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Thread: G&G: Conditions

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    Default G&G: Conditions

    One of the biggest balance difficulties in D&D is gradual verses binary defenses. Mundane attackers and damage-dealing spells affect hit points: a gradual defense. They get worn down, but the character continues to fight at full capacity. Meanwhile, magic tends to operate on a binary system: you either make your save, or you fail it. You're either unaffected, or crippled by blindness, mind control, or worse.

    Borrowing heavily from Mutants and Masterminds' Affliction power, we propose a "Condition Track" mechanic, where spells and abilities cannot inflict truly dire conditions without repeated castings and/or very poor rolls on saving throws.


    Condition Tracks: Whenever a creature is affected by a spell or ability that inflicts a condition, he rolls a saving throw, as normal. If he makes the save, he is unaffected. If he fails, however, he is affected by the appropriate first degree condition. If he fails the save by 5 or more, he is instead affected by a second degree condition, and if he fails by 10 or more, he is affected by a third degree condition.

    If a creature is already affected by a condition, and is affected by another ability inflicting the same condition, it takes a penalty to the saving throw: -2 if suffering from a first degree condition, and -5 if suffering from a second degree condition.

    Spells and abilities are limited in how many degrees of conditions they may inflict. A 1st or 2nd level spell may only inflict first degree conditions, no matter how much the . A 3rd of 4th level spell may only inflict first or second degree conditions, and only a 5th or higher level spell may inflict a third degree condition. These guidelines hold true even when stacking conditions-- if a creature is already Shaken, it does not become Frightened if it fails a save against a scare spell (2nd level), no matter how badly it fails it saving throw.


    {table=head]|First Degree|Second Degree|Third Degree
    |Save failed|Save failed by 5 or more|Save failed by 10 or more.
    |1-2 level spells|3-4 level spells|5+ level spells
    Blinding|Dazzled: All foes have 10% concealment; -2 to Search, Spot, and AC.|Partially Blinded: All foes have 20% concealment; -5 to Search, Spot, and AC.|Blind: You cannot see-- all checks and activities that rely on vision automatically fail. All foes have total concealment; -5 AC, and no Dexterity bonus to AC.
    Madness: |Unsteady: 10%: Attack caster, 70%: Act normally, 20%: Flee|Confused: 10%: Attack caster, 50%: Act normally, 20%: Flee, 20%: Attack nearest creature|Insane: 10%: Attack caster, 10%: Act normally, 30%: Babble incoherently, 20%: Flee, 30%: Attack nearest creature
    Fatigue|Fatigued: -2 to Strength, Dexterity, Caster level, and spell save DCs|Exhausted: -5 to Strength, Dexterity, Caster level, and spell save DCs; speed halved, can't run or charge|Unconscious
    Fear|Shaken: -2 to attack rolls, mental skill checks, and Will saves|Frightened: -5 to attack rolls, mental skill checks, and Will saves, attempt to retreat|Panicked: -5 to attack rolls, mental skill checks, and Will saves, cannot do anything but flee. If you can't flee, you cower and take no actions.
    Impairing|Impaired: -2 to all rolls|Inhibited: -5 to all rolls|Disabled: Cannot take actions.
    Mind Control|Trusting: Improve the target's attitude one step (as the 3.5 Diplomacy skill), to a maximum of Friendly.|Charmed: Improve the target's attitude two steps, to a maximum of Helpful|Dominated: Improve the target's attitude 3 steps, to a maximum of Fanatic.
    Slowing|Hindered: Speed halved, can't run or charge, -2 attack and AC|Immobile: No movement, -5 to attack and AC, lose Dexterity bonus to AC|Paralyzed: Cannot take physical actions.
    Stunning|Stymied: No swift or full-round actions.|Dazed: One standard action per turn.|Stunned: Cannot take actions.
    Sudden Death|Weakened: -2 to all ability scores|[B]Drained: -5 to all ability scores|Dying: Reduced to -1 hit point, see below.
    [/table]

    Recovery
    First-degree conditions can be cured with an hour's rest, or 15 minutes of rest and a successful Heal check (DC equal to that of the effect that inflicted the condition.

    Second-degree conditions can be reduced to first degree with an hour's rest and a successful Heal check (DC equal to that of the effect that inflicted the condition.

    Third-degree conditions cannot be cured or reduced without magic. You may only make one Heal check per character's condition track per day, although you may treat multiple subjects suffering from the same conditions.

