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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default creating a vampire spawn.

    let's say a character gets slain by a vampire and gets turned into a vampire spawn.

    how do you handle the abilities?

    the abilities given for a vampire spawn are as follows:

    Str 16, Dex 14, Con Ř, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14


    are you supposed to just go with that? or do you add the vampire template stats from whatever you character had before?

    Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4 (and, of course, drop the Con to 0).

    if that's the case, then the generic vampire spawn is taking for granted that the living character started out with stats of:

    Str: 10
    Dex: 10
    Con: (whatever)
    Int:11
    Wis: 11
    Cha: 10

    which seems kind of... well... generic.

    someone help me out here. i'm confused. thanks!

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    By RAW, I'm pretty sure a vampire spawn always has those stats, no matter what its stats were in life. You may change the rules if you wish though. It is a bit unclear.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    By RAW, I'm pretty sure a vampire spawn always has those stats, no matter what its stats were in life. You may change the rules if you wish though. It is a bit unclear.
    a vampire spawn becomes a regular ol' vampire after the master is slain, correct?

    if that (and the above assessment of the rules) is correct, would i then revert back to the character's original scores and then add the vampire stats?

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by robertbevan View Post
    a vampire spawn becomes a regular ol' vampire after the master is slain, correct?
    No. A vampire spawn is a vampire spawn for life (or unlife, as it were).
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
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    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    No. A vampire spawn is a vampire spawn for life (or unlife, as it were).
    oh right... i just saw what was confusing me when i looked a little harder. thanks.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anxe View Post
    By RAW, I'm pretty sure a vampire spawn always has those stats, no matter what its stats were in life. You may change the rules if you wish though. It is a bit unclear.
    There's nothing unclear about this. Vampire Spawn is not a template. They have the listed stats and nothing else. They are not in any way based on the previous creature's stats. They lose all of the previous creature's class levels and other abilities, because they aren't real Vampires.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2012-10-08 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    There's nothing unclear about this. Vampire Spawn is not a template. They have the listed stats and nothing else. They are not in any way based on the previous creature's stats. They lose all of the previous creature's class levels and other abilities, because they aren't real Vampires.
    Confusion can reasonably arise because the stat block for Vampire Spawn shows its ability scores based on the Standard array; however, it's also possible to use a different stat array (i.e., Non-elite array) and get noticeably different results, per the usual rules on improving monsters. I don't think there's any particular connection between the Spawn's ability score array and the array of the creature it was made from, which is the key point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Actually, I think that the second point that OP brought up is true. When your fighter, let's say, becomes a Spawn, he retains no memories, nor skills, that he previously had. He does, however, retain his ability scores, as well as some other abilities that he might have had (such as claw attacks if he had naturally possessed them). You simply add the other abilities onto what he has left over.

    On a related note, there is a prestige class (I think that it's in Savage Species) that allows Undead Spawn to recall their former lives. The example given is a mage that was turned into a Shadow and was freed from its master's control, but other candidates would also include Wights and even Vampire Spawn.

    Edit: Monstrous races (well, really all races) almost always have the Standard Array for their base ability scores, with half of them being 10's and the other half being 11's, because the average stats rolled for people are 10.5's, so the stat block assumes that they are average people, and not unique beings, such as PCs or powerful NPCs. Also, races never receive an odd-numbered amount of points for their ability score bonuses, so the odd-numbered ones are the 11's, with the even ones being 10's. Hope that clears up confusion for the ability scores, at least.
    Last edited by karkus; 2012-10-08 at 10:45 PM.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkus View Post
    Actually, I think that the second point that OP brought up is true. When your fighter, let's say, becomes a Spawn, he retains no memories, nor skills, that he previously had. He does, however, retain his ability scores, as well as some other abilities that he might have had (such as claw attacks if he had naturally possessed them). You simply add the other abilities onto what he has left over.
    [citation needed]

    The text on creating spawn is perfectly clear. "A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial." No "retains ability scores", no "retains natural attacks". If a vampire drains something to death, it becomes a vampire spawn. What's a vampire spawn? See the stat block below. It's an entirely new creature, not a template.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The text on creating spawn is perfectly clear. "A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial." No "retains ability scores", no "retains natural attacks". If a vampire drains something to death, it becomes a vampire spawn. What's a vampire spawn? See the stat block below. It's an entirely new creature, not a template.
    Crap on a stick. I think you may be right... However, I do believe that in certain cases, you do retain abilities. By which I mean, if the person possessed wings, then they should probably also possess wings. Just a thought, though, because I think that the monster listed is just a general thing for Humanoids, and was not given with additional information, because it cannot commonly be a PC race.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkus View Post
    Crap on a stick. I think you may be right... However, I do believe that in certain cases, you do retain abilities. By which I mean, if the person possessed wings, then they should probably also possess wings. Just a thought, though, because I think that the monster listed is just a general thing for Humanoids, and was not given with additional information, because it cannot commonly be a PC race.
    Unfortunately, if it was intended to be generalized it should have been presented in template form, which would have been perfectly suitable. It wasn't, so this is what we've got, and no abilities are retained; Flickerdart's essential point (that it is, for all practical purposes, a new creature) is correct as far as I can tell.

    I don't really like the state of RAW in this case, but them's the breaks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Does this mean that by RAW, an Emancipated Spawn is stuck with the Spawn's ability scores? The class doesn't say anything about restoring ability scores.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    The RAW in this case is dumb. Use RAI instead. So either use the character's regular scores or create a spawn template and apply it by deriving the abilities the spawn monster gets in the usual way.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    I don't think being turned into a Vampire Spawn is dumb. It was suppose to be a deterrent. The whole reason they where created by the game designers was to stop players from going, OH a Vampire I let him bite me to get vampire powers. It's the same reason that they get controlled by their sire.
    Last edited by Kyberwulf; 2012-10-09 at 04:11 AM.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    It was suppose to be a deterrent. The whole reason they where created by the game designers was to stop players from going, OH a Vampire I let him bite me to get vampire powers.
    I don't buy into this line of reasoning because it automagically disappears as soon as you hit 5th level.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Yeah, but then you are under the control of the Vampire that sired you. No saving throw. Just a NPC.

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    If the monster class is any indication, the ability score bonuses are +4 STR, +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 WIS, and +4 CHA.
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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    thank you all. i now feel like i have a complete understanding of how this works, and so i can make an informed decision on how i want to break the rules. i think i'm going to do away with 'vampire spawn' entirely. for the purposes of my story, the distinction of vampire and vampire spawn is insignificant enough to ignore.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: creating a vampire spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Yeah, but then you are under the control of the Vampire that sired you. No saving throw. Just a NPC.
    Yes, that IS a good deterrent, which is why I didn't mention anything against it.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    "What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

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