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  1. Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    Really HP in 3.5 doesn't matter since so much stuff bypasses HP.
    That doesn't follow. Just because a lot of stuff in the game "bypasses HP", that doesn't make hit points irrelevant. You're still out of the fight (unconscious/dead) if there's just one effect in the game which deals more damage than your current HP total, and it happens to your character. Hit points only get into the "really don't matter" category if you can guarantee that you won't ever take damage ─ and that's pretty hard to do.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    An half-orc Fighter 1 with 20 str (after racials) a greatsword deals about 14 damage per attack with an attack bonus of +6 (7 if he gets weapon focus), he can kill the toughness X 5 in about 3 rounds. In D&D the best defence is usually the best offence.
    You and I both know that, but I still love to watch one of these unfold into actual matches.
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    This is brilliant.
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    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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  3. Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Best HP feat otherwise.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    Best HP feat otherwise.
    I like an Elan PsiWarrior1 for this. Take Psionic Body, and Psionic Talentx4. You have 8+10+Con HP, and can spend 17 (assuming at least 14 Wis) PP to negate up to 34 additional points of damage.

    You can withstand up to 52+Con points of damage per day(but are more vulnerable to 1000 cuts, since Elan Resilience requires an immediate action).
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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  5. Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    An half-orc Fighter 1 with 20 str (after racials) a greatsword deals about 14 damage per attack with an attack bonus of +6 (7 if he gets weapon focus), he can kill the toughness X 5 in about 3 rounds. In D&D the best defence is usually the best offence.
    And a human Fighter 1 with 18 strength and a greatsword deals 12.5 (13 if you round up the damage of the greatsword, which you have) damage per attack with an attack bonus of +5, while having 15 more HP than the half-orc. You aren't showing that toughness is bad at first level, here, you're showing that strength is good.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    You can net an extra hit point with the slow trait. That gets you 30 hit points! However, that is on a human fighter not a barbarian.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    That doesn't follow. Just because a lot of stuff in the game "bypasses HP", that doesn't make hit points irrelevant. You're still out of the fight (unconscious/dead) if there's just one effect in the game which deals more damage than your current HP total, and it happens to your character. Hit points only get into the "really don't matter" category if you can guarantee that you won't ever take damage ─ and that's pretty hard to do.
    Well there is a thing called Will saves and Ref saves. Doesn't matter how many HP you have but getting stuck in a grease spell or a web spell... Or perhaps charmed or.. Yeah... Taking someone out of the fight is still winning.

    You don't have to kill someone to take the out of the fight. Captain Jack Harkness (spelling?) spoiler below...

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    Think of Cpt Jack Harkness (spelling?) fro Dr Who/Torchwood. He essentially has infinite hp (in the form of coming back to life) so what do they do? They put the bastard in a cell and fill it with concrete. In 3.5 HP is the last thing people should worry about being to high or broken....


    Also there is a difference between breaking being able to take damage with having a ton of HP.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    So, anyone wanna fight my 30 HP fighter?

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    honestly at level 1 toughness 5 times isnt that bad, the best fighter feats like power attack only come into their own at higher levels.

    although at this level in a duel you would probably be better off cranking ac
    for a defensive fighter.
    lets see kobold, scale mail, shield
    shape soul meld worm tail belt, shield specialization , shape soul melt dissolving spittle, midnight dodge (for the esentia)
    so we have an ac of 25 (3 nat, 3 shield, 1 size dex +4 armor 4)
    assuming our human fighter has a str of 18 he has a to hit of +5 which means hes fishing for 20s while the kobold has a touch attack with a +6 to hit it only does 2d6 dam but the kobold, will likely kill the fighter before hes hit even once

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marthinwurer View Post
    So, anyone wanna fight my 30 HP fighter?
    I will.

    Human fighter 1. Two flaws. Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Jotunbrud. I have a +8 to trip over you, assuming equal strength. Every round, you come at me, provoke an AoO, have to my best guess a 90% chance of getting tripped, and then if you do get tripped I get a free attack, and then on my turn I take my standard attack and take a five-foot step backwards. Rinse, repeat. If you use a bow, you end up at least as bad off.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Hmmm... How will a prone fighter work against you? As in, I stay prone after you trip me. Would you be able to out damage me while I was prone? Or I could just 5ft step in?
    Last edited by Marthinwurer; 2012-10-07 at 08:49 PM.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Guys, that Fighter is totally unoptimized. A Human Bear Totem Barbarian takes it five times, but also has a d12 Hit Dice and Rage (select the Rage of your choosing).

