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Thread: Paladin//ToB?

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    Default Paladin//ToB?

    To elucidate, I'm in the process (the beginning, to be precise) of making a certain campaign, "Escape from the Underdark." The idea is that I'll make about thirty level 1 Kobolds who got captured by Drow or Illithid or something and they're supposed to break free and escape. I imagine it'll end at level 3. Most of the encounters will be running and dying, but I'll make plenty of opportunities to mine and make traps and the like.

    In any case, I plan on having about 15 scrubs, like NPC classes, then 10+ regular classes, and the boss is a Half-Dragon (no LA) gestalt Paladin of Tyranny//???. Right now I'm thinking some ToB would be nice. Swordsage would be cool but I plan on him/her wearing full plate. For Warblade I'd be tempted to raise his Int but that'd make him a bit MAD. And Crusader... well, Pally and Crusader seem to go to well together.

    I'm not looking to optimize this guy, just make a decent Kobold leader. Also, he will probably be THF, and despite being level 1 has a magical two-hander and some magical full plate.

    As for the structure of the campaign, I plan on having 5 players, each player choosing 6 Kobolds, but they can only have 2 out at a time. The other 4 are in gunspace, so to speak. Players will have full control after character creation.

    For other Kobold ideas I have the following:
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    Barbarian siblings. One of them was smaller and made fun of by his/her sibling and somehow got a Permanency'd Enlarge Person. One will be a pouncer and one will be a tripper.

    Maybe a Wizard who pretends to be a Sorcerer.

    Ninja and a Rogue or two.

    One that specializes in making traps, another specializing in mining.

    Totemist.

    A fat Kobold with two flaws in exchange for Toughness x2 and the Slow trait.

    Probably a Swordsage given the leader isn't.

    tl;dr
    Looking for a flavor complement for a Half-Dragon Kobold gestalt Paladin, starting at level 1, ending at level 3.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    If you're willing to port in from Pathfinder, I have had a ton of fun with Kobold Alchemists recently. See my sig for a (slight) explanation.

    EDIT: If you're looking for something to gestalt with Paladin, I would honestly be inclined to recommend ditching Paladin and gestalting Warblade/Crusader. Crusader is the go-to Paladin fix around here.

    If you're attached to the Paladin class, it's a toss-up between Warblade and Crusader for the other side. Crusader has more durability, Warblades are better at moving quickly/dishing damage.

    If you're looking for a REALLY weird gestalt, throw SS on the other side, and make a sneaky Paladin.

    EDIT EDIT: I've always wanted to play a sneaky, insane Paladin or Crusader. I feel like the RP would be amazing.
    Last edited by RFLS; 2012-10-09 at 06:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Thanks for the reply. And the edits :P

    I think... it would be neat to go Crusader//Warblade, but I do want to keep Pally on one side. I like the sentence, "Crusader has more durability, Warblades are better at moving quickly/dishing damage." What should I have this hero be, hmm...

    As for the crazy factor, he's like a Kobold champion. He probably is a bit insane, but not enough for it to be a dominant feature.

    Man, tough choice.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    If you're looking for a REALLY weird gestalt, throw SS on the other side, and make a sneaky Paladin.

    EDIT EDIT: I've always wanted to play a sneaky, insane Paladin or Crusader. I feel like the RP would be amazing.
    One advantage to the Sneaky Paladin: easier access into Ruby Knight Vindicator.

    Optimised or not, that class is awesome by title alone.

    "I'm a Fighter." "I'm a Warblade." "I'm a freaking Ruby Knight Vindicator."

    Ruby Knight Vindicator: Because you can't be too bad ass.

    Edit: Darn... too low a level for epicbadassness... but in the future, think about it.

    Still, a Paladin can be honorable and still sneaky... and badass. Bass. Paladins can be Bass.
    Last edited by INoKnowNames; 2012-10-09 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    id argue that you should keep the paladin with his Spellcasting, but because he wont be
    A: Able to get anything that is exclusive to good aligned paladins (IE, EVERYTHING good except for Underdark knight)
    B: Getting past the point of needing to hunt down rulebooks to stay effective

    I would say just give him Crusader Gestalt levels. Also make him Venerable Dragonwrought for the rediculous power from cha

    also, his paladin side shouldnt be just paladin, but Paladin/Blackguard in 1-1 ratio, considering the bugs in blackguards wording*.


