Good (or at least, not evil) Drows

[t209]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237581
This comic is the only D&D comic to show not only Orcs and goblins, but also drow as living beings discriminated for being "monsters". I would put Drizzt but his character is clinched and made fun of.
The only "good" dark elves I know are
1. Drowtales (Though most of them are jerks in my opinion)
2. Morrowind (Lives in volcanic area, but still hold slaves and have racist views towards non Dark Elves but considered as greyscale in Elderscrolls Universe).

[Water_Bear]

Yeah, it's kind of a problem how few good Dark Elves there are. Especially since Elves are the paragons of Mary Sue-ness and are typically white blonds.

I guess, technically, the original Norse Dökkálfar (Dark Elves) and Svartálfar (Black Elves/Dwarves) were pretty decent dudes unless you tried to pull a fast one on them. Maybe not "Good," but Lawful Neutral sounds about right.

[t209]

Yeah, it's kind of a problem how few good Dark Elves there are. Especially since Elves are the paragons of Mary Sue-ness and are typically white blonds.

I guess, technically, the original Norse Dökkálfar (Dark Elves) and Svartálfar (Black Elves/Dwarves) were pretty decent dudes unless you tried to pull a fast one on them. Maybe not "Good," but Lawful Neutral sounds about right.

So how about the one from Amalur?

[Prime32]

In LotR most of the elves other than Galadriel were dark elves, including Elrond.

[Water_Bear]

So how about the one from Amalur?

From who now?

[t209]

From who now?

from the game, "Kingdoms of Amalur: The Reckoning".

[Water_Bear]

from the game, "Kingdoms of Amalur: The Reckoning".

I've never played it, but their wikipedia page and the Zero Punctuation review I watched make them sound kind of generic.

[Senator Cybus]

In the Bioware CRPG Baldur's Gate 2, Viconia the female Drow cleric starts off evil, but, away from the influence of the Underdark, ends up with a neutral alignment by the end.

Assuming that you pursue a romance with her, and get that just right. And don't mind her referring to you as 'filth' for about 80% of the game.

[t209]

Does Salamanders Space Marine count as good drows? They look like drows (dark skins, red eye, and inhabits cavern cities), but they are the real paladins (space wolves are too chaotic to be paladins) and willing to protect innocent civilians from enemies, completely different from Greay Knights (looked like a spawn of Miko and Kore).

[Kitten Champion]

Does Salamanders Space Marine count as good drows? They look like drows (dark skins, red eye, and inhabits cavern cities), but they are the real paladins (space wolves are too chaotic to be paladins) and willing to protect innocent civilians from enemies, completely different from Greay Knights (looked like a spawn of Miko and Kore).

I don't think so, they're just an underground society of humans -- by WH40K reckoning at least. Same as, for instance, Morlocks.

As compared to the Dark Eldar who are the de facto Drow and were obviously made for this trope.


There is a Dark Elf society in Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, although their colouring and capacity to generate spheres of darkness are the only reasons they'd be referred to as Dark. Otherwise they play the usual Elves role in the universe.

This is similar to the Dark Elves in The Chronicles of Siala series, by Alexey Pehov. The Dark Elves are the only Elves the protagonists meets, and while somewhat haughty and difficult to deal with, are Lawful Good. They, the Light Elves -- and the Orcs for that matter -- are virtually identical. The major difference between the Light and Dark Elves is the magic they choose to use, with Dark Elves being shamanistic and Light Elves employing human arcane magic. They're all, literally, dark-skinned and have generally dark features.

Other than that, Romulans from Star Trek. Some of whom are neutral or good. And.. Dark Templar from Starcraft.

[Kyberwulf]

Night Elves from World of Warcraft. They are good Dark Elves.

[TheThan]

How about Pirotess from Record of Lodoss War.

[t209]

Night Elves from World of Warcraft. They are good Dark Elves.

