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    Default Extra Spell Chameleon

    The Chameleon prestige class has the only available floating feat (that I know of) in D&D 3.5

    One well known trick is to use the floating feat to take Extra Spell over and over again, allowing the Chameleon to make a spell book with any spell they like (and craft utility scrolls of up to 5th spell level).

    Extra Spell is limited by only allowing you to learn a spell of 1 level lower than your highest you can currently cast. Is there a way to boost the Chameleon's spell level up to 7 so it can access the 6th level spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer list?

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Is Chameleon's spellcasting compatible with Sublime Cord? That's the only way I can think of expanding the spellcasting.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    Is Chameleon's spellcasting compatible with Sublime Cord? That's the only way I can think of expanding the spellcasting.
    I don't think so. The Chameleon's casting cannot be used to qualify for prc reqs, so you would need to have 4th level casting in something else and then apply it to the Chameleon instead. Which is possible, but probably not feasible in a pre-epic campaign

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Earth Spell? When you Heighten a spell it's treated as 1 extra level higher. So Heighten a spell to 6th, it is now a 7th, and use Extra Spell to grab a new 6th.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2012-10-07 at 12:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Earth Spell looks like my best bet. Takes it up two levels and can be done anywhere there is earth.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    This might not be a satisfactory response, but here's a link to the relevant section of the Chameleon's handbook.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Why would extra spell be relevant to a chameleon? It explicitly says they can prepare prepare arcane and divine spells from any list. I guess you could do a 2 level dip as a caster, but that doesn't seem like it would be worthwhile.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Why would extra spell be relevant to a chameleon? It explicitly says they can prepare prepare arcane and divine spells from any list. I guess you could do a 2 level dip as a caster, but that doesn't seem like it would be worthwhile.
    The exact wording is a little vague, but the whole "you prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard" plus the lack of something directly stating that you know every spell in the arcane book has lead my group to believe that you still need to have a spellbook with the spells written you want written into it. In other words, you don't get to cherry pick each day. Rather, you can learn any spell from any arcane list, but you still need to write them down and memorize them (hence why it specifically references using spellbooks).

    Other groups may decide otherwise, but that is how it has been interpreted whenever it comes up in my group.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    That's entirely reasonable, but there's still nothing preventing you from writing down wu jen or bard spells. Those exist in the spellbooks of other chameleons, on scrolls, etc. just like anything else.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    For all that trouble, shouldn't you go with a divine chameleon instead?

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    For all that trouble, shouldn't you go with a divine chameleon instead?
    all other things being equal arcane > divine.

    I'm curious if this is even legal though. Does extra spell require any spellcasting ability? If it does you can't qualify for it with your chameleon spellcasting.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-07 at 01:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    It requires a caster level, which usually makes a few levels in a casting class useful before class entry. Or SLA templates, if playing with LA buyoff.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    all other things being equal arcane > divine.
    Focusing on divine means you can use Divine Metamagic and don't have to bother with Extra Spell cheese, you simply have all spells by default. There are also more classes with discount spell lists for the divine side then there are for arcane. When it comes to Chameleon, I'm pretty sure divine > arcane, specially once we remember Divine Bard and Shugenja are around.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Focusing on divine means you can use Divine Metamagic and don't have to bother with Extra Spell cheese, you simply have all spells by default. There are also more classes with discount spell lists for the divine side then there are for arcane. When it comes to Chameleon, I'm pretty sure divine > arcane, specially once we remember Divine Bard and Shugenja are around.
    Add to that domains, paladin, ranger, and adept spell list. The divine chameleon is not hurting for good spells to cast.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    Add to that domains, paladin, ranger, and adept spell list. The divine chameleon is not hurting for good spells to cast.
    But on the arcane side you get access to Trapsmith spells! Greater Dispel Magic as a 3rd level spell! Haste as a 1st level spell! The ability to make the cheapest utility items this side of a zeroficer!

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    But on the arcane side you get access to Trapsmith spells! Greater Dispel Magic as a 3rd level spell! Haste as a 1st level spell! The ability to make the cheapest utility items this side of a zeroficer!
    I'm not saying you won't miss a few things, but you get similar goodies on the divine side. Greater Dispel Magic as a 4th level spell, Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell, Hunter's Eye, Favor of the Martyr.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Arcane Focus, but until you can do both/get access to more spells, I think divine has the edge.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Focusing on divine means you can use Divine Metamagic and don't have to bother with Extra Spell cheese, you simply have all spells by default. There are also more classes with discount spell lists for the divine side then there are for arcane. When it comes to Chameleon, I'm pretty sure divine > arcane, specially once we remember Divine Bard and Shugenja are around.
    You can't really use DMM as an argument here though. A chameleon can't qualify for it without a dip in a turning class, at which point you'd probably be better off just using that class to begin with. With persistence out of the equation you've got arcane=divine at best.