    Lesser restoration cures first degree conditions and improves second-degree conditions by one step. Restoration and Heal cure first and second-degree conditions,and improve third degree conditions to second degree. Greater restoration removes all conditions.

    Conditions also might reverse themselves if the effect inflicting them has a limited duration which expires.

    Condition-to-track conversion list
    {table]Ability Damage|Normal
    Ability Drain|Normal
    Blind|Blinding Track
    Confused|Madness Track
    Cowering|Fear track
    Dazed|Stunning track
    Dazzled|Blinding Track
    Deafened|Normal
    Dead|Dying track
    Disabled|Dying track
    Dying|Dying track
    Energy Drained|Normal
    Entangled|Slowing track
    Exhausted|Fatigue track
    Fascinated|Normal
    Fatigued|Fatigue track
    Flat-footed|Normal
    Frightened|Fear track
    Grappling|normal
    Helpless|Normal
    Nauseated|Impairing track
    Panicked|Fear track
    Paralyzed|Slowing + Impairing tracks
    Petrified|Slowing + Impairing tracks
    Prone|normal
    Shaken|Fear track
    Sickened|Impairing track
    Stunned|Stunning track
    Unconscious|Fatigue or Stunning track[/table]

    Things that follow a similar format

    Damage
    {table=head]Condition|Circumstance|Effect|Recovery
    Bloodied|Two-thirds or less total health remaining.|-1 to all rolls.|Magical healing to raise your current hit points above two-thirds of the maximum, or a Heal check (DC equal to damage taken) to eliminate the penalty.
    Injured|One-third or less total health remaining.|-2 to all rolls, and half speed.|Magical healing to raise your current hit points above one-third of the maximum, or a Heal check (DC equal to damage taken) to eliminate the penalty.
    Maimed|Zero hit points, or negative hit points and stable.|You may only take a single standard or move action per turn, and doing so inflicts one damage (reducing you to Dying)|Magical healing to raise your current hit points above zero, or a successful Fortitude save or Heal check (DC 10 + the absolute value of your negative hit points)
    Dying|-1 to (level + Constitution) hit points.|You may not take any actions except make Fortitude saves to recover (a full-round action. Each turn, you take one damage.|Magical healing to raise your current hit points above zero. Alternately, a successful Fortitude save or Heal check (DC 10 + the absolute value of your negative hit points) will improve your condition to Maimed.
    Dead|Less than (level + Constitution) hit points.|Game over, man, game over!|Resurrection magic.[/table]


    Wind
    {table]Strong Winds|Severe Winds|Catastrophic Winds
    Checked: Forward movement halted/prevented; flying creatures pushed back 1d6x5 feet|Knocked Down: Knocked prone; flying creatures pushed back 1d6x10 feet|Blown Away: Creatures on the ground are knocked prone and rolled 1d410 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. Flying creatures are blown back 2d610 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage due to battering and buffeting. [/table]
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-11-22 at 02:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
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    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    The Dying track is WAY to potent. In a given fight, all of those are effectively the same thing (you're out of the fight), and death is the most binary of all the results given. It needs to be times down severely if you want it in line with other conditions.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    The Dying track is WAY to potent. In a given fight, all of those are effectively the same thing (you're out of the fight), and death is the most binary of all the results given. It needs to be times down severely if you want it in line with other conditions.
    The dying track only seems to come into play if you're already at or below 0 hp though, unless I'm misunderstanding.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    The dying track only seems to come into play if you're already at or below 0 hp though, unless I'm misunderstanding.
    Pretty much, yeah. We'll probably be changing save-or-die spells some other way, too. (Also, the Dying track is the easiest to fix, as even a level 1 healing spell will put you back in the game, at least for a little while).
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    The dying track only seems to come into play if you're already at or below 0 hp though, unless I'm misunderstanding.
    Ah. See, I read it as an effect a spell could impart. And being reduced to 0hp instantly is only a BIT better than bein outright killed.

    Ingredients

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    Instructions

    Pour Djinn and tonic water into a glass filled with ice cubes. Stir well. Garnish with lime wedge. Serve.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    I guess we could have an insta-death track?

    2 negative levels, 5 negative levels, dying?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Made a few minor tweaks after some skype feedback from Eldan. The one that'll take the most work is giving names to each of the sub-conditions. Worth it?

    (also, feedback besides "dying track is painfully bad?")