    Assuming default Rage and 18 CON, 12 + 3(5) + 4 + 2 (Rage) = 33, but also an extra +2 to hit.

    I'll totally take on your Fighter with my flat-out better beefcake.

    Or with something else. I remember a Color Spray Wizard build that does well at this level.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    I will.

    Human fighter 1. Two flaws. Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Jotunbrud. I have a +8 to trip over you, assuming equal strength. Every round, you come at me, provoke an AoO, have to my best guess a 90% chance of getting tripped, and then if you do get tripped I get a free attack, and then on my turn I take my standard attack and take a five-foot step backwards. Rinse, repeat. If you use a bow, you end up at least as bad off.
    How are they provoking an AoO?

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    I remember a Color Spray Wizard build that does well at this level.
    He was totally unoptimized. I mean, he didn't even have a familiar.

    @Jade Dragon: There is no reason to take Combat Reflexes unless you are going to be making more than one AoO per round. The 5' step hurts you (he wont provoke for standing), and does nothing bad to him (he can just 5' step toward you after standing) and then it is a slugfest.

    Edit: So lets do this.
    Last edited by dextercorvia; 2012-10-07 at 09:15 PM.
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    This is brilliant.
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    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Origomar View Post
    How are they provoking an AoO?
    I have a reach weapon. He's stepping from ten feet away to five feet away.

    Of course, if he goes for the reach weapon + spikes combo, then I don't get an AoO. I can still go for
    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    @Jade Dragon: There is no reason to take Combat Reflexes unless you are going to be making more than one AoO per round. The 5' step hurts you (he wont provoke for standing), and does nothing bad to him (he can just 5' step toward you after standing) and then it is a slugfest.
    If he wins initiative, I'm flat-footed. Therefore, I need Combat Reflexes.

    And just so we're clear:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Prone
    The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

    Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
    So if he does decide to remain prone, he takes -4/-4, and if he stands up, he provokes an AoO (although I can't trip him since I think he still counts as prone, but that would mean he takes -4 to AC against the AoO).

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol View Post
    Or with something else. I remember a Color Spray Wizard build that does well at this level.
    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    He was totally unoptimized. I mean, he didn't even have a familiar.
    Oh you!

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    All the stuff about fighters with toughness
    Toughness is not a valid choice as a fighter bonus feat...


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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    A level 1 Wizard is probably cheating, but its still a crap shoot.
    Does the Wizard win initiative, and if so does the barbarian fail his will save ?

    A level 1 Monk, built around Improved Grapple should also beat him.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    1st lv evoker with fell drain, metamagic school focus, improved initative, Humming bird familliar, and knows the spells neverskitter and sonic snap...

    +13 to initative vs an equal dex fighter, casts fell drain-sonic snap on the fighter for a no save 1 damage + 1 negative level fighter instantly dies

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    30 Hp is possible with a barbarian but not as he says it.

    Human Bear Totem Barbarian (2 flaws)
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    12+4+1+2+15=34 HP while raging. Not as tough as the Elan but can take the damage from multiple sources in a turn (an elan can only do it's damage reductor trick once per turn).
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    1st lv evoker with fell drain, metamagic school focus, improved initative, Humming bird familliar, and knows the spells neverskitter and sonic snap...

    +13 to initative vs an equal dex fighter, casts fell drain-sonic snap on the fighter for a no save 1 damage + 1 negative level fighter instantly dies
    Uhh... it might just be Raise Dead, but if you're only level one, don't you take two con damage instead?

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Uhh... it might just be Raise Dead, but if you're only level one, don't you take two con damage instead?
    Two con damage instead of the negative level? No that isn't how it works.
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    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Uhh... it might just be Raise Dead, but if you're only level one, don't you take two con damage instead?
    Nope. Negative levels are incredibly lethal to low-level/low-HD creatures.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    Really HP in 3.5 doesn't matter since so much stuff bypasses HP.
    I'm curious... if HP doesn't matter, than why do people always talk about how Con is always one of the most important stats?

    Hit points ABSOLUTELY matter. In fact, I'd argue that they matter more than AC. There are a ton of ways to automatically deal damage to you, and a ton of no-save effects that are based off of total hit points (such as the Power Word spells and the death domain power).

