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Thread: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
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2012-11-14, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
That would be good to me. Possibly make lower level spells scale not in power, but in choice.
So like at level 5 my fireball is just a ball of fire. At level 15 I can collapse it for 10 feet and then expand it again. Or at level 20 I can make it bend over walls.
So its a choice of damage over mastery.
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2012-11-14, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
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2012-11-14, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I like the ideas of the monk and druid. They don't feel like they should be core classes, but I like the concepts. In my opinion we could just have the "big four" as core, then have the various other things show up in supplements.
I've never liked Psionics, though. What's the point?
Yeah, reading that did not do wonders for my opinion of those guys.Jude P.
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2012-11-14, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I like the ideas of the monk and druid. They don't feel like they should be core classes, but I like the concepts. In my opinion we could just have the "big four" as core, then have the various other things show up in supplements.
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2012-11-14, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I like that a lot. If thats the case, then they will have smaller books (or please e-books...) and can sell for less then the hardcover, which can help penetrate the market and get a bigger market share and then make up for the loss by selling the modules.
Also if they are mostly done with the "core" then they have a lot of time to just work on what we have seen, a year and half (or more) to work on the classes we have gotten, the magic system, magic items, isn't to bad. I agree that they need to do more then use expertise dice for everything. But if they put aside year+ for that, then I am a bit more hopeful that they can do a good job on it.
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2012-11-14, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I like that a lot. If thats the case, then they will have smaller books (or please e-books...) and can sell for less then the hardcover, which can help penetrate the market and get a bigger market share and then make up for the loss by selling the modules.
I'm really kind of hoping we see a core that's big enough to run a complete game with, but small enough that it could sell on it's own as a ~$20-30 standalone book, or alternatively be included at the beginning of every module, so that essentially, no matter which ~$50-60 module you picked up (say, D&D Tactics, D&D Oriental Adventures, D&D Desert Delves, D&D Ravenloft etc etc) you would have a complete game sitting in front of you.
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2012-11-14, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
That's an interesting idea.
On the one hand, I agree that having several hundreds of powers/spells/maneuvers don't add a lot of value to a PHB1, and that putting eleven classes in there (or even eight) is probably too much.
On the other hand, I find that certain sections are still missing or incomplete, in particular those related to exploration and social interaction (which, as WOTC claims, are two of the three "pillars" of D&D). For example, I want the book to contain a list of common wall types and the DC to climb them; this is more important than an optional table of what may go wrong if you mix potions.
Common PC actions need a standard resolution mechanic and DC; I'm not paying WOTC to let them say "well, we trust the DM will come up with something".Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-11-14, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2012-11-14, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
On the one hand, I agree that having several hundreds of powers/spells/maneuvers don't add a lot of value to a PHB1, and that putting eleven classes in there (or even eight) is probably too much.
On the other hand, I find that certain sections are still missing or incomplete, in particular those related to exploration and social interaction (which, as WOTC claims, are two of the three "pillars" of D&D). For example, I want the book to contain a list of common wall types and the DC to climb them; this is more important than an optional table of what may go wrong if you mix potions.
Common PC actions need a standard resolution mechanic and DC; I'm not paying WOTC to let them say "well, we trust the DM will come up with something".
As for our overall progress, our next two big areas are multiclassing and high-level play. With those two areas in place, we'll move on to several tasks:
Refine the key systems and content of the game. Once something is finished, we'll continue to polish it based on feedback as described above.
Expand content to cover more classes and races, ranging from core D&D elements such as the paladin, half-orc, and cavalier to world-specific stuff such as draconians, warforged, and bladesingers.
Our spell survey was very useful for determining our design direction, so we'll launch something similar for prestige classes and feats.
Review the entire system to lock down the core of the game, which is the starting point and the simplest expression of D&D Next. This step mainly consists of cutting out as much stuff as possible—rules and character options—to create a true core of D&D.
With the core in place, we can either complete or kick off the design of a number of rules modules, such as alternative magic systems, tactical combat, mass battles, skirmish battles, planar travel, gritty wounds, and realm management. If it was in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, it's something that we're likely to cover with a rules module.