    Oh, doy! Restoration! That probably needs some rules. hmm... back in a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    I'd suggest that normal rest removes the first conditions on the list, heal checks remove the second and only spells remove the third?
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Added names for the sub-conditions, and notes on recovery. Better late than never, eh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Disabled is listed twice: Once under Dying and once under Impairing. Might want to change the name of one of them. Otherwise, I really like what I'm seeing.
    Last edited by Dsurion; 2012-10-20 at 02:03 AM.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    Disabled is listed twice: Once under Dying and once under Impairing. Might want to change the name of one of them. Otherwise, I really like what I'm seeing.
    Whoops. Fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    I really like this, but I have a few question.

    First, I'm not certain that I understand the spell-level limits on "conditions caused" rule.
    Two things I want to confirm: if a level 1 spell would cause a condition and you fail your save by 10 or more, you still only get the First Degree condition.
    Next, if you are at a Second Degree condition, and you fail your save against a first level spell, you condition does not get worse.

    If either of those are incorrect, please tell me how it is supposed to function.


    Secondly, I'm not sold on The "Mind Control" track just yet. "Trusting" doesn't seem very powerful, even for a low level spell, and it's possible to get that as your result even with a high level spell if the character only fails their save by a small amount. What if instead the conditions where as follows:
    Trusting: Improve the creatures attitude towards you (similar to the Diplomacy skill) by 1 step, to no more than Friendly.
    Charmed: Improve the creatures attitude towards you by 2 steps, to no more than Helpful (if the target was already Trusting, this improves their attitude by 1 additional step).
    Dominated: Will follow any order without question (though orders that would lead directly to the character's death grant an additional save).
    [or something like that]


    Also, for the "Slowing" track, Immobile has the same -2 penalty as Hindered, despite most other second level conditions dropping to -5. I thought more severe conditions replaced instead of stacking, but it also doesn't list halving you speed or preventing charging, so I'm a little confused. If this isn't just a typo, can you please explain the rationale to me?


    In my magic fix, I stripped out a lot of the saves and balanced it other ways, but I might still try to work this in as well, somehow. Thanks for the ideas!


    Edit: For Blown Away, what about something like- you are knocked prone and pushed backwards 1d10x5 feet in a straight line away from the Spell's caster.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-10-20 at 06:33 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    First, I'm not certain that I understand the spell-level limits on "conditions caused" rule.
    Two things I want to confirm: if a level 1 spell would cause a condition and you fail your save by 10 or more, you still only get the First Degree condition.
    Next, if you are at a Second Degree condition, and you fail your save against a first level spell, you condition does not get worse.

    If either of those are incorrect, please tell me how it is supposed to function.
    Nope, you're entirely correct.

    Secondly, I'm not sold on The "Mind Control" track just yet. "Trusting" doesn't seem very powerful, even for a low level spell, and it's possible to get that as your result even with a high level spell if the character only fails their save by a small amount. What if instead the conditions where as follows:
    Trusting: Improve the creatures attitude towards you (similar to the Diplomacy skill) by 1 step, to no more than Friendly.
    Charmed: Improve the creatures attitude towards you by 2 steps, to no more than Helpful (if the target was already Trusting, this improves their attitude by 1 additional step).
    Dominated: Will follow any order without question (though orders that would lead directly to the character's death grant an additional save).
    [or something like that]
    Ooh, that's much better, thanks. Dominated can be "improve by 3 steps, to a maximum of Fanatical."

    Also, for the "Slowing" track, Immobile has the same -2 penalty as Hindered, despite most other second level conditions dropping to -5. I thought more severe conditions replaced instead of stacking, but it also doesn't list halving you speed or preventing charging, so I'm a little confused. If this isn't just a typo, can you please explain the rationale to me?
    Whoops. My bad.

    In my magic fix, I stripped out a lot of the saves and balanced it other ways, but I might still try to work this in as well, somehow. Thanks for the ideas!
    Glad you like it-- use what you will with my blessings, and feel free to shoot me a PM if you've got more questions.

    Edit: For Blown Away, what about something like- you are knocked prone and pushed backwards 1d10x5 feet in a straight line away from the Spell's caster.
    The wind track is pretty standard, though I perhaps ought to change it to a general knockback track. I'll copy the details from the SRD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Nope, you're entirely correct
    Hmm, ok then. My analysis is that this system might encourage players to use low-level spells first, and the order of the spells you cast can alter what conditions a target ends up with even when all other things are equal.

