The Manga Thread

[Yora]

Strange that there isn't one yet.

I read Axis Power Hetalia today.
I am somewhat underwhelmed. Sure, it's a funny idea, but how did it get to be so insanely popular? Italia looks funny, but otherwise the style isn't amazing, and neither are the jokes, and there isn't any plot.
There's nothing wrong with beeing manga doodles on the web and it's not dumb or bad. But without the hype, I probably wouldn't have given it a second glance if I had just stubled upon it.

[Benson]

Strange that there isn't one yet.

I read Axis Power Hetalia today.
I am somewhat underwhelmed. Sure, it's a funny idea, but how did it get to be so insanely popular? Italia looks funny, but otherwise the style isn't amazing, and neither are the jokes, and there isn't any plot.
There's nothing wrong with beeing manga doodles on the web and it's not dumb or bad. But without the hype, I probably wouldn't have given it a second glance if I had just stubled upon it.

Bishounens and yaoi fangirls, that is all.

[Yora]

Well, Pokemon and Dragon Ball is popular, so it's not as if I need to see a reason in it for something to become a big hit.

[tensai_oni]

Manga is usually discussed in the anime thread, that's why.

[Eldan]

Yes, but the Anime thread is a scary place, full of people discussing stuff I've never heard about, and will likely never see, using terminology that is entrely alien to me!

I'm reading the Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind Manga, since I accidentally found it in a shop (that seems to be the only way to get any manga here, unless you want to read Naruto or order something online). Haven't got far, but it's already departing quite a bit from the movie, and seems to go on after the movie ended, if length is any indication. I quite like it.

[Yora]

When the movie was made, the manga had only two years of it's 12 year run. There's a lot more.

Though I wonder why the title has such a weird transcription. The original is a very simple Naushika. That ä doesn't represent any sound!
That's what you get when you transcribe Ancient Greek to Katakana, to Latin script and only actually speak one of those languages.

[Eldan]

I noticed when I watched the movie and wondered about the subtitles, yes. I'm aware of the Greek origin of the name, but still.

Is there in fact any connection between the Greek mythological figure and the one in the movies/mangas? Other than that they are both princesses?

[Yora]

No clue, read the wikipedia pages yourself. I just went straight for the Japanese spelling.

[Terraoblivion]

I'd say that it is probably because starting a new thread about a broad topic is hard and tends to fizzle. The anime thread wasn't started as the anime thread, it was the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya thread that got turned into the anime thread because people couldn't stay on topic. It was kind of an isolated, cliquish place for a long while too.

Speaking of actual mangas, I'm really excited that Seven Seas seems to have committed themselves to translating Morinaga Milk's stuff. She's pretty much the queen of yuri, with Girl Friends standing as one of the best romance mangas out there, whether gay or straight. I also hope that if it and Kisses, Sighs and Cherryblossom Pink become successful they might try picking up some of the other major works in the genre like Sasameki Koto or Octave, maybe even Chatting at the Amber Teahouse.

[Yora]

Oh no, my one guilty pleasure. I still can't explain why I read such a long sappy romance manga for women until the end. But Girlfriends was probably the only book or comic that ever had me yell at the character "Damn it! How stupid are you! Just say one word and this whole crisis will solve itself!"

[Terraoblivion]

Actually, Comics High is a seinen magazine, so it was technically written for men. Yuri tends to break out of the demographic straight jacket of the manga industry, though. The main magazine in publishing the genre, Yuri Hime, has no clear demographic in the customer base, nor is it clearly marketed to any specific demographic.

In any, case a lot of the drama in Girl Friends does come from Mari having internalized homophobia and doing stupid things due to that. Especially the invisibility of gay people hits her hard. It is very well done, though, and I can certainly empathise with her, having gone through much the same myself. It might be stupid of her, but it's a realistic kind of stupid.