The thing about holdovers is that they really ought to be dropped at some point. In this specific circumstance, crossbows are marginally better, but for a character who consistently uses a ranged weapon they're worse.
Now admittedly, the playtest has pretty much dropped all the nuance between a cross bow and a regular bow, but I would rather see them bring back the nuance rather than just make crossbows no different from a regular bow.
So speaking of reading things into what WotC says, what do the tea leaves say about the fact that not only is WotC republishing an old AD&D adventure set, they're adding new material to it?
http://wizards.com/DnD/Product.aspx?...ndacc/a-series
Added to the collection is an all-new fifth adventure -- A0: Danger at Darkshelf Quarry -- that you can use to kick off an AD&D campaign that pits a group of adventurers against the evil Slave Lords! Module A0, designed for levels 1-3, sets the stage for events that unfold throughout the remainder of the "A" series.Last edited by 1337 b4k4; 2012-11-14 at 11:23 AM.
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2012-11-14, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
To be fair, the idea of intentionally imbalancing parts of a game to reward users for solving the puzzle is a legitimate game design strategy, which has worked very well for MTG over the years.
However, that's not to say that they did it intentionally, and if they did do it intentionally, then they messed up pretty hard. Intentional imbalance is only good for competitive games, where you're trying to beat the other players, or single-player games, where you're trying to beat a computer or otherwise set challenge.
In a co-operative game, it just leads to...well, all the issues that people have had with inferior fighters and rogues and party drama over how one character is more optimized, and thus vastly more powerful, than all the other characters.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-11-14, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
This isn't old D&D. This is D&D Next, a brand new edition. What you said was true in AD&D, but no longer applies here. Light crossbow and shortbow are in the same category of weapons. Same for heavy crossbow and longbow. They take longer to reload in return for a larger damage die, which stops being relevant on higher levels even if you only shoot it once - and of course, nothing should stop me from making a ranged fighter, rogue or ranger who uses a crossbow.
This is more or less the same as it was in 3rd edition, of course. There, crossbow was more or less useful only to low-level wizards so they have something to do after exhausting their spells. In D&D Next though, this particular usage is going away, what with the introduction of at-will and signature spells.Last edited by Morty; 2012-11-14 at 11:57 AM.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2012-11-14, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
It's hard to handle a crossbow in a game with armor class and hit points. Crossbows had two advantages: they were easier to master than a long bow, and they (when made and fired properly) were effective against chain and most plate armor.
D&D does not make provision for one weapon being easier than another to master (you are proficient or not, and you become proficient by spending a weapon proficiency slot/feat/etc) and it generally does not have special modifiers for one weapon being used against one armor (2nd did have this, but it was an optional system.)
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2012-11-14, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
Note that M:TG tournaments have periodic "reset buttons" in terms of what's allowed, so if they spend an expansion focusing on cheap big monsters, those cheap big monsters are not always in play. You discover the metagame, find neat combos, then eventually move on because your combos just don't work anymore because the cards aren't allowed.
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2012-11-14, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
This isn't old D&D. This is D&D Next, a brand new edition. What you said was true in AD&D, but no longer applies here. Light crossbow and shortbow are in the same category of weapons. Same for heavy crossbow and longbow. They take longer to reload in return for a larger damage die, which stops being relevant on higher levels even if you only shoot it once - and of course, nothing should stop me from making a ranged fighter, rogue or ranger who uses a crossbow.
Of course, nothing is stopping you from making a ranged fighter, rouge or ranger who uses a crossbow. You'll just be dealing less damage with the rules as written currently. Sort of like if you decided you wanted to be a fighter who only used daggers.
Ultimately, if the character concept is sacrosanct, then really they should reach way back into history and make all weapons do the same damage. Then your choice of weapon is pure 100% character concept. The reason variable weapon damage was introduced was because Gygax found that with all weapons doing the same damage, all players only ever bought the cheapest weapon, which was the iron spike.
Personally, I think if they want to keep the odd loading rules, they should either increase the crossbow range again and either bump the damage die or make regular shots with a crossbow be at an advantage. So then your choice for a crossbow is you can be slow but reliable with your damage, or fast but unreliable.
