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    Default Haste and Natural Attacks?

    How do they interact? Say your a Totemist with a slew of natural attacks and your full attack routine has no weapons (not even unarmed), would such a character benefit from Haste or Haste-like effects? If so how?
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    I believe you get a single extra attack. So you would get to pick which natural weapon to use, but it would only be one natural weapon and only one extra attack per turn.

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Arguably, none of the character's natural weapons fit the description of "weapon they are holding", so no extra attacks at all.

    I do have to wonder why the character isn't carrying any weapons at all, in that case. Surely a double weapon would be suitable, as you could switch out which hand is currently holding it as a free action?
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Well you assume the character doesn't have a set of natural weapons that are just "better." for example a dragon could easily Haste himself to make his full attack routine THAT much more frightening.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Ing View Post
    Well you assume the character doesn't have a set of natural weapons that are just "better." for example a dragon could easily Haste himself to make his full attack routine THAT much more frightening.
    Except, as mentioned, I don't think that'll actually work, since e.g. claws aren't "held" in any sense. Sure, a dragon who manages to grab a weapon would be able to do it, but most of the time that means giving up one of the natural weapon attacks in order to get iteratives. (Which is why I suggested a double weapon, like a quarterstaff; you can change from one- to two-handed as a free action, so with two free actions you can shift it to another hand to use your claw/slam/whatever.)
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Arguably, none of the character's natural weapons fit the description of "weapon they are holding", so no extra attacks at all.

    I do have to wonder why the character isn't carrying any weapons at all, in that case. Surely a double weapon would be suitable, as you could switch out which hand is currently holding it as a free action?
    And by that logic, unarmed striker builds don't benefit from Haste, yes?

    For what its worth, the PF version changes it to be applicable to any natural attacks or manufactured weapons.
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2012-10-08 at 08:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    And by that logic, unarmed striker builds don't benefit from Haste, yes?
    Hmm, not sure. Instinctively I'd go for "iteratives = haste-friendly" (because that is one of the two most logical interpretations I can think of*), but that's not exactly what the spell says.

    Maybe chalk another one up to WotC's lousy editing?

    *The other logical interpretation would be Tvtyrant's: haste gives you one extra attack, period, divided as you see fit. In that case, of course, the "with a weapon he is holding" clause serves no actual function, which is not likely to be RAW.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    I can answer why the character in question does not have any weapons nor use unarmed. He's a germaphobe. Ya, I make weird character concepts.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    I can answer why the character in question does not have any weapons nor use unarmed. He's a germaphobe. Ya, I make weird character concepts.
    That is horribly true to life in its bizarre inconsistency. Well played.

    However, suffice it to say that being unable to benefit from haste is, if anything, entirely appropriate to the concept; ever lived with someone with OCD?
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    I can answer why the character in question does not have any weapons nor use unarmed. He's a germaphobe. Ya, I make weird character concepts.
    So you character won't hold a weapon, but they have no problem digging their claws into another living being?(or whatever their natural attack is, but you get the idea.)

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
    So you character won't hold a weapon, but they have no problem digging their claws into another living being?(or whatever their natural attack is, but you get the idea.)
    Well its not 'his' claws. Its the bound incarnum that's digging in. So he never actually comes in contact. Just unbind the essentia, boom, the 'contaminated' limbs disappear. Rebinding produces fresh clean ones. It is a fine line and mainly not supposed to make a lot of sense to a rational person, but most people with a phobia are less than rational when it comes to that phobia.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Do bound incarnums count as held weapons? Bound and held are kind of synonyms, right?

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    Well its not 'his' claws. Its the bound incarnum that's digging in. So he never actually comes in contact. Just unbind the essentia, boom, the 'contaminated' limbs disappear. Rebinding produces fresh clean ones. It is a fine line and mainly not supposed to make a lot of sense to a rational person, but most people with a phobia are less than rational when it comes to that phobia.
    Spatter? Eviscerating a foe is messy business. I've seen Kill Bill enough to know that that stuff sprays everywhere when you start hacking into people.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    I am pretty sure that natural weapons (bite,claws etc) get no iterative attacks from BAB and for that reason they also don't receive extra attacks from haste, I must have read something like that somewhere.

    This thread probably helps too.

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Pretty sure if you're using a natural attack as your 'primary' weapon (not as a secondary natural attack) it gets iteratives normally, and would benefit from haste if haste didn't have that specific 'weapon you are holding' line.

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    would benefit from haste if haste didn't have that specific 'weapon you are holding' line.
    Granted, that seems right now that I think about it but

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Pretty sure if you're using a natural attack as your 'primary' weapon (not as a secondary natural attack) it gets iteratives normally
    nedz mentioned in that older thread that in MM and SRD natural attacks get no iteratives. Even though I can't access any of these two right now, no one seemed to object...

    EDIT: just check rules compendium p.100 actually.
    Last edited by Eldebryn; 2012-10-09 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Spatter? Eviscerating a foe is messy business. I've seen Kill Bill enough to know that that stuff sprays everywhere when you start hacking into people.
    The concept's not perfect alright? When he can afford it, he will obtain a meticulously cleaned Decanter of Endless Water to house down after every fight. Or a At-Will Prestidigitation item.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    The concept's not perfect alright? When he can afford it, he will obtain a meticulously cleaned Decanter of Endless Water to house down after every fight. Or a At-Will Prestidigitation item.
    Or wear a butcher's apron. That works just fine.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    "Holding" isn't well-defined in game (outside of certain bags and spells). If you view it more like "wielding," like I do, then Tvtyrant's interpretation is correct. If you take the strict view of holding as literally carrying an object, then natural attacks and unarmed strikes don't count for the purposes of Haste.
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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Okay. What if he holds his own wrist and then uses the claw while he's holding his wrist? Is it held then?

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    Default Re: Haste and Natural Attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    Okay. What if he holds his own wrist and then uses the claw while he's holding his wrist? Is it held then?

    Like so,
    Well played. It's like hugging your friends to go faster. To nitpick, you'd have to hold the natural weapon specifically, not just the wrist. Aside from poorly worded spell descriptions devolving into silliness, this character doesn't want to touch the blood-soaked incarnum claws.
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