How to hide that an item is magic?

[Duboris]

So I have an Apl 4 of players about to get a rather ridiculous wondrous item from high-ranking Authority for transit, and I desperately need to figure out how to make it pretty dam difficult to detect just what kind of magic is inside it... for level 4's, anyway.

They've got a Cleric that has Detect Magic, and a Wizard of course, both of whom are ridiculously curious when the idea of magic gets involved. Having them believe something that's in that box isn't magical in the least will probably make them less curious.

"But Dub, wouldn't something not magical, but still seriously important be just as, if not more curiosity-raising than a box with a magical item in it?" Normally, yes, but my group has yet to grasp the idea of something non-magical being useful. Hooray.

Regardless, I need a container that's not magical, to hold something along the levels of a
Dormant Sphere of annihilation

[Hirax]

Here you go

edit: to be clear, I was suggesting this as a means to make the container seem non-magical. You don't see the auras of items that are inside extradimensional spaces such as bags of holding or mage's mansions, so this hides the sphere, and make the person carrying it indistinguishable from anyone else that's carrying around a backpack, bag, pouch, etc.

[ericgrau]

Says it doesn't work on artifacts. However this particular artifact is actually a hole in the continuity of the multiverse, so it may not be magical at all. Probably no need to hide it.

The talisman of the sphere OTOH is another story. That thing is booming with magical mojo. But all you need is a thin sheet of lead to block detect magic, scrying and most divination spells.

[Duboris]

So what I'm getting from this, is a lead-lined 2 cubic foot box made of adamantium, with 2 superior locks (DC 30) also made of adamantium?

[olentu]

So what I'm getting from this, is a lead-lined 2 cubic foot box made of adamantium, with 2 superior locks (DC 30) also made of adamantium?

Eh, they might just steal the box for all the adamantium.

[Sith_Happens]

So what I'm getting from this, is a lead-lined 2 cubic foot box made of adamantium, with 2 superior locks (DC 30) also made of adamantium?

Make them amazing locks (DC 40), and have more than two of them so it takes more than one Knock to open the box.

Actually, is there any way to flat-out beat a Knock spell?

[olentu]

Make them amazing locks (DC 40), and have more than two of them so it takes more than one Knock to open the box.

Actually, is there any way to flat-out beat a Knock spell?

A tiny portcullis.

[Jeff the Green]

Dip it in molten lead, then decorate somehow.

[Duboris]

The Wizard isn't going to take knock, and the circumstances shortly after they get a hold of it isn't going to give them enough time to re-arrange his spells for it.

I'll put 3 locks on it, and have a contingency for when they may possibly get through the first 2, namely an arrow whizzing by their face. They'll get to meet 1 of the 4 main generals that way. Until then, she'll just be watching them.

Other than that, 1 Adamantium Box, 3 Amazing Adamantium Locks, and a whole lot of "If you open this, you'll be breaking the law, and trust us, we'll know if you did."

Mainly because it's going to completely unmake everything in a 180 foot radius.

[nedz]

I'm not sure how you make a SoA dormant, it should just eat the box at the slightest movement.

The RAW way of doing this would be ...

You are led to a small well fortified building, well away from the edge of town. After the many locks are removed and the door opened the Archmage hands you a small talisman.
"Here you'll need this. Just remember we need it moving secretly, and that means keeping it well away from our town, well any town frankly, and any thing too for that matter"
"We ask the Archmage ..."
Erm, the Archmage and the Guards are running away at full speed.

[BowStreetRunner]

Put a semi-obvious false bottom on the box. On top you have the dormant sphere. In the bottom some ridiculously complex-looking object (looks like a combination sextant/astrolabe/compass) with a ton of protective spells on it, plus a false aura and some random enchantments.

The PCs will assume the sphere is a 'decoy' and the real item of value is the one in the bottom.

[ericgrau]

You should focus on hiding the box rather than making it strong. Once it's found anybody can destroy it in a few minutes. If all else fails hit the adamantine box with an adamantine weapon repeatedly, no need to even get fancy.