They are the ones who introduce me to Dark Elves. Though did not realize them as evil until I read OOTS.
Edit: And Murphy's Law (By Coffee Included) is the only one to portray Drows as good aligned (Most positive drows, except Drizzt, are portrayed as jerkass), swamp dwelling and portrayed as oppressed species (like Redcloak's reason).

[pffh]

I guess, technically, the original Norse Dökkálfar (Dark Elves) and Svartálfar (Black Elves/Dwarves) were pretty decent dudes unless you tried to pull a fast one on them. Maybe not "Good," but Lawful Neutral sounds about right.

Those are much closer to small trolls and goblins then traditional fantasy elves though.

[MLai]

How about Pirotess from Record of Lodoss War.

She's the hot elf.
Therefore good or evil is irrelevant.

[Chromascope3D]

Those are much closer to small trolls and goblins then traditional fantasy elves though.

The latter are, yes. The former, however, are about as traditional as elves can get.

[pffh]

The latter are, yes. The former, however, are about as traditional as elves can get.

Not really. To quote Gylfaginningu:

Sá er einn staðr þar, er kallaðr er Álfheimr. Þar byggvir fólk þat, er Ljósálfar heita, en Dökkálfar búa niðri í jörðu, ok eru þeir ólíkir þeim sýnum ok miklu ólíkari reyndum. Ljósálfar eru fegri en sól sýnum, en Dökkálfar eru svartari en bik

What this says is that Dökkálfar live underground are black (ie ugly and well black) and do not look or act like the Ljósálfar. Furthermore in pictures and carvings they're depicted as fairly trollish.

And considering this paragraph in Gylfaginning is the only primary source we have on them I think we should go with that depiction.

[Chromascope3D]

What this says is that Dökkálfar live underground are black (ie ugly and well black) and do not look or act like the Ljósálfar. Furthermore in pictures and carvings they're depicted as fairly trollish.

That quote merely says that Light Elves are really light and Dark Elves are really dark. Other than that, it doesn't specify exactly how else they look different. Also, where can I find these pictures?

The thing is, even if they look somewhat more like a troll, what makes them any different? At heart, they are still the same Dark Elves that half of modern fantasy elves are based off of (The other half being Light Elves).

[pffh]

That quote merely says that Light Elves are really light and Dark Elves are really dark. Other than that, it doesn't specify exactly how else they look different. Also, where can I find these pictures?

The thing is, even if they look somewhat more like a troll, what makes them any different? At heart, they are still the same Dark Elves that half of modern fantasy elves are based off of (The other half being Light Elves).

In the sagas when someone is described as dark it usually means ugly, note that it says "the lightelves are prettier then the sun but the darkelves are as black as coal".

The quote also says that they do not look like them (understatements are common and this can be understood as they really do not at all look anything like the lightelves) and "miklu ólíkari reyndum" is basically saying that they are at least not to be trusted if not downright evil.

And right now I'm not finding any pictures since for some reason google refuses to give me icelandic results only english ones so I'll concede on that point. But how can modern fantasy elves be based on something that we do not really know anything about other then what says in that paragraph?

Same goes for the Light Elves since again they are only mentioned in that paragraph.

Aren't modern fantasy elves based in the British idea of elves? The Norse ones have always been more dickish then the fantasy elves. Especially the Hidden people.

[Chromascope3D]

But how can modern fantasy elves be based on something that we do not really know anything about other then what says in that paragraph?

Because all modern elves are based on Tolkein's interpretation of that one paragraph. He believed it to mean that Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar looked like each other, but with skin on opposite ends of the light spectrum, so he wrote it into his novels. And every other aspiring fantasy author followed suit after that.

Thus, modern Dark Elves are the same as Dökkálfar by direct descendance of interpretation.

[pffh]

Because all modern elves are based on Tolkein's interpretation of that one paragraph. He believed it to mean that Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar looked like each other, but with skin on opposite ends of the light spectrum, so he wrote it into his novels. And every other aspiring fantasy author followed suit after that.

