outside of the material, there should be no shortage of outside enemies, and lets not forget the material plane organizations that want your land and property for more mundane reasons. A world at peace is probably a dead one.[quote]

    Never underestimate peoples ambition. No matter how much one has they will always want more. Even if all their fighting over is a higher spot on the sinking ship. (however I think I did say OR).

    Its not necessary, and it's a terrible government for the people, but it makes for great gaming if you're into the cloak and dagger stuff.
    As long as the trains run on time. It just has to be a fun (and preferably immersive) game; all else is secondary.


    EDIT

    It would probably start out as a city state and grow from there. Whether as a fractious alliance of city states, a small nation, a patchwork of elector states or as a full blown unitary empire would be very much up to the DM.

    This set up is under siege, it goal is universal dominion. It must expend or die and thus could well begin to suffer what I call the "disease of bigness". As a result it could well fluctuate between two or more of these scenarios.

    If their was a "necropolitan empire" that was destroyed a few thousand years ago then it could well be that their are a number of embattled vestiges in isolated or defensible locations. It would also allow for haunted ruins, SEIAC ancient strategic reserves and a lot of lost artifacts that all sides would want to recover (one set to destroy the other to reclaim).
    Last edited by Blightedmarsh; 2012-10-09 at 06:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Oh dear god unhealthy thought. Zombie prostitutes. Excuse me. /vomits entire set of internal organs out.

    Also interesting thought, but perhaps you could make a special form of the phylactery for citizens of this nation to keep there souls bound to there corpse? It would allow there mental stats, memories, etc to stay within a normally mindless undead and there old class levels, etc. So you might find preserved zombie shop keepers who died 50 years ago from drinking to much/etc who act like they never died, still boastful and trying to haggle peoples to the last copper. I believe there was a material from forgotten realms that could be made into a dagger that could store the soul of the last person you killed near it. Something like that could be used, sealed to keep the soul permanently inside (with the owner willing) and put on or in a zombie or skeleton to keep them "alive".

    It could even be fairly cheap and allow the skeletons and zombies in the cities/etc to retain free will or allow them to make more intelligent decisions while under a necromancers direct control/orders. Suddenly you have an entire royal guard made up of zombies and wizards who are just as fearsome as any other master warriors/archmagi/etc of the living without having to go threw lichdom/deathknight bs.

    Book of Vile Darkness had simular templates - Corpse Creature and something else for the skeleton, they retained intelligence/class levels.

    Oh, and as a added benefit, permanent gentle repose. If a citizen is gonna spend 500-1,000 gold for a "continue on living" button, they likely wish to do so as life-like as possible for as long as possible.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2012-10-09 at 06:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Oh dear god unhealthy thought. Zombie prostitutes. Excuse me. /vomits entire set of internal organs out.

    Also interesting thought, but perhaps you could make a special form of the phylactery for citizens of this nation to keep there souls bound to there corpse? It would allow there mental stats, memories, etc to stay within a normally mindless undead and there old class levels, etc. So you might find preserved zombie shop keepers who died 50 years ago from drinking to much/etc who act like they never died, still boastful and trying to haggle peoples to the last copper. I believe there was a material from forgotten realms that could be made into a dagger that could store the soul of the last person you killed near it. Something like that could be used, sealed to keep the soul permanently inside (with the owner willing) and put on or in a zombie or skeleton to keep them "alive".

    It could even be fairly cheap and allow the skeletons and zombies in the cities/etc to retain free will or allow them to make more intelligent decisions while under a necromancers direct control/orders. Suddenly you have an entire royal guard made up of zombies and wizards who are just as fearsome as any other master warriors/archmagi/etc of the living without having to go threw lichdom/deathknight bs.

    Book of Vile Darkness had simular templates - Corpse Creature and something else for the skeleton, they retained intelligence/class levels.

    Oh, and as a added benefit, permanent gentle repose. If a citizen is gonna spend 500-1,000 gold for a "continue on living" button, they likely wish to do so as life-like as possible for as long as possible.
    This actually sounds alot like a refluff of libris mortis' necropolitan template, maybe with a few tweaks.

