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Thread: Twin Hooks?

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Twin Hooks?

    Twin kama trippers are pretty good. Your modifier may be normal and you may not have reach but the sheer number of attempts is surprisingly useful. You can only use one in a grapple so your first level feat should probably be stunning fist. Your typical attack routine would be move + stunning kick or stunning kick + kama trip + kama trip(s). Much better than the standard trip + derp/hope for an AoO. It also compensates for monk BAB & AC because trip attempts are touch attacks and you effectively get a +4 to both against prone targets. I hope this goes without saying that str > wis on a monk, but doubly so on a tripper. Lots of potions of enlarge person will be very helpful. Mage armor is nice too. 2nd level feat should be combat reflexes of course.

    You could trip with twin sickles too and they look identical to hooks except sickles are not monk weapons. So instead you settle for twin kamas that look like mini-scythes or you refluff them with DM permission.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-10-09 at 05:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Twin Hooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Twin kama trippers are pretty good. Your modifier may be normal and you may not have reach but the sheer number of attempts is surprisingly useful. You can only use one in a grapple so your first level feat should probably be stunning fist. Your typical attack routine would be move + stunning kick or stunning kick + kama trip + kama trip(s). Much better than the standard trip + derp/hope for an AoO. It also compensates for monk BAB & AC because trip attempts are touch attacks and you effectively get a +4 to both against prone targets. I hope this goes without saying that str > wis on a monk, but doubly so on a tripper. Lots of potions of enlarge person will be very helpful. Mage armor is nice too. 2nd level feat should be combat reflexes of course.

    You could trip with twin sickles too and they look identical to hooks except sickles are not monk weapons. So instead you settle for twin kamas that look like mini-scythes or you refluff them with DM permission.
    Secrets of Sarlona says I can use the hook swords to disarm, which, combined with stunning fist/Pharoah's Fist/Weakening Touch/Stunning Master, combined with our party's Dwarven Warpike wielding reach-fighter, should combine to ruin some mooks' days. :) Fail your save and you and everyone around you are stunned and sickened. And your weapons are gone. Also, the angry Dwarf woman with the oversized pike is just waiting for her turn.
    Last edited by Uhtred; 2012-10-09 at 07:19 PM.
    ~Othar wanted me to know so that I would tell men that Othar the Storm-Rider had died well, and I had told him to keep a tight hold of his sword so that Othar the Storm-Rider would go to the feast hall in Valhalla where all warriors who die bravely go after death. These days, although I am old and feeble, I always wear a sword, so that when death comes I will go to that far hall where men like Othar wait for me. I look forward to meeting them.~

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Nice. The thing with disarm is that it's easier to succeed at than trip but not everything has weapons. Trip is more reliable. You might want to look into the campaign style. That said I got the idea for an attack spamming disabler from an old disarmer of mine. Getting surrounded, low on health and then saying "no no no" to each foe was quite something. I only wish I went monk for one more attack since my checks were so high anyway. Then came the first and only time I ran into a monster with locked gauntlets in all my days of playing D&D.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-10-09 at 06:30 PM.
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    Dwarven Warpikes can trip, right? So theoretically, if I stun/disarm them, she can put them on the ground, and together we can AoO them when they get back up/try to retrieve their weapons/draw new weapons?
    ~Othar wanted me to know so that I would tell men that Othar the Storm-Rider had died well, and I had told him to keep a tight hold of his sword so that Othar the Storm-Rider would go to the feast hall in Valhalla where all warriors who die bravely go after death. These days, although I am old and feeble, I always wear a sword, so that when death comes I will go to that far hall where men like Othar wait for me. I look forward to meeting them.~

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    Almost except it's funnier than that. Your attack of opportunity happens before the triggering action so you can't disarm someone who's about to go for a weapon nor trip someone who's about to get up. You can disarm someone who's trying to stand up and trip someone who's trying to pick up his weapon. So they go back and forth from one frustrating problem to another. Well it looks like you have some nice teamwork going. Poor foes.