    After all, a chameleon doesn't have any more difficulty aquiring new spells for his book than a wizard does. The extra spell trick seems entirely unnecessary, especially since you have to have casting ability outside of chameleon to use it. It'd be useful if the DM was stingy about giving access to new spells, but he'd probably just nerf the trick out of existence in that case anyway.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Whether you have Cleric levels or not, Cleric is usually stronger than chameleon. Dipping the first cleric level doesn't suddenly introduce it as an alternative.

    Besides, most arcane chameleons are also going to be dipping 3+ levels in a casting class anyway. Cutting that option out of a Divine-focused build seems arbitrary.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-10-08 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    You can't really use DMM as an argument here though. A chameleon can't qualify for it without a dip in a turning class, at which point you'd probably be better off just using that class to begin with. With persistence out of the equation you've got arcane=divine at best.

    After all, a chameleon doesn't have any more difficulty aquiring new spells for his book than a wizard does. The extra spell trick seems entirely unnecessary, especially since you have to have casting ability outside of chameleon to use it. It'd be useful if the DM was stingy about giving access to new spells, but he'd probably just nerf the trick out of existence in that case anyway.
    I disagree with you here. The Chameleon gets access to all divine spells in existence, and can apply persist to any of the personal ones. A dip into Cleric is one of the classic Chameleon builds, because you can grab undead domain for free extra turning. Aspect of the Earth Hunter+Bite of the WereBear gets you all of the important feats for melee and an ungodly strength score.

    It also allows you to make one of the best grapple builds in the game. You stack spells like Balor Nimbus and Body Blades to do a lot of damage automatically whenever you are in a grapple.

    The difference here is that you may want to learn spells while actually out doing things, rather than in ye olde magik shoppe. It is true that I can buy every spell in existence, but this is both cheaper and more mobile.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I disagree with you here. The Chameleon gets access to all divine spells in existence, and can apply persist to any of the personal ones. A dip into Cleric is one of the classic Chameleon builds, because you can grab undead domain for free extra turning. Aspect of the Earth Hunter+Bite of the WereBear gets you all of the important feats for melee and an ungodly strength score.

    It also allows you to make one of the best grapple builds in the game. You stack spells like Balor Nimbus and Body Blades to do a lot of damage automatically whenever you are in a grapple.

    The difference here is that you may want to learn spells while actually out doing things, rather than in ye olde magik shoppe. It is true that I can buy every spell in existence, but this is both cheaper and more mobile.
    Then why not use early entry shenanigans with the levels before chameleon to qualify for incantatrix and advance chameleon casting with it? Being able to persist any and all arcane spells seems just as worthwhile as being able to persist any and all divine ones.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Then why not use early entry shenanigans with the levels before chameleon to qualify for incantatrix and advance chameleon casting with it? Being able to persist any and all arcane spells seems just as worthwhile as being able to persist any and all divine ones.
    Other than closing all of the other options for a Chameleon? A persistmeleon can take every level of chameleon and still make full use of its other abilities. An incantatrix chameleon has to pour every ounce of its resources into prc reqs and the incantatrix only supports the arcane side.

    Which isn't to say it is mechanically inferior, but a divine persist chameleon can still pull off the entire arcane list of up to 6th levels spells. An incantatrix chameleon gets to cast just those arcane spells, and loses all of its divine casting as well as the other chameleon effects.

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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    And, a DMM Persistameleon will get to Persist a full list of Divine buffs, and then use Arcane spells during combat.

    Cleric1 with Destroy Undead, and the DLCS Sun domain gets two pools of turning, and a dip for Dread Necro to get a third is not out of the question. Throw in the Undeath Domain for quite a few turn attempts. Since these dips happen before chameleon, it doesn't screw up your casting progression at all.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    I'm still not convinced, but I'll concede for lack of any solid argument to the contrary.

    I still say that's closer to divine=arcane more than divine > arcane on a chameleon.
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    Default Re: Extra Spell Chameleon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I'm still not convinced, but I'll concede for lack of any solid argument to the contrary.

    I still say that's closer to divine=arcane more than divine > arcane on a chameleon.
    I think it shifts over the life of a chameleon personally. It is just that by the time Arcane completely catches up, a Chameleon should be able to do both.
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    Regarding my Necrotic Apprentice trick:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    This is brilliant.
    Regarding my Non-Epic Hidecarved Dragon:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah.

    Have a cookie.
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