    But isn't making all the undead in the society intelligent kind of getting away from the original idea a bit too much?

    Edit: re; zombie hookers: That's just plain nasty. I don't care how good the embalmers are. What in the world brought that thought to mind?

    Edit 2: re; 'marsh's comment about the scope of his necrotheist society:

    Over-expansion is definitely one of the biggest contributors to the fall of empires. Seems like the particular version you prefer is an empire in decline rather than a standing nation. Extra chaos = extra fun, being the idea?
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-09 at 06:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Well "Decline" is "Growth" for a necromantic empire if you consider it. Oh, we lost a war. Better reanimate twice as many soldiers then we lost. Oh, we had a famine. Guess we needed more street cleaners and farmers.

    I just realized necromancers are the most optimistic people in the universe.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2012-10-09 at 06:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Also interesting thought, but perhaps you could make a special form of the phylactery for citizens of this nation to keep there souls bound to there corpse? It would allow there mental stats, memories, etc to stay within a normally mindless undead and there old class levels, etc. So you might find preserved zombie shop keepers who died 50 years ago from drinking to much/etc who act like they never died, still boastful and trying to haggle peoples to the last copper. I believe there was a material from forgotten realms that could be made into a dagger that could store the soul of the last person you killed near it. Something like that could be used, sealed to keep the soul permanently inside (with the owner willing) and put on or in a zombie or skeleton to keep them "alive".
    Citizens have at least part of their souls bound to the material culture of the city. For example an journeyman sculptor works on his masterpiece. Upon completion he has a peace of his spirit bound within it when he donates his work to the city in exchange for his official and civic recognition as a master sculptor

    They then reincarnate as new people upon death (the messy way, not the magic revive character way). Memories, personality and experiences would be more or less lost ...but it might be possible to get flashes of what you where through dreams or when in contact with an artifact that holds a proportion of your soul.

    I like the idea of ideas, memories, skills and experiences being directly recorded and preserved in archives (some of which may be open to the public, others available by special permission and still others sealed as most secret).

    If you where willing to under go the ritual, if it where felt that you had earned it, if you had an "elder" willing to sponsor and if you managed to pass an interview and vetting procedure you would be made a into some kind of sentient undead as befits your role and status.


    Over-expansion is definitely one of the biggest contributors to the fall of empires. Seems like the particular version you prefer is an empire in decline rather than a standing nation. Extra chaos = extra fun, being the idea?
    It helps to explain why people would hate necromancy but also why they are not the absolute terror of the world.

    I just realized necromancers are the most optimistic people in the universe.
    They would have to be goers to take on the universe.
    Last edited by Blightedmarsh; 2012-10-09 at 06:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blightedmarsh View Post
    Citizens have at least part of their souls bound to the material culture of the city. For example an journeyman sculptor works on his masterpiece. Upon completion he has a peace of his spirit bound within it when he donates his work to the city in exchange for his official and civic recognition as a master sculptor

    They then reincarnate as new people upon death (the messy way, not the magic revive character way). Memories, personality and experiences would be more or less lost ...but it might be possible to get flashes of what you where through dreams or when in contact with an artifact that holds a proportion of your soul.

    I like the idea of ideas, memories, skills and experiences being directly recorded and preserved in archives (some of which may be open to the public, others available by special permission and still others sealed as most secret).

    If you where willing to under go the ritual, if it where felt that you had earned it, if you had an "elder" willing to sponsor and if you managed to pass an interview and vetting procedure you would be made a into some kind of sentient undead as befits your role and status.
    This is an interesting enough idea that I'm probably going to look into whether or not it can be done with existing rules. I suspect so, though I'm not sure why.

    On that last bit, don't forget that there will be outlaws that try to circumvent the normal procedures in one way or another, and have you considered undead immigration? A society that has undead creatures running it will appear as a haven to other undead whether that's actually the government's intent or not.
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    On that last bit, don't forget that there will be outlaws that try to circumvent the normal procedures in one way or another, and have you considered undead immigration? A society that has undead creatures running it will appear as a haven to other undead whether that's actually the government's intent or not.
    Had not thought about immigration of the undead. It would have to be sentient free roaming dead with no ties to the gods or independent necromancers. Wouldn't imagine that their are enough of them to cause a problem by I do like the concept of a "corpus ghoul auxilia".