    I believe rules compendium has rules for tripping a flying creature (it tumbles to the ground). You may want to look into rules for disarming objects to take out things like holy symbols, spell component pouches and macguffins. Retrieving a stored backup object provokes an attack of opportunity btw, unless they have a Heward's Handy Haversack.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-10-09 at 08:33 PM.
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    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
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    We're also looking at our party Rogue using alchemical items, invisibility, and sneak attack, and probably boots of flying. So we'll stun, trip, immobilize with tanglefoot bag, disarm, and collectively AoO foes while the Rogue sneak-attacks invisibly with a longbow from 30ft up, all the way down to negative HP. For being a game I was not excited about, I'm almost giddy.
    ~Othar wanted me to know so that I would tell men that Othar the Storm-Rider had died well, and I had told him to keep a tight hold of his sword so that Othar the Storm-Rider would go to the feast hall in Valhalla where all warriors who die bravely go after death. These days, although I am old and feeble, I always wear a sword, so that when death comes I will go to that far hall where men like Othar wait for me. I look forward to meeting them.~

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    Default Re: Twin Hooks?

    Jack B Quick area disable variants are my personal fetish, so I approve of this plan.

    Also my melee monsters typically use locked gauntlets - it's just a basic thing if you're a brawler, and you only really use one weapon, not to get that knocked out of your hands by stuff.

    There was an ogre I ran that had locked gauntlets for his greatsword that could flip a mechanical lever and unlock 30' of chain for Bloodstorm Blade style area-****ing shenanigans. That was an interesting fight for the PCs.

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    Default Re: Twin Hooks?

    Man, we can't have a Monk thread without someone shamelessly plugging homebrew, can we?

    My advice is to get the ability from the Scorpion Kama (MIC) on your swords. Also, since you seem to like stunning fist, check out Pharaoh's Fist from Sandstorm and get Ki Straps from MIC. There are plenty of decent feats for Stunning Fist.
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-10-10 at 03:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Man, we can't have a Monk thread without someone shamelessly plugging homebrew, can we?

    My advice is to get the ability from the Scorpion Kama (MIC) on your swords. Also, since you seem to like stunning fist, check out Pharaoh's Fist from Sandstorm and get Ki Straps from MIC. There are plenty of decent feats for Stunning Fist.
    It's better than it used to be. Used to be that you could hardly post a comment with the word monk in it without getting at least a dozen responses that distilled down to "Monks suck. Reroll if you can and suicide if you can't." Suicide in this case meaning either leave the group or play as wrecklessly as possible to deliberately get your monk killed.
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    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Man, we can't have a Monk thread without someone shamelessly plugging homebrew, can we?
    Not my fault that jiriku-Monk is one of the most awesome things I've ever read, and I'm not even the type who normally cares about homebrew of any kind. Heck, I wasn't even thinking about power levels when I posted it here, the OP said something about Cool FactorTM and I immediately thought "Dance With the Elements."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Man, we can't have a Monk thread without someone shamelessly plugging homebrew, can we?
    Even when the OP states that 85% of his build must be from core and the first 5 levels must be in a single class (and for him that class must be Monk).
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    Ah. It's a shame that you don't like Fire Monks, since PHB2 has some fire themed feats (that replace or augment your stunning fist powers).

    Please please please please take an Eversmoking Bottle as your magic item.



    Given the same constraints, I'd simply take 20 levels of Monk.

    Although my favourite Monks are the ones that can at-will teleport around the battlefield, getting a free attack after each teleport, unfortunately that requires caster levels to pull off (or umpty-tillion levels of the House mumble mumble prestige class from Eberron).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alienist View Post
    Ah. It's a shame that you don't like Fire Monks, since PHB2 has some fire themed feats (that replace or augment your stunning fist powers).

    Please please please please take an Eversmoking Bottle as your magic item.



    Given the same constraints, I'd simply take 20 levels of Monk.

    Although my favourite Monks are the ones that can at-will teleport around the battlefield, getting a free attack after each teleport, unfortunately that requires caster levels to pull off (or umpty-tillion levels of the House mumble mumble prestige class from Eberron).
    There's a tele-pouncer that's not Telflammar Shadowlord? Do tell.
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    Default Re: Twin Hooks?

    Yeah, the Synth Summoner Dimensional Assault pathfinder build.

    Other than that, you can kind of make a Sun School (feat) Dimension Slide (psionic power) punch teleporter, but it's kind of terrible even with Snap Kick.

    As a note, has the OP considered dipping Shiba Protector?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    There's a tele-pouncer that's not Telflammar Shadowlord? Do tell.
    He probably means Blade of Orien, from Dragonmarked. Full-attack teleportation at ECL 11, IIRC.