Both the inside and outside of the box should have lead so it can't be divined. Then cast spells to protect in from divination anyway, since lead doesn't stop everything. Even then the best divinations can get through. So most importantly don't tell anyone the box nor artifact exists and they won't cast the divinations in the first place. Alternatively make it a creature somehow so you can mind blank it, but beware of it rebelling. Finally hide it with illusions so nobody stumbles upon it accidentally. If they aren't interacting with it (likely if they aren't looking for it) then they don't get a save.

But what you can do for protection stick an alarm spell and/or etc. on it and use the protection to buy you enough time to teleport in. So at least 3 locks, enough hp & hardness to handle a couple adamantine swings, etc.

[GolemsVoice]

BowStreetRunner has it right, I'd say. Almost all kinds of locks and traps and what-have-yous can be disarmed or opened if you're creative, or willing to spend a lot of time whacking things with adamantite weapons. But if you mislead them completely, they won't even try.

[2xMachina]

You should focus on hiding the box rather than making it strong. Once it's found anybody can destroy it in a few minutes. If all else fails hit the adamantine box with an adamantine weapon repeatedly, no need to even get fancy.

Both the inside and outside of the box should have lead so it can't be divined. Then cast spells to protect in from divination anyway, since lead doesn't stop everything. Even then the best divinations can get through. So most importantly don't tell anyone the box nor artifact exists and they won't cast the divinations in the first place. Alternatively make it a creature somehow so you can mind blank it, but beware of it rebelling. Finally hide it with illusions so nobody stumbles upon it accidentally. If they aren't interacting with it (likely if they aren't looking for it) then they don't get a save.

But what you can do for protection stick an alarm spell and/or etc. on it and use the protection to buy you enough time to teleport in. So at least 3 locks, enough hp & hardness to handle a couple adamantine swings, etc.

Please don't do this. This will end badly for everyone. It'll probably go on and devour the world.

[Deophaun]

Here's what I'd do.

Your dormant sphere of annihilation is actually being kept in a leomund's secret chest. What the party is asked to transport is the tiny replica chest. You may throw additional disguises/security measures upon this as necessary.

[Flickerdart]

The Wizard isn't going to take knock, and the circumstances shortly after they get a hold of it isn't going to give them enough time to re-arrange his spells for it.

I'll put 3 locks on it, and have a contingency for when they may possibly get through the first 2, namely an arrow whizzing by their face. They'll get to meet 1 of the 4 main generals that way. Until then, she'll just be watching them.

Other than that, 1 Adamantium Box, 3 Amazing Adamantium Locks, and a whole lot of "If you open this, you'll be breaking the law, and trust us, we'll know if you did."

Mainly because it's going to completely unmake everything in a 180 foot radius.

Who casts Knock from slots? You put it on a scroll or ten, for a rainy day.

[BowStreetRunner]

And of course, there is no reason a self-respecting paranoid owner of a dormant sphere of annihilation wouldn't be entirely within his rights to employ a combination of these tactics.

Anyone know of any rules for a Puzzle Box in D&D and whether that would thwart a Knock spell?

Maybe create a Secret Chest that is actually a Puzzle Box. While the players transport the miniature, if they happen to get their hands on the actual box, inside is the sphere sitting above a decoy false bottom and a complex device with Magic Aura and a number of protective enchantments on it. The miniature is itself contained in a larger box that is made out of adamantine, lined with lead and secured with a pair of Amazing locks.

[PinkysBrain]

Dip it in molten lead, then decorate somehow.

Only stops scrying unless you houserule it ... and if you houserule it you're going to have to tell the players, so yeah.

Sequester it and put it inside an item which is valuable for level 4 characters so they won't want to break it. They can't break through a sequester to detect it's magic and they would have to touch it to figure out it was actually sequestered.

PS. actually if you hide it in a valuable object they won't want to break even magic aura is enough, dispelling will do nothing without LoS.

