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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    I am having a disagreement with a PC who has a 1st level barbarian with 30 hit points.

    I think most of the issue comes from our interpretation of "hit die" in the improved toughness feat. So, I come to the playground to set me straight.

    He has a barbarian, 12 hp at 1st level. +2 hp from his Con bonus (14). he took toughness as a feat (so +3, now 17), and improved toughness (from Libris Mortis), which he says gives him 12 hitpoints (I assume his argument is "a barbarian has a d12 hit die, so, 12 points). He then seems to tack on an additional hitpoint because improved toughness "also give 1 hitpoint per level".

    I read it that he would gain 1 hp with the feat, because he is a 1 hit die person at level 1.

    I copied his answer to my question "How does your 1st level barbarian have 30 hitpoints?"

    Answer: 12 from full hit die, 12 from improved toughness which gives a hit die equal to the level it is taken,1 for improved toughness which also gives 1 per level 3 from toughness for being a bear totem barbarian, and 2 from CON bonus.

    So... which of us is missing the boat?

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    The PC. Inform him that his hit die is 1d12, and when he reaches level 2, he'll have 2d12 HD.

    Size doesn't matter in this case, just number.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Your PC. Improved toughness gives you an amount of extra HP equal to your number of Hit dice, not the maximum of your hit Die. He should get +1, not +12.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    You gain hit points equal to your hit dice. Each time you gain a hit die, you gain a point. Lose a hit die, lose a hit point. He does not gain 12 hit points, he probably just misinterpreted the rules. But it definitely does NOT give you more than 1 point per die.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    No worries about going crazy - it's your player that's missing the boat.

    The text for Improved Toughness from Libris Mortis is exactly the same as the text from Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior.

    And since you can't take the same feat more than once... he loses 12 hit points.

    So he actually has 18 hit points at first level, not 30.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    So lets add this up a bit.

    12 from level 1 Barbarian+3 from toughness+2 from CON+1 from improved toughness per level (so 1 at level 1)=18 hp and 20 in rage
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    You're right. The feat only gives 1 HP/HD, so in this case, it's only 1. It's not the sides of the die that the feat is based on.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    One way to show that his interpretation of the feat is incorrect is to point out that the word "dice" is plural, so the sentence "You gain a number of hit points equal to your current Hit Dice" cannot be referring to the specific die he gained at the level he took the feat.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    To get at the player's interpretation directly, I believe he's not parsing the following sentence correctly:
    Each time you gain a HD (such as by gaining a level), you gain 1 additional hit point.
    The player is implicitly adding an "and" to the middle of the sentence, which creates an ambiguous ruling where each time... something happens (presumably when you gain a level) you gain an extra HD. The "and" isn't there, which means the playground's interpretation is correct.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Best HP feat otherwise. I wonder how he was planning on doing level 2, especially if he jumped class to something with say a D8.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    You want to direct your player's attention to the Glossary in the PHB.

    Hit Die/Dice (HD): In the singular form, a die rolled to generate
    hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is
    synonymous with character level
    for the sake of spells, magic items,
    and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Your player doesn't understand what Hit Dice are. This is a very deep misunderstanding that will impact every interaction he has with the game. One of the main purposes of my Monster Handbook is to introduce players to the Hit Dice system, I suggest you direct your player to read the relevant sections.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    I'd just like to throw another vote in for "read Urpriest's guide"; I DM'ed for four years and didn't completely understand the HD/class level/level adjustment/CR system until I read his guide.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    thanks guys. I thought I was thinking correct, but... it never hurts to double check before jumping into a discussion.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    And since you can't take the same feat more than once... he loses 12 hit points.
    Is this in the rules somewhere? I always thought you could take a feat as many times as you'd like, it's just generally pointless since bonusses from the same source do not stack.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    However, a human with 2 flaws can take Toughness 4 times at level 1! That is so cool.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    If you could take feats more then once, why would some feats specifically say you can take them more then once, and if their effects stack or not?

    Like Toughness:
    Toughness [General]
    Benefit: You gain +3 hit points.
    Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
    I don't think its ever actually spelled out in the rules, but all the feats that say "You can take this feat multiple times." seems to point out that normally you can only select most feat one time.
    Last edited by Jeraa; 2012-10-07 at 08:36 AM.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeraa View Post
    If you could take feats more then once, why would some feats specifically say you can take them more then once, and if their effects stack or not?

    I don't think its ever actually spelled out in the rules, but all the feats that say "You can take this feat multiple times." seems to point out that normally you can only select most feat one time.
    It's actually because of this line in the PHB (p 87): "Unlike a skill, a feat has no ranks. A character either has a feat or does not."

    So taking a feat multiple times has no effect unless there is a specific exception made to explain what happens when you take it more than once.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Toughness [General]
    Benefit

    You gain +3 hit points.
    Special

    A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    It's +3 for toughness, and +1/Hit Die for Improved Toughness. This is basically +1/Level, provided that LA isn't involved. So: 12 HP for Barbarian, +1 for Improved Toughness, +3 for Toughness, +2 for constitution, 18 total, plus 1d12+3 per level for the foreseeable future.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    My bigger question is why is he not taking Power Attack

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    However, a human with 2 flaws can take Toughness 4 times at level 1! That is so cool.
    And a human fighter can take it 5 times.

    Hmmmm... 10+5(3)+4=29 hp
    Last edited by Marthinwurer; 2012-10-07 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marthinwurer View Post
    And a human fighter can take it 5 times.

    Hmmmm... 10+5(3)+4=29 hp
    You build a first level fighter with two flaws who takes Toughness 5 times and I will build a first level fighter with or without flaws who will kick your fighter's @$$...

    5 feats for 15 hp... What a waste!
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    I'll take you up on that bet. Best two out of three, 32PB, standard starting gold, and two traits and flaws?

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    I'll laugh if his build is 4x toughness + weapon focus.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marthinwurer View Post
    And a human fighter can take it 5 times.

    Hmmmm... 10+5(3)+4=29 hp
    That... is even cooler.
    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    You build a first level fighter with two flaws who takes Toughness 5 times and I will build a first level fighter with or without flaws who will kick your fighter's @$$...

    5 feats for 15 hp... What a waste!
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  27. - Top - End - #27
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Really the way the player wants to use toughness doesn't hurt to much and makes Toughness/Imp Toughness a better feat (note: better not a good feat)... Really HP in 3.5 doesn't matter since so much stuff bypasses HP.

    Plus he is a Barbarian so throwing him a bone wouldn't be to bad...
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    You build a first level fighter with two flaws who takes Toughness 5 times and I will build a first level fighter with or without flaws who will kick your fighter's @$$...

    5 feats for 15 hp... What a waste!
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    As everyone else has said, you gain +1 HP per hit die. Also, maybe tell him to take another feat other than toughness. Maybe power attack.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    An half-orc Fighter 1 with 20 str (after racials) a greatsword deals about 14 damage per attack with an attack bonus of +6 (7 if he gets weapon focus), he can kill the toughness X 5 in about 3 rounds. In D&D the best defence is usually the best offence.
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