    There are always outlaws on everything. Would make an interesting character concept or plot hook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blightedmarsh View Post
    Had not thought about immigration of the undead. It would have to be sentient free roaming dead with no ties to the gods or independent necromancers. Wouldn't imagine that their are enough of them to cause a problem by I do like the concept of a "corpus ghoul auxilia".

    There are always outlaws on everything. Would make an interesting character concept or plot hook.
    I brought up outlaws because whenever you have to create a law about something that peculiar, it bears thinking about how exactly one goes about breaking and/or circumventing that law as well as default punishments for those that break that particular law.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-09 at 07:01 AM.
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    As the point of the culture is to create an artificial cycle of rebirth the strongest penalty would be excommunication from this. The phrase "Gods take you!" springs to mind.

    An atypical crime would be trafficking with outsiders (being a cleric/paladin/favored soul/diabolist or warlock).



    Strange thought. The necropolis is a sort of genius locci, its chock full of spirits and awakened or sub sentient artifacts. If these formed a subsentient gasalt could the necropolis be used as a source for semi divine/ urban primal spell casting? would it be a viable partner for some sort of urban pact warlock?

    The next big question is can the entire city "awaken" as a sentient gasalt entity and what would that mean for the society?

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    Here's one idea i'm considering using to address the issues:
    You need a vessel and a spirit to animate something.
    A body is a vessel;
    the spirits used to animate undead come from the lower planes, lemures or their equivalents. Thus justifies all undead and their creation being evil. This is done because it's cheap. The lower planes provide these spirits at low low prices (25 gp/hit die for some!). While the spirits may be lemures, the providers are higher-ups in the evil system, who have the authority to rent out these souls.

    You can also animate using elemental spirits (like golems), or wholly artificial spirits (some other constructs). It's possible to animate a body using the same processes as construct animation, it's just a LOT more expensive (several hundred gp per hit die); as such most people use the evil option.
    Other aligned spirits (good, neutral, etc) can be used, but it tends to be a lot harder/expensive; and a lot more selective about who they're willing to work/provide spirits for.

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    Thats a completely different take on it and would remove the elements of necromancy from the process as it was originally intended - now its less about using negative energy and more like a form of lesser conjuration (summoning a possessive spirit to a corpse). That would fit better for a horror game or something, but would not fit the necromancy school. Even if 3.0+ ruined necromancy to make it "BBEG Ammo only" and removed positive energy from it, that would not justice necromancy suddenly popping demons out of nowhere to shove in corpses or having a connection to demons in any form; especially considering demons are NOT picky about what type of magic they use or corrupt and they do not have any connection to negative energy or necromancy in particular (Except orcus, but hes an UNDEAD demon, and a very very rare exception to the rule) - especially considering negative energy would just as happily devour, decay, and obliterate demons and devils from the universe along with all other living matter.


    Also about the awakened society/core - one thing in particular comes to mind. The mythals or whatever from forgotten realms the elves use to use epic spells with, and the netheresse. Now picture them with the stored memories of a couple hundred thousand citizens. Behold. We are legion. It would likely be neutral/friendly with the people living near it/in it because, after all, a good percentage of them would be family to the memories/souls within the city/core, and would want to protect them by any means necessary... it would, in essence, be a man-made god with enough souls added to it, and would perhaps draw ancestor worship?
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2012-10-09 at 07:55 AM.

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    Slightly off topic but it seems that some evil necromancers have slaughtered entire cities full of people in Azeroth. This is the kind of thing that gives necromancy a bad name.

    It isn't the reanimation of bones and corpses that is so bad but using these and their other powers to kill people. Even a 1 HD skeleton is more than a match for a 1st level warrior. When your raw materials are the bodies of those killed then it has got to make people a bit wary of you.
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    Default Re: Undead=Evil

    Undeath and necromancy in azeroth are actually specifically tied to demons as they were, for a long time, the "soften them up" option the burning legion threw at worlds to prepare them for there invasions, and thus have direct and strong demonic ties.