    Sun School feat does not rely on Snap Kick alone, you can get Planar Touchstone (oxyrynchus) for three attacks per teleport. It's also the fastest way to get attacks out of teleports.
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-10-10 at 07:07 AM.

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    lol, planar touchstone. Used for so many things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    My advice is to get the ability from the Scorpion Kama (MIC) on your swords. Also, since you seem to like stunning fist, check out Pharaoh's Fist from Sandstorm and get Ki Straps from MIC. There are plenty of decent feats for Stunning Fist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uhtred View Post
    Secrets of Sarlona says I can use the hook swords to disarm, which, combined with stunning fist/Pharoah's Fist/Weakening Touch/Stunning Master, combined with our party's Dwarven Warpike wielding reach-fighter, should combine to ruin some mooks' days. :) Fail your save and you and everyone around you are stunned and sickened. And your weapons are gone. Also, the angry Dwarf woman with the oversized pike is just waiting for her turn.
    Yep, already looking for ways to exploit Stunning Fist, which I like more and more. Just something about taking a feat a first level that, if I didn't, I'd have to wait until 12th level to get...Although we did rename Pharaoh's Fist as Sifu's Fist, since supposedly I learned it in an Asian-type monastery. One day I may build an Egyptsu-using Monk as a shout-out to "Mummies Alive!", but not this time. Less headache for the DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    It's better than it used to be. Used to be that you could hardly post a comment with the word monk in it without getting at least a dozen responses that distilled down to "Monks suck. Reroll if you can and suicide if you can't." Suicide in this case meaning either leave the group or play as wrecklessly as possible to deliberately get your monk killed.
    This was my initial plan, funnily enough. When the DM was forcing down my throat that I had to be a scripture-spouting habit-wearing spiritual advisor Friar Tuck-type Monk, I said something to the tune of "You forced my race on me. You forced my class on me. Now you're forcing a backstory on me, too? A backstory i have repeatedly told you i hate? Let me write my own backstory or you can count me out. I won't have fun if the character isn't actually mine in some way."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Not my fault that jiriku-Monk is one of the most awesome things I've ever read, and I'm not even the type who normally cares about homebrew of any kind. Heck, I wasn't even thinking about power levels when I posted it here, the OP said something about Cool FactorTM and I immediately thought "Dance With the Elements."
    It IS pretty cool, and I linked it to him when we were talking last night. He said he doesn't want to deal with homebrew his first time out, maybe as a more experienced DM he'd allow it. If he does, I want to be a Magitech Templar. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by only1doug View Post
    Even when the OP states that 85% of his build must be from core and the first 5 levels must be in a single class (and for him that class must be Monk).
    Yep. I would give my Monk's tricked out staff if I was able to take a Lion-Totem Barbarian dip. I can't imagine a Melee build without it, honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alienist View Post
    Given the same constraints, I'd simply take 20 levels of Monk.
    I might, but the Shintao Monk and Tattooed Monk look very, very fun. Even if it means I miss out on Quivering Palm, which I have explicit permission to refer to as the "Five-Finger Exploding Heart Technique" or the "Xena Pinch."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Yeah, the Synth Summoner Dimensional Assault pathfinder build.

    Other than that, you can kind of make a Sun School (feat) Dimension Slide (psionic power) punch teleporter, but it's kind of terrible even with Snap Kick.

    As a note, has the OP considered dipping Shiba Protector?
    No Pathfinder, no Psionics. Our new DM wants to have to flip between as few books as possible to keep track of our shenanigans. Sun School is definitely on my list of things to do, I liked the cut of its jib, but I don't think I qualify for it at 5th lvl. Also, yeah, saw Shiba Protector (Oh, Power Rangers Samurai...), but the feat requirements are too steep for me to be legitimately interested. :/
    ~Othar wanted me to know so that I would tell men that Othar the Storm-Rider had died well, and I had told him to keep a tight hold of his sword so that Othar the Storm-Rider would go to the feast hall in Valhalla where all warriors who die bravely go after death. These days, although I am old and feeble, I always wear a sword, so that when death comes I will go to that far hall where men like Othar wait for me. I look forward to meeting them.~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    It's better than it used to be. Used to be that you could hardly post a comment with the word monk in it without getting at least a dozen responses that distilled down to "Monks suck. Reroll if you can and suicide if you can't." Suicide in this case meaning either leave the group or play as wrecklessly as possible to deliberately get your monk killed.
    You think that's bad? How about the days when you couldn't even breathe the word "monk" without someone saying "PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS."

