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Thread: On Doctor Who ...
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2013-03-10, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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On Doctor Who ...
I really like the concept of The Doctor, and the Tardis. The regeneration thing is cool, and kind of fascinating. The sentient timeship is cool, and also kind of fascinating. The character of The Doctor, especially when portrayed by David Tennant, Tom Baker, and William Hartnell, is great.
... But I'm not sure I actually enjoy watching the show all that much. The science fiction aesthetic annoys me, the sense of humor annoys me, and the overall tone usually annoys me.
The idea has such great potential as a serious drama, focusing on The Doctor's psyche, and the way his influence profoundly screws people up in a way that is gradually dawning on him.
Instead, it becomes a lighthearted adventure jokefest with occasional drama. I have nothing against the inclusion of humor but I feel it would work much better as a dark drama with occasional humor.
I also don't see why the show has to be science fiction. Why not urban fantasy? Why isn't the doctor a fae creature? It certainly fits the character. Why does there need to be spaceships? Wouldn't a more Neverwhere-like aesthetic fit better? Its not like the writers try to scientifically justify anything.
I guess the show is pretty okay on its own, but I feel it could have been much better.
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2013-03-10, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-03-10, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
It's science fiction probably because it was first intended as a show to teach children about history and science. I'm not educated on the popularity of different genres through history, but I'm sure Sci-Fi was a rising genre in the 60s and they thought it would attract children.
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2013-03-10, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Oh Dr Who you Mary Sue. I am in the same boat with the Dr. It has qualities I Like but....He is such a mary sue. And For someone who won't use a gun he is a bit captain collateral damage for my tastes.
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2013-03-10, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Newest Doctor toned down the anti-gun moralizing a great deal (to its benefit in my opinion).
Anyway, as to the OP. Ehh, seems you're just interested in another show. Personally, I don't see anything inherently superior in a dark drama as opposed to a light comedy. The Doctor is about adventure, and how much fun it would be to go out and explore. And yes, there are some points of drama but that very much is not the focus, and making it the focus would completely alter the tone.
This change could be good, could be bad, depending on the writers, actors and so on.
If you want to make a serious, fantasy epic about a time traveling elf and his human companions that revolve around his need for companionship but the realization that he screws up everyone who gets near him. Well, cool. But at that point, you've lost a lot of the things that people like about the Doctor and not necessarily for the better. It's just one of those different taste sort of things.
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2013-03-10, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
I disagree. The last thing, the very last thing, we need these days is more "dark drama" in media - there's enough of that as it is... Doctor Who can be quite dark enough for purpose as it is, without making it worse.
(I am so frag-damn tired of all the melodrama and dark drama and "gritty" and "realistic" nonsense that pervades media today; everything has to be "darker and edgier" which inevitably means it ends up been dull, flat and frequently quite pathetic and/or mean spirited (Marvel and DC comics, looking at you in particular for that last one.))
It's nice to have at least one show that is a) sci-fi, when all proper sci-fi has more or less disappeared and replaced by crime dramas or supernatural dramas (or supernatural crime dramas...) and b) light-hearted for the most part (while maintaining the ability to get serious at the appropriate point).
(There is a reason why 90% of the shows I watch these days are cartoons or children's programs; I think the tighter restrictions on what they can do actually mean the good ones (like say, Young Justice) are much better written than a lot of live-action dramas, because they can't get too distracted with the drama at the expense of the story.)
Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit
Exactly.
Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit
The BBC are highly unlikely to attempt to make such a change, because the license-paying public would play merry hell with them (Doctor Who has always been family-orientated viewing - and prime-time Saturday BBC One viewing at that), and unlike the big US networks which are private companies, the BBC is basically a public service we literally pay taxes for, so it is a bit more culpable.
The BBC did kind of try doing something not a million miles from the direction you suggest, with the spin-off Torchwood (perhaps worth a look for you, it never appealed to me at all), which was more serious and was mostly Earth-based, closer to your "urban fantasy." Wasn't overly popular, though, enough that it only made three seasons and was regulated to subsidary channels. (I think Sarah Jane Adventures nearly lasted longer, and they only stopped making that when Elizabeth Sladen sadly suddenly died.)
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2013-03-10, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Hasn't Doctor Who gotten a lot darker already? The last few seasons were like a steady downward spiral of his psyche.
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2013-03-10, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
There's two things on TV that are missing for my tastes. Proper Science Fiction and light-hearted adventure.