[Yora]

The one page that made me scream was the almost touching the hand on the train home while watching the sunset outside.
"Yes, yes, yes... NOOOO!!!!""

But yeah, it works because it's all very beliveable. Not any dumber that things most of us have done ourselves.

[tensai_oni]

Since this exists, let's talk my favorite manga - the Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer.

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The plot synopsis: Yuuhi, a disattached and misanthropic college student, wakes up one day to be greeted by a talking lizard. The lizard informs him that a mage wants to destroy the world, and he is one of the Knights chosen to protect the princess (actually Yuuhi's neighbour, Sami) who is the only person that stands between the mage and the world's destruction.
And yet, Yuuhi agrees to join this mission only after he discovers Sami wants to save the world only so she can destroy it herself.

This synopsis by itself does not do the series justice. At all.

You could call this a fighting manga. But once again, this wouldn't do the series justice. There is a switch in the manga's tone around 20% into the series. Before that, it's similar to a character study - showing what made Yuuhi a strange person that he is, how he interacts with his surroundings and other people, and how this unathletic nerd is able to survive confrontations with ridiculously strong and durable golems, the mage's minions. But when other Knights appear, the focus shifts - now it's more like Persona 3 or 4, in terms of how it feels rather than general plot. Persona 3 or 4 with (mostly) adult characters that is, as opposed to high schoolers. It's not better or worse but it definitely feels very different.

The characters are great. The main cast is pretty damn large (the princess, ~8 knights, and their animal companions kinda count too), and yet all of them get a lot of characterisation and are deep and sympathetic characters. Even side characters are intriguing and interesting, even if their appearances are limited and some are phased out as the series continue. Hisame, Sami's older sister, may be the biggest loss here.

For a fightan series, this has surprisingly few fights. Especially after the first chapters, you could say that each golem is a "boss fight" of sorts. And Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer is definitely NOT a manga where just spamming your strongest super-powerful technique will win the day. The characters must fight smart, things get serious and deadly, and people die.

And yet despite that, the manga is pretty light in tone. There's a lot of jokes and when there's no immediate danger, it can get almost slice of life-like. The cast tends to discuss philosophy and their plans for the future or how they see the world, or even just do ordinary things. It's really endearing.

Also, secret cosplay.
Also, Magical Mari.
Also, once this is over we'll all go. Together.
Also, you owe me 5000 yen.

Did I mention it's less than 70 chapters total?

[Terraoblivion]

Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer is indeed a nice one, even if the oni has a point in some characters getting cut despite cool and entertaining. Despite how little she's around after chapter...20'ish, Sami's sister is still my favorite character. Or at least she was when I read the manga three years ago, my taste might have changed since then.

The other long-running manga by the same guy, Sengoku Youki, is also quite good. Set in Sengoku times, it focuses on a young fox demon, who looks a lot like Sami from Luciver and the Biscuit Hammer, who loves humans and wants to protect them and her human adopted brother who hates humans and wants to be a demon, but helps her protect humans anyway because he loves her. They're naturally joined by a bunch of other characters, with highlights including a bat**** insane mountain goddess and a peasant girl who was an experimental victim of a mad scientist. Also, the manga has an epic battle between a mountain and a castle, how can you not love a battle between a mountain and a castle?

[Claudius Maximus]

I read Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer and liked it way more than I expected to. I'll third its recommendation.

[TechnOkami]

Ooh, Mangas... let's see, what do I read...

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-Spice and Wolf
-Girls of the Wild
-Berserk
-Soul Eater
-Dorohedoro
-Bleach (begrudgingly)
-Mushishi
-The Breaker
-Zetman
-Vagabond
-FMA
-Hellsing (and its offshoots)
-Homunculus
-Skyhigh & Skyhigh Karma
-Planetes
-Kiss Wood
-Noblesse
-Frankenstein (the original in manga style)
-Historie
-Team Medical Dragon

I've read and read a lot. ^^"

[The Second]

I won't bore you with my reading list. Let me just express that I've been reading manga since the release of Battle Angle Alita and leave it at that.