    That's not a bad thing (some people might even appreciate it), but it is something that's different. If anyone complains, one way to alter it would be to say that a low level spell can't push you more than 1 step further down the track no matter how badly you fail. For example, a level 1 spell cause blindness, and you fail by 11; you're Dazzled. The same spells is cast again, and you fail, again, and you are Partially Blinded.

    This isn't something I'm necessarily advocating, more just throwing it out there as an alternate option.


    Ooh, that's much better, thanks. Dominated can be "improve by 3 steps, to a maximum of Fanatical."
    Oh yeah, I totally forgot about epic skill uses.


    Glad you like it-- use what you will with my blessings, and feel free to shoot me a PM if you've got more questions.
    Will do.


    The wind track is pretty standard, though I perhaps ought to change it to a general knockback track. I'll copy the details from the SRD.
    I just saw the blank spot and was suggesting something to fill it in. The SRD version works fine, too.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-10-22 at 09:52 AM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    For consistency's sake, you should change the first step of Stunned to something other than Slowed, since you have a separate category for Slowing. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Maybe something like Stymied or Distracted?

    Also Blighted seems to be carry a bit more narrative weight than Impaired or Disabled and seems a little out of place. Blighted, to me, should belong in a separate category for Cursing, and should be replaced with something like Inhibited.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    For consistency's sake, you should change the first step of Stunned to something other than Slowed, since you have a separate category for Slowing. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Maybe something like Stymied or Distracted?

    Also Blighted seems to be carry a bit more narrative weight than Impaired or Disabled and seems a little out of place. Blighted, to me, should belong in a separate category for Cursing, and should be replaced with something like Inhibited.
    Good thoughts. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    I have no idea if this was brought up before, or if this is set in stone and you're not changing it, but allowing degrees to stack encourages all members of the party to get a few conditions and just spam abilities that inflict them. It encourages homogeneity, which is bad.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    That's something that will likely result, yes. However, I'd still rather have that than rocket tag where only the casters can contribute.
    If the rogue deals 30 damage and hinders someone with a hit, and the wizard then brings them from hindered to paralyzed with a spell and the fighter uses a CdG, the rogue's attack wasn't totally pointless. If it goes "Rogue deals 60 damage, wizard paralyzes, fighter CdG", the rogue did effectively nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I have no idea if this was brought up before, or if this is set in stone and you're not changing it, but allowing degrees to stack encourages all members of the party to get a few conditions and just spam abilities that inflict them. It encourages homogeneity, which is bad.
    Hmm... true... on the other hand, I don't see a way around that problem that doesn't make higher-leveled conditions impossible to reach or add inexcusable amounts of complexity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Major Works:
    • STaRS: The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
    • Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.
    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    That's something that will likely result, yes. However, I'd still rather have that than rocket tag where only the casters can contribute.
    If the rogue deals 30 damage and hinders someone with a hit, and the wizard then brings them from hindered to paralyzed with a spell and the fighter uses a CdG, the rogue's attack wasn't totally pointless. If it goes "Rogue deals 60 damage, wizard paralyzes, fighter CdG", the rogue did effectively nothing.
    I agree that rocket launcher tag is bad, but this "fix" doesn't solve that problem. Now you have "rogue impairs, necromancer shakens, ninja inhibits", and everyone looks at the necromancer with their sadface on because he could have helped knock the target out instead of poking it. Heck, you're encouraging all-wizard parties even more than before, because that way everyone will deal the same conditions with their attacks (you also encourage all-rogue parties, all-fighter parties, etc., but I don't think that's much of a plus.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Hmm... true... on the other hand, I don't see a way around that problem that doesn't make higher-leveled conditions impossible to reach or add inexcusable amounts of complexity.
    I feel you on this. The only solutions I can think of are limiting condition stacking (e.g. once per round, or only after taking X damage, etc.) and universal stacking (going from category I to II elevates all conditions). Both of those give kind of meh results, but I think you can take bits of all three and get a workable system. The bloodied mechanic seems like it could help encourage condition-blasters and damage-dealers.