[Flickerdart]

Only stops scrying unless you houserule it ... and if you houserule it you're going to have to tell the players, so yeah.

You don't care about scrying. Scrying only works on creatures.

[Jeff the Green]

Only stops scrying unless you houserule it ... and if you houserule it you're going to have to tell the players, so yeah.

it will also stop detect magic, which is the point.

[ericgrau]

And every detect. And locate object.

I just noticed this line on discern location:

To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.

So lead is seeming pretty good.

I can't see any direct core divinations left so that leaves legend lore. Meaning you must hide or remove any detailed information about the sphere that's out there.

[Duboris]

Alright, so, point at hand is this.


The team has 0 Adamantium weapons, and at the moment, barely have anything that's considered +3, and they're not even made of cold iron.

Their highest potential damage is 29, even with a critical. None of them have the sleight of hand capable of opening 1 amazing lock, let alone 3.

The box is lined on the inside with lead, stopping detect magic, detect alignment, or detecting anything. The cleric does not have scrying, and honestly probably doesn't even know what that is.

The Authority at hand is going to be very specific about not opening it, going so far as to put it down the table very carelessly, scaring the **** out of his nearby sergeant, who replies with "****! Don't do that! You'll kill us both if you keep screwing around like that!"

Letting them sort of get the gist of what's inside it, and how potentially dangerous it is.

The group isn't aware that the box is actually supposed to be stolen, as nothing says "Our hideout was here" like a nice, 360 diameter orb of nothing.

Upon opening the box, whoever does so, will trigger a gate spell, and the activation of the sphere into it's raw, destructive form. The gate will be cast on the sphere itself, causing it's second effect, which is just downright evil on my part, but hey, the law enforcement isn't exactly above killing people that kill people frequently.

At the end of the quest they'll be outnumbered, and one of the higher-ranking members will walk up, take the container, and then detain them in a ****ty prison, which they need to escape from before they manage to finally crack open that case and get unmade.

Sounds like this is gonna go well.

Worst case scenario, they surprise me, open up all of the locks, flick it open through sheer ridiculousness and die without question.

[ericgrau]

If they're real adventurers then opening precisely the thing that they absolutely must not open is the first thing they'll do.

Kudos for making it not merely a TPK, but a ressurection proof TPK.

[Duboris]

There's going to be a **** ton of foreshadowing going on that will blatantly tell them that whatever's inside this box is potentially one of the most destructive things known to man.

[ericgrau]

@^ Standard adventurer: "Sweeeeeet"

But seriously you probably know better how your players react.

[Belril Duskwalk]

There's going to be a **** ton of foreshadowing going on that will blatantly tell them that whatever's inside this box is potentially one of the most destructive things known to man.

You say that like it should stop the adventurers. Or even discourage them.
Seriously though, a lead-lined adamant chest that is triple locked with absurdly difficult locks is the next best thing to impossible to get into given the party you describe. Go forth, and fear no PCs.

[Duboris]

@^ Standard adventurer: "Sweeeeeet"

But seriously you probably know better how your players react.

No, they're seriously going to try everything they can. I'm being friendly by making it not open up when struck hard, otherwise I can already see the barbarian power attacking it...

[hoverfrog]

Do the opposite and put obvious magical wards on it that are clearly illusions designed to obscure any magic on the box.

Alternatively have the box radiate anti-magic. Nobody will be able to detect what kind of magic that is.

[The Random NPC]

Alternatively have the box radiate anti-magic. Nobody will be able to detect what kind of magic that is.

Anti-magic is Abjuration.

[Jack_Simth]

Make them amazing locks (DC 40), and have more than two of them so it takes more than one Knock to open the box.

Actually, is there any way to flat-out beat a Knock spell?

Yes. A couple of ways. Knock has a size limit... although that's not overly useful here. Another way is spring-loaded, auto-locking locks. If the key isn't in them, they immediately re-lock themselves. Not really all that hard to do, even; there's a couple doors where I work that are like that. Put four of those on the chest, and your rogue will run out of hands for holding picks in place.