    Re: The OP, though, glad you finally laid the smackdown on your DM and got to have SOME sort of say about your character. It sucks that your DM is autobanning so much just because he's not that experienced, but hey, I mean, everyone's gotta start somewhere. I've only been DMing for three years, and there's still stuff I'm wary about, but I've learned to deal with it. Hopefully, after you guys play this campaign, he'll know a lot more and end up letting you design more than just your character's backstory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deth Muncher View Post
    Re: The OP, though, glad you finally laid the smackdown on your DM and got to have SOME sort of say about your character. It sucks that your DM is autobanning so much just because he's not that experienced, but hey, I mean, everyone's gotta start somewhere. I've only been DMing for three years, and there's still stuff I'm wary about, but I've learned to deal with it. Hopefully, after you guys play this campaign, he'll know a lot more and end up letting you design more than just your character's backstory.

    He's one of my best friends and a father of two tiny children, a man I respect infinitely in all that he does. But because he's a dad, he doesn't have the time and energy I have to devote to learning how to optimize, scouring setting-specific sourcebooks and obscure sourcebooks, and I can't expect him to be able to instantly know and understand every little thing I'm capable of digging up. The neutering was difficult to take at first, but every optimizer loves a challenge. And while I doubt very seriously that next campaign he'll let me build a half-dragon gestalt Warblade/Artificer with the Saint template, wielding a colossal-sized platinum Minotaur Greathammer, being able to pick more than my backstory will certainly be both refreshing and entertaining.
    ~Othar wanted me to know so that I would tell men that Othar the Storm-Rider had died well, and I had told him to keep a tight hold of his sword so that Othar the Storm-Rider would go to the feast hall in Valhalla where all warriors who die bravely go after death. These days, although I am old and feeble, I always wear a sword, so that when death comes I will go to that far hall where men like Othar wait for me. I look forward to meeting them.~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deth Muncher View Post
    You think that's bad? How about the days when you couldn't even breathe the word "monk" without someone saying "PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS."

    Re: The OP, though, glad you finally laid the smackdown on your DM and got to have SOME sort of say about your character. It sucks that your DM is autobanning so much just because he's not that experienced, but hey, I mean, everyone's gotta start somewhere. I've only been DMing for three years, and there's still stuff I'm wary about, but I've learned to deal with it. Hopefully, after you guys play this campaign, he'll know a lot more and end up letting you design more than just your character's backstory.
    The partially charged wand fiasco was at least a step in the right direction. People were trying to help make it work instead of just saying don't do it at all.

    The fact that partially charged wands and cc umd ranks works on everybody is the reason it was failure as a monk tactic. Spending all your resources to poorly mimic an artificer or wizard isn't really a way to save any class from failure.

    Mind you, I think the rabid monk hate got a bit out of hand to begin with. At a certain level of optimization the monk works just fine. The fact that that level is significantly below the preferred level of the majority of the people that discuss D&D in forums like this doesn't make it genuinely worthless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uhtred View Post
    He's one of my best friends and a father of two tiny children, a man I respect infinitely in all that he does. But because he's a dad, he doesn't have the time and energy I have to devote to learning how to optimize, scouring setting-specific sourcebooks and obscure sourcebooks, and I can't expect him to be able to instantly know and understand every little thing I'm capable of digging up. The neutering was difficult to take at first, but every optimizer loves a challenge. And while I doubt very seriously that next campaign he'll let me build a half-dragon gestalt Warblade/Artificer with the Saint template, wielding a colossal-sized platinum Minotaur Greathammer, being able to pick more than my backstory will certainly be both refreshing and entertaining.
    Oh come now, he certainly has time to learn the rules! Two children is no excuse! They sleep, right? For at least five hours out of the day? Why, in that time you could at least mostly absorb a splatbook! It's not like he needs to sleep or go work or anything!

    But really though, it's good to know there's no bad blood because of this.
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    ..thank you, Deth Muncher. My life is richer for being aware of this. And weirder. ("You destroyed my friends! I will have my vengeance! Face the fury of my pelvic thrusts!" "Oh yeah? LAZOR!")
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