Thus, modern Dark Elves are the same as Dökkálfar by direct descendance of interpretation.

Oh alright then.

Still untrustworthy buggers.

[MLai]

Because all modern elves are based on Tolkein's interpretation of that one paragraph. He believed it to mean that Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar looked like each other, but with skin on opposite ends of the light spectrum, so he wrote it into his novels.

Wait wait wait, WHAT?!
Tolkien never wrote about elves like these:

[Jayngfet]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237581
This comic is the only D&D comic to show not only Orcs and goblins, but also drow as living beings discriminated for being "monsters". I would put Drizzt but his character is clinched and made fun of.
The only "good" dark elves I know are
1. Drowtales (Though most of them are jerks in my opinion)
2. Morrowind (Lives in volcanic area, but still hold slaves and have racist views towards non Dark Elves but considered as greyscale in Elderscrolls Universe).

Drowtales elves are slaving bastards largely ruled by factions of insane nobility. They treat non-elves like literal animals and about half of them see no problem with infecting their souls with parasite demons. It may or may not also be canon that they're also child molestors but the fact that such a thing was even written in to begin with is disturbing enough even without the subtext making it very clear the author thought that was ok.

They are in no, way, shape, or form good. They are viewpoint characters but the viewpoint has, unless the retcons have gotten even more drastic and mary-sueful since I jumped ship, always been about sociopathic stab happy idiots. The fact that they also happen to be the author's fetish doesn't change the fact.

[Knaight]

If one is willing to use a space opera equivalent, there are certain factions within the Protoss of Starcraft. The protoss are long lived creatures who are magically psionically powerful and that use swords energy blades heavily, while having a nature connected culture. In short, they are space elves. The dark templar are pretty much Drow equivalents in a lot of ways.

[MLai]

I'm surprised you mentioned Protoss instead of Eldar.

[Chromascope3D]

Wait wait wait, WHAT?!
Tolkien never wrote about elves like these:

Indeed he did. They were mentioned in the Silmarillion as Elves with dark skin, who never made the Great Journey across the sea. Fantasy authors took that idea and ran with it, leaving us with the Dark Elves we identify today.

I don't remember if he specified that they lived underground, but since the Dökkálfar did, and there's nothing keeping people from picking up the Prose Edda and reading it, it's likely that they could've taken that trait directly from the source, and the rest from Tolkein.

[Knaight]

I'm surprised you mentioned Protoss instead of Eldar.

I'm probably going to have to turn in the remnants of my geek cred here, but I generally dislike Warhammer 40K, and don't bother tracking it in any detail as a result.

[MasterGhandalf]

In the Malazan Book of the Fallen series, the Tiste (local elf-equivalents) somewhat turn the traditional light/dark elf dichotomy on its head. Though the series as a whole is very grey-shaded and cynical, the Tiste Andii (dark elves, basically, who strongly resemble drow down to their leader, Anomander Rake, having white hair, though not all Andii do) are generally cast as a positive, sympathetic faction, albeit one given rather more to angsty brooding than is strictly good for them. The Tiste Liosan (your traditional blond, pale High Elves) are by contrast pretty horrible and ideological extremists obsessed with purity. The Tiste Edur (associated with shadows) end up somewhere in the middle.

[MLai]

@ Cdr. Fallout:
I remember that part of the Simarillion. The elves who didn't go on the pilgrimage across the sea. But they're not "dark skinned." Nor were they radically different from the normal elves (the way the normal D&D elves differ from the D&D drow). They were simply the elves who didn't go. They're called "Of Darkness" because they never bathed in the light of Valinor, not because they look like photo negatives or live underground.

@ Knaight:
Why do you dislike W40K but is ok with Starcraft, if I may ask?

[Forum Explorer]

I'm surprised you mentioned Protoss instead of Eldar.

The Dark Eldar can't be considered good in any way.