Anywho, has anyone got any news about the new copyright law that's being backed by the big name publishers? From what rumors I've heard it's been the death of a lot of popular series as creators pull their work before the law (possibly) goes into effect.

[Terraoblivion]

I'd say that we should wait and see before declaring it the end of everything. There's both the chance that it'll fail and, of course, one that they'll decide they like having a steady income and not pull the series after all.

[The Second]

I have a feeling it's more about ownership of rights than anything. Even Mr. Burlew allows no one to have rights to his material except himself. If the new copyright law goes through, everyone from the assistant who draws the backgrounds to the publisher who proofs the final sheets will have equal copyright of the entire work.

In theory this sounds great, all of those little guys who have done all of the menial tasks finally get some credit for their labors, but-- The publisher also has copyright-- which means if they decide to, say hire a new creator to create a spinoff series, the original creator of the work has no say in the matter.

Then there's the dojin scene. If the publisher decides that they don't want a circle to produce a dojin, under the new law they will have the power to stop them, even if the circle has the permission of the original creator. And the dojin scene is a very big thing in japan... it's where most creators earn their stripes, and is a decent source of creative freedom for established artists as well.

"But circles should be ignored like any other creator of fan fiction, right?"

No, not when the circle is planning to profit from the work he or she creates, which is the situation right now.

"But wait, wouldn't there be some sort of backlash if they started picking on the circles?"

Sure. Some of that is what we're seeing now, with creators pulling their works from publication. If their work is in their hands and their hands alone, it's up to them what happens to the work. If they decide to allow a circle to create something based on their work, no one else can say otherwise. If someone wants to create an anime based on their work, they can say no.

"But if creators pull their works out of publication, how do they plan to make money? Won't they be forced to work with the publishers anyway to get their works to their audience?"

Creator Ken Akamatsu, in an effort to curb the uplaoding of his manga illegally, created the website J-Comi to display his out of print manga. The site is add supported and the manga are distributed DRM free. Since the creation of the site, other creators have joined the site.

There is nothing stopping creators from digitally publishing their works. But is it an ideal solution? Maybe, maybe not. Add based revenue is a risky business. A better alternative might be a paid membership program, but then you still have the problem of people wanting hard copies of their favorite manga.

So web publishing is an imperfect solution. Self publishing? An expensive, and risky, endeavor.

"But why is creative control that big of a deal?"

I'll take an example from the US. Writer Neil Gaiman published the Sandman series of graphic novels through DC comics. DC retains rights to the any content that they release. Because of this, if a writer for DC decides that he wants to use a character from the Sandman series in his own work, he is free to do so and there is little to nothing Mr. Gaiman can do to stop it.

Such is the case with the character Death, a character Mr. Gaiman created specifically for the Sandman series. So far, Death has been used in other writers works, only a few of which were actually approved by Mr. Gaiman.

I should note that Vertigo (the label under which The Sandman was published) has since become a creator owned imprint.

So, it's not so much about steady paychecks. It's more about the right to control what they have created. I for one do not blame the creators whop have pulled their content, if it came right down to it, I would do the same.

TL/DR: (Shame on you)

It ain't 'bout the money, it's about freedom of choice and the right to control the destiny of the content they create.

[Yora]

The only good way to produce art is for fun and not for profit. Once you get publishing companies involved, you screwed yourself unless you get a really good contract that allows you to get back all rights when the partnership is terminated. Which is probably almost impossible to get, because there's no reason for any publisher to agree to something like that, unless your product is already huge and will flood them with money from day one.

From what I understand, the issue with OotS is that if he says once "sure, you may use this image" without a specfic contract agreeement, he gives a carte blanche to everyone to use any image he produced in regard to the comic. There probably are still ways to prevent other people to take the comics from the website and print them as books, but that's a legal process that consumes as lot of time and nerves and potentially money, and just saying a general No to everything, you're on the safe side and don't have to worry about that.

