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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    The problem I have with the Repulsor Blade, isn't the damage, the damage is actually very high. Adding Strength to damage would do very little that the Blade doesn't already do, the problem is that it turns a useful ranged attack into a melee attack. Given that the Armour choice for Iron Man is Breast Plate, Half Plate and Full Plate, two out of three Iron Men (or rather 50% because who uses Half Plate?) are going to be slowed down and the Blade is going to be even less usable.

    Dire Reverand has a good idea for the "Shock Trooper" advancement, another is to dual wield the Repulsor Blade and for it to do Slashing and Piercing damage at some point. Maybe gain the ability to ignore Hardness and pierce some forms of Damage Reduction. (this is all for specializing in the Repulsor Blade though)
    Another thing I dislike about the repulsor blade is that you are forced to wield it in two hands.

    If you want to have the repulsor blade always used two-handed, maybe make a single-handed variant, where each time you use the modification, you can form one or two blades (effectively shortswords) on each hand. If you only form one, you can still use a standard repulsor attack. It could look something like this:
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    The problem I have with the Repulsor Blade, isn't the damage, the damage is actually very high. Adding Strength to damage would do very little that the Blade doesn't already do, the problem is that it turns a useful ranged attack into a melee attack. Given that the Armour choice for Iron Man is Breast Plate, Half Plate and Full Plate, two out of three Iron Men (or rather 50% because who uses Half Plate?) are going to be slowed down and the Blade is going to be even less usable.

    Dire Reverand has a good idea for the "Shock Trooper" advancement, another is to dual wield the Repulsor Blade and for it to do Slashing and Piercing damage at some point. Maybe gain the ability to ignore Hardness and pierce some forms of Damage Reduction. (this is all for specializing in the Repulsor Blade though)
    The idea is that the Repulsor Blade gives you the ability to utilize your repulsors in melee combat without provoking attacks of opportunity, and gives you the ability to use some good feats with it too. As far as Dire Reverend's ideas? Yes, fantastic ones. They'll be going into my archetypes write up as soon as I get them finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire Reverend View Post
    Another thing I dislike about the repulsor blade is that you are forced to wield it in two hands.

    If you want to have the repulsor blade always used two-handed, maybe make a single-handed variant, where each time you use the modification, you can form one or two blades (effectively shortswords) on each hand. If you only form one, you can still use a standard repulsor attack. It could look something like this:
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    It's definitely an idea I have in mind as well. I felt that as the Eldritch Glaive is a two-hander, I decided to make this a two-hander as well. I'd consider a Repulsor Blade mastery archetype that would allow for two smaller blades, etc.

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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    This is brilliant! I've seen other "Iron Man" classes on Paizo's board; but your take on it, with modifications is GREAT.

    Waiting till 8th level for Lesser mods is a great idea too. Definitely lets you learn to appreciate your Least mods.

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    smile Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ZDPhoenix View Post
    This is brilliant! I've seen other "Iron Man" classes on Paizo's board; but your take on it, with modifications is GREAT.

    Waiting till 8th level for Lesser mods is a great idea too. Definitely lets you learn to appreciate your Least mods.
    Thank you! I appreciate your kind words, I'm glad you like the class!

    -X
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2012-10-30 at 07:28 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    The idea is that the Repulsor Blade gives you the ability to utilize your repulsors in melee combat without provoking attacks of opportunity, and gives you the ability to use some good feats with it too. As far as Dire Reverend's ideas? Yes, fantastic ones. They'll be going into my archetypes write up as soon as I get them finished.
    Well considering the mods that improve Strength and size and the Ability that increases your size AND the fact that you're using your Armour's Strength and Dexterity instead of your own which may remain extremely low as long as you're at least capable of maintaining a high Constitution and Intelligence... *breathes* Means you should be able to deal decent enough damage in melee as well as... Grapple. And use your other mods and repulsors for ranged attacks.
    Maybe instead of putting the Strength score to boost damage, you only put that on if there is a weapon used to "shape" the Repulsor Blade, the shaping could change the damage to Slashing or Piercing depending on the weapon used.