    Then again you can also straight up admit that you're encouraging same-type parties and be done with it. But I like that option the least.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2012-10-23 at 05:07 PM.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I agree that rocket launcher tag is bad, but this "fix" doesn't solve that problem. Now you have "rogue impairs, necromancer shakens, ninja inhibits", and everyone looks at the necromancer with their sadface on because he could have helped knock the target out instead of poking it. Heck, you're encouraging all-wizard parties even more than before, because that way everyone will deal the same conditions with their attacks (you also encourage all-rogue parties, all-fighter parties, etc., but I don't think that's much of a plus.)
    I mean, it does at least mean that the entire party has to cooperate to land a crippling condition, instead of the wizard doing it with one spell, so it's still a significant improvement.

    I feel you on this. The only solutions I can think of are limiting condition stacking (e.g. once per round, or only after taking X damage, etc.) and universal stacking (going from category I to II elevates all conditions). Both of those give kind of meh results, but I think you can take bits of all three and get a workable system. The bloodied mechanic seems like it could help encourage condition-blasters and damage-dealers.
    Hmm... universal stacking doesn't seem good for anyone. 1/round slows things down, but doesn't eliminate the problem. We could eliminate stacking altogether, but that may weaken conditions too much. Then again, maybe not. Hmm...
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    That's something that will likely result, yes. However, I'd still rather have that than rocket tag where only the casters can contribute.
    If the rogue deals 30 damage and hinders someone with a hit, and the wizard then brings them from hindered to paralyzed with a spell and the fighter uses a CdG, the rogue's attack wasn't totally pointless. If it goes "Rogue deals 60 damage, wizard paralyzes, fighter CdG", the rogue did effectively nothing.
    Rogues are a bad example, as if the rogue is just a sneak-attack-capable fighter, then there's not much point in the class.

    But yes, rocket tag with only casters contributing is a Bad Thing. Conditions are one way to deal with that; others are to weaken casters to the point where they need to work with the team to accomplish anything, or to give everyone the ability to do one-hit mission-kills and let everyone get their share (I do not advise this last one.)

    As for preventing homogeneity, though, I would advise making it harder to stack conditions than simply "fail the save 3 times and you're out". Perhaps someone affected by a condition gets a +2 or +3 bonus per existing level of the condition to avoid taking more of that condition; that way, going for the top levels sometimes isn't worth it and it's sometimes better just to pile on the low-level conditions until he's near worthless and can be finished off.

    Another approach to preventing homogeneity might be to make different classes or builds capable of different condition tracks, with those classes/builds capable of all condition tracks being substantially weaker at it than any of the specialists. Throw in monsters which are immune to certain condition tracks, and you've got incentive not to homogenize.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2012-10-23 at 05:50 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    You have to consider that some conditions also lower saves. So, giving someone several level 1 conditions makes applying the higher ones easier.
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    As for preventing homogeneity, though, I would advise making it harder to stack conditions than simply "fail the save 3 times and you're out". Perhaps someone affected by a condition gets a +2 or +3 bonus per existing level of the condition to avoid taking more of that condition; that way, going for the top levels sometimes isn't worth it and it's sometimes better just to pile on the low-level conditions until he's near worthless and can be finished off.
    Hmm. Not a bad thought.

    Edit: Also nerfed the Fear track a bit.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-10-23 at 06:39 PM.
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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    This looks solid mechanically. But you have 30 different conditions, many of which have extremely similar names. When you're in a game, you're going to have a very bad time keeping track of what exactly the effect of "Impaired" is, and whether it's better or worse than being "Inhibited" (Impaired sounds worse to me, but it gives a smaller penalty...). And keeping track of the three different tables in the Confusion condition tree sounds like it would be all but impossible unless you keep a copy of this table printed out and readily available at all times, or you and your players are extremely good at memorization.

    Binary effects are used in spells because they are simple, and spells are already the game's most complex mechanic. This change could work fine in a computer game, when a lot of this stuff is tracked behind the scenes. But when the wizard casts confusion on a small group of enemies, and there are four possible effects that each enemy could suffer from that single spell (unaffected, plus any of the three conditions), and each enemy has to be randomly rolled separately... you're going to have a bad time.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    I'd have recommend that players keep a copy of the table and use markers to track conditions anyway, given how much easier that is to visualize. You're right to call out the confusion track, though: it is overly complicated, far more than any other. Not sure what to replace it with, though. Maybe just drop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
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    • Chopping Down the Christmas Tree: Rules for low- or no-magic item games of 3.5.
    • D&D in M&M-- Balancing 3.5 by porting it lock, stock, and barrel into a more balanced system.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    That works for players, though I think that making everyone keep a separate piece of paper just for this is just a band-aid solution to a fundamental complexity issue that still exists.