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2012-11-14, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
That's unfortunately true. Still, I think something could be done with it.
Yeah, sorry about getting snippy. But I think a lot of problems with D&D 3e and one of the reasons D&D Next is unimpressive to many people is that they keep things from old editions without thinking of how it fits the new paradigm.
Of course, nothing is stopping you from making a ranged fighter, rouge or ranger who uses a crossbow. You'll just be dealing less damage with the rules as written currently. Sort of like if you decided you wanted to be a fighter who only used daggers.
Ultimately, if the character concept is sacrosanct, then really they should reach way back into history and make all weapons do the same damage. Then your choice of weapon is pure 100% character concept. The reason variable weapon damage was introduced was because Gygax found that with all weapons doing the same damage, all players only ever bought the cheapest weapon, which was the iron spike.
Personally, I think if they want to keep the odd loading rules, they should either increase the crossbow range again and either bump the damage die or make regular shots with a crossbow be at an advantage. So then your choice for a crossbow is you can be slow but reliable with your damage, or fast but unreliable.My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2012-11-14, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
Yeah, sorry about getting snippy. But I think a lot of problems with D&D 3e and one of the reasons D&D Next is unimpressive to many people is that they keep things from old editions without thinking of how it fits the new paradigm.
When it comes down to it, differently sized dice aren't the best way of differentiating weapons. But it's too much of a part of D&D to ever go away.
Honestly, if we're talking real world, every (personal) weapon can do serious (or mortal) damage to an individual, it's more of a question of how likely that serious damage is to occur. That is, the knife isn't less deadly than the sword because when it cuts your artery it's a smaller blade, it's less deadly because you're less likely to be hit with, and when you are hit, to be hit in an artery by a knife.
Ideally you would model this with all weapons doing the same damage (or damage range) but provide different modifiers to your to-hit rolls. Obviously with a d20 to hit and combined with bounded accuracy, this would get problematic as I don't think the range of modifiers is granular enough.
Anyone with a fancy dice program want to look at how the regular damage output for a fighter using a dagger (1d4), short sword (1d6), bastard sword (1d8), long sword (1d10) and great sword (1d12) in the play test (over say, 50 combat rounds) compares with using the same weapons all doing say 1d6 or 1d8 damage and providing a -2, -1, 0, +1 and +2 to hit modifier respectively?
Of course the question is which is less fun, hitting less often or doing less damage?
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2012-11-14, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
The guy from Kung Fu Hustle was not lawful!
Kung Fu Panda wasn't lawful!
Jackie Chan isn't lawful in every role.
The monk using expertise could be done away with. Expand Ki to fill that role, you burn Ki to use special maneuvers, (flurry of blows, slow fall, moving fast) & to gain monk related buffs (piercing strikes, slashing strikes, temporary hp, temporary AC or to hit bonuses. etc). Give them a large-ish about of Ki like (Wis Bonus+Monk level) & have it refresh every encounter.
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2012-11-14, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I have just such a fancy dice program. I'll run some simulations when I get home and post the results.
Of course the question is which is less fun, hitting less often or doing less damage?
It's also better from a basic math perspective, due to the ability to split attacks and the possibility of overkill. If you're facing a dozen goblins with 10 HP each, it's much better to hit 90% of the time for an average of 10 damage than to hit 50% of the time for an average of 20 damage, because all that extra damage doesn't help you kill the goblins any faster and you can remove them faster with more frequent hits. Less frequent hits with higher damage help with the larger monsters since the damage isn't overkill, but less frequent hits gives the monster more rounds to pound on the PCs, which is a problem as well.
Another idea for the monk would be to give it expertise dice per round and ki points per encounter, and ki points just maximize expertise dice. They would have fewer and smaller dice than the fighter, but they'd have more reliability with their dice, which fits with the "mastery of mind and body" thing.Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2012-11-14 at 02:40 PM.