    A bit of info about the "Walking Artillery" idea, every new mod would ideally build on having the other ranged mods, as the "Shock Trooper" would build on the Repulsors, Flight and the Repulsor Blade. Not only that, but the firepower of the "Walking Artillery" is so great, the armour needs bracing before any of the special modes can be used. Yeah, deploy like the Dwarven Defender, except without being able to regain any movement.

    Just had a thought about "Iron Titan", instead of just defensive mods, how about we build on the size increases? It makes sense with the name. Normal movement, but no running while in the armour?
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    Well considering the mods that improve Strength and size and the Ability that increases your size AND the fact that you're using your Armour's Strength and Dexterity instead of your own which may remain extremely low as long as you're at least capable of maintaining a high Constitution and Intelligence... *breathes* Means you should be able to deal decent enough damage in melee as well as... Grapple. And use your other mods and repulsors for ranged attacks.
    Maybe instead of putting the Strength score to boost damage, you only put that on if there is a weapon used to "shape" the Repulsor Blade, the shaping could change the damage to Slashing or Piercing depending on the weapon used.

    A bit of info about the "Walking Artillery" idea, every new mod would ideally build on having the other ranged mods, as the "Shock Trooper" would build on the Repulsors, Flight and the Repulsor Blade. Not only that, but the firepower of the "Walking Artillery" is so great, the armour needs bracing before any of the special modes can be used. Yeah, deploy like the Dwarven Defender, except without being able to regain any movement.

    Just had a thought about "Iron Titan", instead of just defensive mods, how about we build on the size increases? It makes sense with the name. Normal movement, but no running while in the armour?
    These... these I will address.

    I just, however, thought of something that I did not address before, and that is the awful money sink that this class could become when it comes to ammunition. I'll need to address this. Hmmm.... this reeks of me needing to potentially make a new thread for this class as well, because I did not have the foresight to make a couple of empty posts. Not sure if mods here can make a few blank posts in my name. Oye. This class is getting awesome but complicated, I thank you all for the help you're giving me with this. Seriously, thank you.

    -X
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    This class is getting awesome but complicated, I thank you all for the help you're giving me with this. Seriously, thank you.

    -X
    I wouldn't be such a pest with all the ideas, if I didn't like what you made when you created the thread. So thank you for creating this flavourful and well made class.

    All 6 Archetypes I listed build on specific mods all but one of which have actually been listed either in the original post with them, or in my previous post. Except the "Supreme Engineer" (suckiest named idea), you see the Tractor Beam? Yeah, that's something that can disable equipment.

    Supreme Engineer (another of those damn ideas)
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    One rather interesting ability of this variant, could be the ability to control multiple suits at once, while your main suit's vulnerable mod is intact and while you still have Battery. However, this could be overpowered, even if the Battery use were 1 per round per additional suit in use. Sweet merciful crap 4 Battery per round and all the additional Battery cost to run the buffs and debuffs. This could run up to 10 or more per round, oh dear, that's about 7 rounds at 30th level if Battery progresses at the same rate, 73 Battery with 30 Intelligence (+10), 5 starting Battery and +58 from 29 levels, right?


    Dynamo
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    Obviously more Battery per level, faster recharge, ability to use X mod at will, ability to improve Y mod without risk of system failure. Are all ideas that should be considered.


    Steel Shadow
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    Not just a stealth field, but a whole list of abilities to mess with another creature's sight and other senses. Enemy has tremorsense? Vibrate the ground somewhere else, True Seeing? I'm sure an epelepsy causing strobe light can take care of that. Listen checks? Deploy firecrackers.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Changed repulsor blade so it is a one-handed longsword to allow for repulsor blasts to be made as a secondary, off-hand attack or vice versa.