    However, after that bond between them was severed by the orcish shaman who became the "Lich King" before arthas, and then when arthas/lich king became weak for a but a moment and lost control of many of those undead, look at how many undead became neutral or even good in azeroth, such as many of the forsaken who retain there past memories. That proves that without the demonic or corruptive influence mass-controlling them, they were not innately evil.

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    If nothing else it makes for an interesting NPC if you find a good wight or even awakened skeleton (vampires and liches have already been done to death ). You can't really do that if the power that animates then stems from a realm of unspeakable evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoverfrog View Post
    If nothing else it makes for an interesting NPC if you find a good wight or even awakened skeleton (vampires and liches have already been done to death ). You can't really do that if the power that animates then stems from a realm of unspeakable evil.
    Wights are a wickety case because according to RAW, any creature slain by Negative Levels rises as a wight unless something specifies otherwise. Succubus gives you a night of passion that's to die for? You're a wight. Warlock uses an Utterdark Blast on you every 6 seconds for twelve hours straight until you finally fail all the saves? You're a wight. Energy drain, another wight plays pattycake with you, even if you're Evil and dumb enough to pick up more than your HD worth of Holy equipment - there are many ways to become a wight, almost all of them unpleasant, and when you die from a source that's nearly always flavored as something siphoning the life out of you, I really have a hard time seeing how you'd get up on the Good side of the grave the next evening.

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    In the same way that vampire spawn freed when their master dies I can see wight spawn choosing a path of redemption after the destruction of their own master. Absolutely would it be an extremely rare, perhaps even unique, occurrence but in my games if I can think of a good story to back it up then I'm not going to let little things like logic, reason and the rules interfere with it.
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    ACTUALLY I have seen a single case of a premade module with a good aligned, or at least neutral, wight. I forgot the name of the module but effectively there was like.. 6-9 children in a village that got wiped out who were all murdered by a undead creature and tortured/etc. There corpses came back as wights and they "mimiced" what they did in life. They were not violent/etc at all, but when they tried to 'play' with the pc's they would drain levels by accident, not threw evil intentions. Kinda sad really.

    Also good example of a ghost - whats her face from carrion crown, adventure path 1, wife of the warden of the jail. I have not read beyond part 1 of the adventures, so I dunno, but I would be willing to bet there are other good-aligned undead/odd balls in it.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2012-10-09 at 10:10 AM.

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    Ghosts are a special case IMO; I don't even know that they ought to be undead, the "deathless" of BOXD are just as valid and there's little in-universe reason to distinguish them. Really though I'm more inclined to treat all lingering souls as their own separate thing...it makes sense that they can be Turned, but I definitely don't think they're Evil any more often than Good, they can be clinging to the mortal coil for any of a thousand reasons, and at most being powered by negative energy would slightly incline them toward either deliberate spite or reckless endangerment (all their efforts to reuinte with their family going horribly wrong due to their own tainted nature, very tragic stuff). If it was narratively convenient at all, I probably wouldn't hesitate to ditch this altogether, and have a ghost acting like Ben Kenobi in the Empire Strikes Back, just kinda chilling out and chatting up the heroes with random advice since that's all he's capable of anymore.

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    Also about the awakened society/core - one thing in particular comes to mind. The mythals or whatever from forgotten realms the elves use to use epic spells with, and the netheresse. Now picture them with the stored memories of a couple hundred thousand citizens. Behold. We are legion. It would likely be neutral/friendly with the people living near it/in it because, after all, a good percentage of them would be family to the memories/souls within the city/core, and would want to protect them by any means necessary... it would, in essence, be a man-made god with enough souls added to it, and would perhaps draw ancestor worship?
    I don't know about neutral or friendly, few things are more terrifying than the faceless mob.

    I don't think that the gasalt would have the complete memories and experiences, just an impression of the strongest or most pervasive. (OH god shades of undead sentient internet) Something about this set up seems ever so slightly dwarven.

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