    *Blackguard doesnt specify which class named paladin it runs off of, this means that you never need to be good aligned to get the benefits.
    You also need to maintain levels of paladin to keep the retroactive benefits. At least 10 levels of paladin have to be kept at all times as blackguard to get the full class progression.


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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    One advantage to the Sneaky Paladin: easier access into Ruby Knight Vindicator
    Cool class, but he's only going to level 3, according to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr
    Thanks for the reply. And the edits :P

    I think... it would be neat to go Crusader//Warblade, but I do want to keep Pally on one side. I like the sentence, "Crusader has more durability, Warblades are better at moving quickly/dishing damage." What should I have this hero be, hmm...

    As for the crazy factor, he's like a Kobold champion. He probably is a bit insane, but not enough for it to be a dominant feature.

    Man, tough choice.
    Let's see...mechanically, access to White Raven is great with a large group; however, it's more suited to brawlers, which, if your kobolds are doing it right, your group is not. After that you have devoted spirit (healing and whatnot) and Stone Dragon, which both classes have.

    Warblade gets, notably, Iron Heart and Diamond Mind. Given the low levels you'll be operating at, you don't actually need to bother with pumping Intelligence. Given the situation and the preselected race, I wold very much recommend Warblade as the other side, after more thought.

    This is after discarding Swordsage, of course. That being said, if you put Swordsage on there and didn't focus as much on its sneakery as its combat utility, you'd probably do quite well (and would cover more of the Paladin's weak points, not to mention the kobold's)
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    I would recommend Swordsage, if only because there's less overlap with Paladin, which is almost always desirable in gestalt. With Serenity you'd have stat synergy, and the only thing you'd be losing is Wis to AC.
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    I'd also suggest Swordsage. Basically, with Paladin, you already have full BAB, good HD, and good Fort Save. Swordsage gives you good Reflex and Will. It lets you leverage your Will which you will need a decent amount of for your casting, access to very handy and useful maneuvers and stances, and in general, they synergize very well.
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    I would recommend Swordsage, if only because there's less overlap with Paladin, which is almost always desirable in gestalt. With Serenity you'd have stat synergy, and the only thing you'd be losing is Wis to AC.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I'd also suggest Swordsage. Basically, with Paladin, you already have full BAB, good HD, and good Fort Save. Swordsage gives you good Reflex and Will. It lets you leverage your Will which you will need a decent amount of for your casting, access to very handy and useful maneuvers and stances, and in general, they synergize very well.
    Mechanically, I'd say you're both dead on accurate; it sounded like the OP was leaning away from Swordsage due to flavor.
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Mechanically, I'd say you're both dead on accurate; it sounded like the OP was leaning away from Swordsage due to flavor.
    Ah-ha. I didn't communicate that very well. Being the noob that I am, I was leaning away from Swordsage because he/she wouldn't be getting Wis to AC in his/her plate.

    All things considered, looks like probably Warblade or Swordsage. Warblade gives that nice d12 for the poor Kobold and beefs up the THF-ness, but Swordsage is, honestly, the better complement.
    Last edited by danzibr; 2012-10-09 at 08:06 PM.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Keep in mind that the d12 hit die is only, on average, an extra 1 hp per level. I think, with the exception of Iron Heart maneuvers, you could actually emulate a Warblade fairly well as a Swordsage, maneuver-wise.
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Yeah. Since it's so low level I figured the 2 extra hp at level 1 might come in handy.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    I would recommend Swordsage, if only because there's less overlap with Paladin, which is almost always desirable in gestalt.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I'd also suggest Swordsage.
    I'd third that, even in heavy armor. The chasses are complementary, the ability synergy on maneuvers and other abilities are solid with Serenity, and Swordsage provides much greater versatility than Crusader; and the major versatility advantages of Warblade (IHS, WRT) are about one level's dip away.

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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Yeah. Since it's so low level I figured the 2 extra hp at level 1 might come in handy.
    2 extra hp vs increased saves and skill points? I'd assume that the saves would be more important, due to grease and sleep and such being such evil spells at that level.

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    Default Re: Paladin//ToB?

    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    2 extra hp vs increased saves and skill points? I'd assume that the saves would be more important, due to grease and sleep and such being such evil spells at that level.
    well, once the character hit lvl 4, assuming he is leveling the paladin side right, he could probably go with commoner saves and still have exceptional saves, seeing as Divine grace and Dark Blessing stack RAW. (not RAI, ill acknowledge the fact that any interaction between Evildin+Blackguard is entirely because they didnt consider the fact that they were going to be publishing Evildin in 4 years time.)


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