    For the DM, however, it's still a whole lot of complexity to track. I know it's hard to test this when you don't have the full system built, but I can basically guarantee that any AOE debuffs using a -5/-10 save progression system will slow the game down a lot the instant they are cast. I mean, think about how much the game already slows down when something basic like a fireball or fear is cast on group of more than a couple creatures. That's a binary pass/fail effect, and rolling the saving throws for every monster and tracking the effects can still take time. Naturally, this depends on how much your playgroup uses debuffs, and how much patience you have, but I think this will make spells a fair bit more complex.

    If you're trying to avoid binary effects (which is not a bad thing in principle), I'd recommend using only a "fail by 10" threshold instead of a "fail by 5" threshold; that way, it doesn't come up as much, which reduces how much complexity you have to track. Each spell would have a default condition that it would inflict on a failed save, and it would worsen if the "fail by 10" threshold was reached. In general, AOE spells would inflict conditions one step less severe than single-targeted spells of the same level.

    With that revision, AOE spells would only have three possible outcomes (unaffected, affected, super-affected), instead of four. Still more complex than binary, but not in a painful way.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    If this helps at all, 3.U uses the following tracks:

    Senses: Dazzled, Impaired, Blinded/Deafened
    Fear: Shaken, Frightened, Panicked
    Stunning: Staggered, Dazed, Stunned
    Fatigue: Fatigued, Exhausted, Unconscious
    Paralysis: Slowed, Immobile, Paralysed
    Mind-Control: Influenced, Charmed, Dominated
    Illness: Repulsed, Sickened, Nauseated
    Confusion: Fascinated/Intoxicated, Confused, Insane

    Dazzled/Shaken/Fatigued/Repulsed: -2 to all rolls

    Impaired: -2 AC, opponents have 20% concealment
    Blinded/Deafened: Disadvantage to perceive, attacks against you at advantage

    Frightened: Disadvantage on rolls within presence of bestower
    Panicked: Disadcantage on rolls within presence of bestower and flees

    Staggered/Sickened: only one standard or move action per turn, other actions unaffected
    Dazed/Nauseated: Only one action per turn, cannot make AoOs
    Stunned: Cannot take actions, attackers have advantage

    Exhausted: cannot double move or charge, disadvantage on reflex saves
    Unconscious: Drops anything held, falls prone and cannot act.

    Slowed: All movement halved
    Immobile: Cannot move (speed = 0), disadvantage on reflex saves
    Paralyzed: cannot move (speed = 0), cannot act and disadvantage on reflex saves

    Influenced: Disposition towards charmer improves by one step, charmer has advantage on checks to socially interact with you
    Charmed: Regard charmer as friend/ally, and cannot attack them. Charmer has advantage on checks to socially interact with you
    Dominated: You are under the control of the charmer, losing the majority of your free will and following commands to the best of your ability. Certain circumstances may allow additional saves

    Fascinated: Cannot take actions. Breaking concentration ends this condition
    Intoxicated: Disadvantage on skill and attack rolls, need to pass DC 10 Fort save to cast a spell or similar ability
    Confused: Every round 50% act normally, 25% do nothing, 25% attack last attacker. In lieu of last attacker, nearest creature
    Insane: Every round 20% act normally, 40% do nothing, 40% attack last attacker. In lieu of last attacker, nearest creature

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    You have to consider that some conditions also lower saves. So, giving someone several level 1 conditions makes applying the higher ones easier.
    There are two, impairing and fear. Managing to get one of those effects on nets you a -2 to their save (will for fear, or any for impairment). Say we have a 50% success rate, that now becomes a 60% success rate.

    So there's a 50% chance of giving a 60%. That means there is an overall 30% chance of hitting an enemy with an extra condition. Alternatively, you could just cast a given spell twice instead of debuffing and have a 75% chance of getting the effect on. Condition spamming is more than twice as effective over debuffing, and my preliminary calculations show that this trend doesn't break for almost any normal range of saves.

    I actually like the idea of encouraging synergy with varying save debuffs, but the current set-up is nowhere near successful. You need much bigger penalties to make that sort of strategy worthwhile.

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    Default Re: G&G: Conditions

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I actually like the idea of encouraging synergy with varying save debuffs, but the current set-up is nowhere near successful. You need much bigger penalties to make that sort of strategy worthwhile.
    The problem there is that we get back into the territory of a single spell being crippling...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
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