    Sure, there are instances where it doesn't matter. Facing off against an ubercharger is pretty much a binary outcome - either it hits you and you die, or it doesn't hit you and you live. And yeah, BFC generally doesn't care how many hit points you have. But in general, having a decent pile of hit points is going to be a pretty big boon for you. Just don't go so crazy that you spend ALL your resources toward maintaining that pile...
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marthinwurer View Post
    So, anyone wanna fight my 30 HP fighter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marthinwurer View Post
    So, anyone wanna fight my 30 HP fighter?
    All books allowed? Let's try and do it with an archer. How about Dragon Magazine? Lvl. 1 Targeteer. Arctic Lesser Chaond. Str 8, Dex 22, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 4

    I'll use a greatbow, I suppose.

    Traits: Quick, Slippery

    Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative

    Two attacks at +5 (+6,) total average damage of 22 (24.)

    AC: (Padded Armor) 17. HP: 14

    Initiative: +10

    I go first, I am pretty sure. How far away are we? I could always outrun you and wait until I am at a safe distance to plink you off. But without ever doing a full run? I shoot you twice at first, I will probably go first. I'll have +5 on both attacks with an average of 11.5 damage each. You charge in, but probably not close enough to get a charge attack. I back away free five, you may or may not hit me, but I'll use my buckler here so you will have to hit 17 AC. Even if you hit me, you will have to hit me good to kill me. I still have +6 on another two attacks, each doing an average of 12.5 damage. I don't kill you and you have to hit me again at 17.

    Two hits on me and I am probably dead, but I could kill you in two hits if I roll well and almost for sure could do it in three. I think I'd kill you a little more than half the time. You will have, what, 14 AC? 15? If it is any higher I amy change my strategy a bit, but your to-hit can't be better than 5 with around 12 average damage.

    It is usually easier to pump out more and more damage. Huge HP numbers at low levels is fun, though, I will give you that. And I am sure you could make it useful for the first few levels. And the archetypical hero who shrugs off all wounds can be fun, I'm sure.
    Last edited by SowZ; 2012-10-08 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    I believe that my AC would be at the very least 20. To hit, on the other hand, would be a low 2 or three at most.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Hey, it's not explicitly hit points, but Shape Soulmeld (Rageclaws) is not a bad choice. It's sort of like getting 9 or 10 extra hit points.

    If he goes with Azurin Barbarian, he could invest his 1 essentia into the rageclaws so that he can drop as far as -12 hit points before he dies (at -13), still being unaffected by his condition.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Also I just realized...

    Arctic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Bear Totem Barbarian, 2 flaws, Slow trait. 18 base Con, 26 after modifiers.

    12 base + 3*4 Toughness (level 1, flaw, flaw, Bear Totem), +1 (Slow) + 8 (Con) = 33 hp, 35 while raging.

    (thanks gooddragon1)
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Also I just realized...

    Arctic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Bear Totem Barbarian, 2 flaws, Slow trait. 18 base Con, 26 after modifiers.

    12 base + 3*4 Toughness (level 1, flaw, flaw, Bear Totem), +1 (Slow) + 8 (Con) = 33 hp, 35 while raging.

    (thanks gooddragon1)
    It may be better to replace the fancy race/template combo with Human. Loses 8 Con (and therefore 4 hp), but gains a bonus feat, which can be used to take Dauntless from PGtF. 34 hp, 36 while raging.

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    Default Re: 1st level barbarian, 30 hp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    It may be better to replace the fancy race/template combo with Human. Loses 8 Con (and therefore 4 hp), but gains a bonus feat, which can be used to take Dauntless from PGtF. 34 hp, 36 while raging.
    Hmm, I'd never heard of Dauntless.

    However, you'd get +1 hp by going the fancy race/template combo and dropping a Toughness.

    EDIT: So Arctic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Bear Totem Barbarian, 2 flaws, Slow trait. 18 base Con, 26 after modifiers.

    12 base + 3*3 Toughness (level 1, flaw, Bear Totem) + 5 Dauntless (flaw) +1 (Slow) + 8 (Con) = 35 hp, 36 while raging.

    (thanks gooddragon1 and Zdrak)
    Last edited by danzibr; 2012-10-16 at 09:12 PM.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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