Doctor Who rarely ever does even a bit of the first, if they ever do, and it seems they are losing the second more and more lately.
Can't we at least keep a bit of it?
Not to say that your show idea couldn't be amazing if done right. But not if it costs me one of the few remaining genuinely fun shows out there.
It's bloody time travel to magical technicolor dream wonderland. If you can't enjoy that, what can you enjoy?Resident Vancian Apologist
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2013-03-10, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-03-11, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
As Aotrs Commander said, definitely look into Torchwood. Same universe, far more serious take on it.
The entire third season is about how Earth handles an alien contact scenario without the aid of the omnipotent Doctor to help them (it doesn't go well).
There's 4 seasons of it and things definitely pick up in the second and third seasons. I haven't seen the 4th season though.
Fixed that for you.Last edited by Brother Oni; 2013-03-11 at 07:17 AM.
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2013-03-11, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Sorry for the cut and paste jobs...
Sanctuary ended with the fourth season just as they were about to deal with humanity having to confront the missing links of evolution (forgotten what they're called!) don't know about Warehouse 13 but it had crossover episodes with A Town Called Eureka so thats worth mentioning especially as it had an arc dealing with time travel including a trip back during the second world war but I haven't been keeping tabs on most of those!
I think it's doing a stellar job, and aside from getting rid of the Ponds as a very low point, I think Moffat's run of Doctor Who is the best it's ever been.
The BBC are highly unlikely to attempt to make such a change, because the license-paying public would play merry hell with them (Doctor Who has always been family-orientated viewing - and prime-time Saturday BBC One viewing at that), and unlike the big US networks which are private companies, the BBC is basically a public service we literally pay taxes for, so it is a bit more culpable.
The BBC did kind of try doing something not a million miles from the direction you suggest, with the spin-off Torchwood (perhaps worth a look for you, it never appealed to me at all), which was more serious and was mostly Earth-based, closer to your "urban fantasy." Wasn't overly popular, though, enough that it only made three seasons and was regulated to subsidary channels. (I think Sarah Jane Adventures nearly lasted longer, and they only stopped making that when Elizabeth Sladen sadly suddenly died.)
So have you sampled episodes from the other Doctors'?Last edited by Hopeless; 2013-03-11 at 07:48 AM.
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2013-03-11, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
The tone of new Doctor Who is definitely different than classic Doctor Who. Budget I think is a factor. Doctor Who is infamous with its cheesy special effects and new Doctor Who is no exception, it's now iconic, but the ability to hire lots of extras and go on locations instead of always being in a studio provides an atmosphere you didn't have often in classic. Also, what can get by the censors has changed. You can now be more 'in your face', and that can get tiresome.
The gayness is being overdone. John Barrowman as Jack Harness was terrific. Cool character, fine actor, enjoyed Torchwood, but it's like almost every episode now has innuendo if not outright overtness. It's gratuitous, not pertinent to the story as with Jack. It wants to attract the spotlight which detracts from the overall story.
Obligatory: No, this is not the same thing as saying it should never be there nor never should have.Last edited by navar100; 2013-03-11 at 11:47 AM.
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2013-03-11, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
I think that Doctor Who is a perfect example of how you can have a meangingful and deep show without resorting to being "gritty", "dark" and "dramatic". It's so much more than people going on silly adventures, it is filled with moral lessons, some more hamfisted than others (I'm talking to you "Planet of the Ood" with your totally not colonialism message), and has an overarching theme that I don't think is said enough in modern media. The show is, more than anything else and to paraphrase Craig Ferguson, about the conflict between intellect and romance against brute force and cynicism, with the former usually triumphing. That is an important message, one you're missing if you think it's all about fun jaunts and one that deserves the kind of deep and varied exploration that DW is giving it. The show is far from perfect, but it's unique and special, and your suggested changes would eliminate that and turn it into your bog standard supernatural drama. We have enough of those.
@navar100
I really don't think it's too much. It never goes beyond an indication that this person isn't straight, or these two are a couple. At the most its a bit of flirting. Would you be saying the same thing if it were the same stuff but heterosexual? I think not.Last edited by Weezer; 2013-03-11 at 08:34 AM.
At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
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2013-03-11, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
I can't speak for navar, but I very often find overt flirting, be it heterosexual or homosexual rather annoying. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship being a prime example.
But then, I never really liked Harkness that much either, no matter who he happened to be trying to chat up at the time. So I am very much not one of the normal viewers.