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2012-11-14, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I don't have a fancy dice program, but I do have excel:
{table=head]Level 1|Level 2|Level 3|Level 4|Level 5|Level 6|Level 7|Level 8|Level 9|Level 10
0.4| 0.3| 0.2| -0.1| -0.1| -0.1| -0.3| -0.4| -0.4| -1.2
0.2| 0.2| 0.1| 0| -0.1| -0.1| -0.1| -0.2| -0.2| -0.6
0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0
-0.2| -0.1| -0.1| 0| 0.1| 0.1| 0.1| 0.2| 0.2| 0.6
-0.4| -0.3| -0.2| 0.1| 0.2| 0.2| 0.2| 0.4| 0.4| 1.2[/table]
This is a comparison of the damage done with a dagger/short sword/long sword/bastard sword/great sword using the -2/-1/0/+1/+2 attack bonus model, all using 1d8 damage, compared to the normal model of flat attack bonuses and variable damage die.
As you can see, it ends up being mostly similar. At lower levels, large weapons aren't quite as strong as they are now, while smaller weapons are better. Around level 4-5, larger weapons start to out-pace smaller weapons mostly due to expertise bonuses. Without expertise bonuses, the variable damage dice weapon out-perform the variable attack bonus weapons even at higher levels.
Note that this doesn't take critical hits into account.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-11-14, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
I can't really get myself to care for the monk. Because it is... the monk! That thing that happens to show up again and again and each time is not worth aknowleding it's existance. When I think of the classes of D&D, I usually forgett monks because they don't have any presence in any of the D&D settings.
If the monk in 5th Edition turns out to be garbage, I just don't care. It's a wasted 3 pages of the PHB anyway, so whatever they are doing with it: I just don't care.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2012-11-14, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
Hm, now that I think about it, what if Expertise Dice used the same size of dice as your weapon? So, if you're using a longsword, you get a 1d8, greatsword you get 1d12. Then, added fighter levels would only increase the number of expertise dice, rather than size, at levels 3/8/13/18. That would allow weapon dice to matter more at higher levels.
Of course, this would also need to be paired with making it so that non-weapon based maneuvers would need to stop using dice, since it doesn't really make much sense to be able to jump higher because you've got a bigger sword.
Perhaps some maneuvers could be listed as using your weapon's dice to deal their damage, and others use a static sized-dice, or one that scales with level, as they do now.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-11-14, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2012-11-14, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-11-14, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
They could take the 4e approach and combine die sizes with accuracy bonuses. Instead of -2/-1/0/+1/+2 or d4/d6/d8/d10/d12, they could do something like giving light/medium/heavy weapons a d4/d6/d8 damage die with a +1/0/-1 for accurate/average/inaccurate weapons. The greatsword might be a d8/+1 weapon because it's a big hefty weapon with a nice long blade, the dagger is a d4/-1 weapon because it's a smaller and lighter weapon with a short blade, the quarterstaff is d4/+1 weapon because it's long but light, and so on.
Not the most realistic solution, but it incorporates different die sizes, gives a nod to the 4e weapon system for those players who preferred it, and gives players who liked the 3e weapon system another axis of differentiation now that crit ranges and crit multipliers aren't in the base game.
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2012-11-14, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
That's once again lots of tiny modifers. While those work great in video games, they are usually poor choices in pnp as it just increases the amount of numbers to remember for very little difference that is actually felt.
I think early on in the development they talked a lot about everything that's in the game being significant enough to justify the additional paperwork. Which has become again a problem with many of the new maneuvers, that are a lot of dice rolling and calculations only to get a +2 to an attack roll.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2012-11-14, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
Just wondering, is 5th edition homebrew allowed? I ask because the lack of Necromancy in the playtest has me upset and as a result I easily could homebrew a necromancy-based arcane tradition and Necromantic specialty.....So...my main question is....is 5e homebrew illegal right now?
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Mine started at a dinner party in the BBEG's estate.
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2012-11-14, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
Only if by "worked very well" you mean "it helped sell tons of booster packs." The real reason they do this is the existence of chaff cards in a set means you have to buy more booster packs to get what you want. The whole "This makes the game better!" thing is nothing more than a rationalization and nobody outside of WotC's pocket actually believes it.
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2012-11-14, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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