Now I havn't actually released anything of any relevance yet, but every time I am trying out something with the possibility of sharing it with a public audience, I do so right from the start with the intention of not making any money of it or legally challenging anyone who copies it. Money is just toxic for art and now that we no longer need a big company to pay for printing and getting the products to the shops, I don't see any reason to do so. I can get my work to the audience at almost no cost.
If people are willing to donate money to artists because they like to make it easier for them to get better equipment, or even to have more time to work on it because they can work less on their day job, that's fine. But art for profit is generally a bad thing as I see it. That's not art, that's manufacturing.

[The Second]

Well, just finished Alien Nine... Finally! I had been searching for it for years without knowing the title so...

Anyway, I enjoyed the story, except for one thing. The end.

I would have been OK with the series ending at volume 3, kind of open ended. But as it is, I have no idea what to make of the ending...

Would anyone have any deeper insight into it?

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, Pokemon and Dragon Ball is popular, so it's not as if I need to see a reason in it for something to become a big hit.

Dragon Ball is a seminal work, that's why it's popular. You're probably suffering from Seinfeld is Unfunny. Or you just don't like the genre...
Anyway, don't think it's a good idea to trash talk DB without even backing your argument, people could get pissed.
Also, have you ever read Pokemon Special? It's not what you would expect from a Pokemon manga. Gorgeous art and the plot actually makes sense. I should finish reading it one of these days... It was canceled here in Brazil, since kids don't like it.

I read Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer and liked it way more than I expected to. I'll third its recommendation.

I started reading it. I quite like it, but it takes a while to build momentum. The art could be better, as well.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Also, have you ever read Pokemon Special? It's not what you would expect from a Pokemon manga. Gorgeous art and the plot actually makes sense. I should finish reading it one of these days... It was canceled here in Brazil, since kids don't like it.

This. This so hard. Pokemon Special/Adventure is a beautiful, beautiful comics. Also, I should pick up this Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer thing.

[Yora]

Or you just don't like the genre...

I really don't like the genre.

I certainly won't read a manga I have not the slightest of interest in to be able to talk about it.

[ThiagoMartell]

I really don't like the genre.

Then I think it's fair to say you shouldn't complain about other people liking it, don't you agree?

[Yora]

Which I didn't...


A question I was going to take to the Arts and Crafts corner, but might actually be much better asked here: I taken up practicing my drawing again and was a bit suprised how decent it looks without any reference or even actual plan for what I was going to draw. But I am really not a patient person and I really want to take again the shortcut of imitating drawings of people who are already as good as I want to become, that really works amazingly well.
I always prefer lineart and hate to draw faces that make a perfectly good drawing into a horrible mess, so manga are great references to get somewhat decent faces with few chances to screw it up. But most are too stylized for what I would prefer, so I am wondering if anyone can point me to some manga with slightly more naturalistic styles for faces. Stuff I can experiment with to figure out something that works for me.
I think Vinland Saga is already a bit too naturalistic for me. Some character designs in the middle of Bleach look like they have a degree of detail that would suit me. That just for reference what I have in mind. Here's a bunch of drawing I've already gathered that I like to play with: http://yora23.deviantart.com/favouri...93706?offset=0

Any pointers what artists or specific mangas to look up?

[AtlanteanTroll]

I'd go to Art and Crafts if I were you.

So who else here reads Blue Exorcist?

[Eldan]

So, since everyone was talking about it, with Halloween coming up and everything, I read Uzumaki yesterday. It started out weird, but sort-of interesting, then descended into absolute utter hilariousness. A few times, I couldn't stop laughing at some of the art or the plot. So, I guess that's a good thing.

[Fri]

That's just the expected reaction. Next, read Gyo.

[Eldan]

Ah, good. I was confused, since everyone told me it would be horrific.