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2013-03-11, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
In Doctor Who, the most explicit it gets is a single kiss or some flirting (Amy's attempt to get Eleven in bed is probably the raunchiest it got).
Torchwood... not so much.
That said, Season 3 didn't have any relationship stuff with Jack, except tragically involving his daughter and grandson.
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2013-03-11, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
I don't mind too much, unless its with the Doctor and goes on for too long. Leave the alien alone, you xenophiles.
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2013-03-11, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Jack Harkness is a terrible character in my eyes because he started as Han Solo and then suddenly turned into Jesus. Mainly because for some reason RT Davis thinks everyone needs to be Jesus or if not Jesus at least Kal El or Tinkerbell.
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2013-03-11, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
The "gayness" isn't being overdone, it's being done badly.
Moffat typically uses homosexuality/bisexuality as a punchline, a cheap way to get a laugh at the expense of a character by ramping up the innuendo, whereas Davies had characters who just sometimes turned out to be not straight.
For example, I agree that Captain Jack's a cool character, but that's not because he's omnisexual, it's just because he's a cool character, and that happens to be one aspect of him.
Oh, and in response to the OP - I personally like the soft, indistinguishable-from-magic sci-fi of Doctor Who as it is, but what you suggest sounds cool, and if you developed the idea into your own setting and stories, I'd certainly be interested in reading it.I have a cookie now! (::) I've licked it, so no backsies.
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2013-03-11, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Last edited by Hopeless; 2013-03-11 at 11:07 AM.
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2013-03-11, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
The Doctor can be a Mary Sue at times, but mostly that was the Tenth Doctor.
And not all Doctors are equally gun-adverse (and some that were, it was more "Why bother with a gun? Most of my enemies are immune to bullets" than "Guns are bad"). It does get a bit off, though, when the Doctor won't shoot someone who, frankly, needs to be shot, but is OK with his companions blowing them up, stabbing them, throwing them off a tall building, etc.
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2013-03-11, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
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2013-03-11, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Spoiler warning for "Narnia-like" Christmas Special
What stood out about that Christmas special is the Doctor did not go on a moral outrage rant of humans purposely using acid rain on the planet to clear it out. He helped the plant natives escape. That's good. It's what he does. However, I was expecting an admonishment but it never happened. I was pleasantly surprised.
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2013-03-11, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Unfortunately it was also not as good, and suffered a bit too much (in my opinion) from trying too hard to be dark and also a little from sometimes trying too much to imitate its parent show. Oh, and as others have brought up, there did seem at times to be too much "Everyone is queer and they all want each other."
Did have some good bits in there, though. Actually, I might rewatch series 2 at some point..."'But there's still such a lot to be done...'
YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."
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2013-03-11, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-03-11, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-03-11, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
-Camus, An Absurd Reasoning
Fourth Doctor avatar courtesy of Szilard
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2013-03-11, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
They were at their best when they had some interesting concept and expanded upon it logically to explore its consequences in the real world.
SpoilerThe Children of Earth has a brilliant scene where they discuss, in simple pragmatic terms, how to go about sacrificing 10% of the world`s children to alien invaders It was reminiscent of the movie Conspiracy about the holocaust planning. The idea of, what if someone is not there to conveniently save us from the evil invaders was thoroughly considered
Similarly, Miracle Day was Death Takes a Holiday without a specific moral message, rather the impracticality of eternal life without invulernability. The concept was horrific in its inevitable implications.
This is what should have made it dark, taking the absurd situations of a Doctor Who and treating it as if it could actually happen. The sexual situations and melodrama made it seem... smaller, like it did not feel confident enough in moving you or making you think with innovative narratives, it has to arouse you and have people shouting each other all the bloody time too.
As to Doctor Who, I would follow Steven Moffat to hell and back at this point - so long as the show remains in or around his writing talents I do not care which direction it takes.
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2013-03-12, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
The Doctor has always walked the line. Some times he is dark, some times he is light, some times he is neither and some times even he does not know what he is.
Even in the best possible light, the Doctor is a mass murderer with millions of kills. The Doctor has destroyed entire planets!
Then you have the whole accomplice thing. The Doctor generally figures out something bad is going down before most people, yet he will just bungle around and let dozes of other people get killed.
So the Dark Doctor is already here.
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2013-03-12, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-03-12, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: On Doctor Who ...
Thanks for the torchwood suggestions. I am not, however, looking for a darker take on the universe. I could take or leave the universe. What I want is a darker take on The Doctor.
Are there any novels or comics that do something like that?