    Two prestige classes on the docket: The Generator Knights (a way to mod your builds and blue prints) and the Magus Loricatus, storm-smith Iron Men who wield powerful magic with their armors.

    Okay, here's a couple Archetypes for you. I'll be adding Archetypes to this post for now.

    Archetypes

    Repulsor Lord
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    Repulsor Lord, focuses on the Repulsors for combat, sacrificing mods, armour and even Battery power for the ability to become deadlier with Repulsor Blasts, Flight and Blades. The Repulsor Lord's savings throws are Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will. Acrobatics becomes a class skill.

    Bonus Feats:The Repulsor Lord gains the feat Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting at first level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites of the feat, that may only be used with his repulsors.

    Suits: Gain additional suits on 6th, 12th, and 18th levels. The character's primary suit of armor must contain repulsor blades, flight repulsors, and unibeam modifications.

    Armor Modifications: Gain 1 less modification at 9th and 15th level. Lose access to the ballistic modifications, bunker buster and stinger rocket, and unarmed combat modifications, must take repulsor blade at 1st level and may take it as a least modification. At 8th level, the character must take flight repulsors, and 10th level the character must take the unibeam modification.

    Battery: The character's base battery power pool is 1 + the character's Intelligence modifier instead of the usual 5.

    Repulsor Blade: The character may instead of making one repulsor blade, the character may manifest a pair of repulsor blades, one in each hand. The character may treat his Intelligence score as his Dexterity score for the purposes of qualifying for Two-Weapon Fighting and its subsequent feats. Additionally, the character's repulsor blades are focused to a fine edge, inflicting slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.

    Flight Repulsors: The base flight speed of the Repulsor Lord's flight repulsors are 80ft instead of 60ft with good maneuverability.

    Modular Armor: The character does not gain the Modular Armor class feature.


    The Steel Shadow
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    Steel Shadow, improve the Cloaking Device modification, and uses subterfuge, trickery and decoys to his advantage. The Steel Shadow's savings throws are Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will. Stealth becomes a class skill.

    Suits: The character gains additional suits at 6th, 12th, and 18th level. At least half of the character's suits of armor must possess the Cloaking Device modification.

    Armor Modifications: The character may not take any of the ballistic modifications, and may not select flame throwers, powerful build, or stinger rocket modifications either.

    Cloaking Device: The character must select Cloaking Device as a modification at 1st level, and treats it as a least modification. At 8th level, the character may empower his Cloaking Device to act as greater invisibility at the cost of 1 battery power point per minute of use, and may switch between invisibility and greater invisibility as a swift action. Time remaining between types of invisibility is lost.

    Decoy Armor: The character's cloaking device becomes advance enough that the character may cast the blink and mirror image spells as spell-like abilities at at the cost of one battery power and uses the character's initiator level as the caster level. This replaces Modular Armor.


    The Iron Titan
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    Iron Titan, focusing on smashing fists and defensive abilities become a wall of steel, repel attackers with shields and a skin of steel. The Iron Titan's saving throws are Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex and Will.

    Suits: The character gains additional suits at 6th, 12th, and 18th level. The character's suits must all be full plate, and all have the powerful build modification at 1st level.

    Armor Modifications: The character must take the Smashing Fists modification at 1st level and may shield bash with the Force Shield modification as if it were heavy steel shield using the character's armor enhancement bonus as an enhancement bonus to hit and damage as an off-hand attack, and may not take the compacted form, targeting matrix, stinger rocket, bunker buster, or any ballistic modification.

    Damage Reduction: The Iron Titan's armor grants him DR 2/- at 3rd level, and this increases by additional 2 at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.


    Natural Forger (by Madara)
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    While many of the races who become an Iron Man work hard to enjoy the benefits of their craft, some very rare individuals cultivate their Suits straight out of the ground. These individuals cultivate their suits in a wide variety of manners, from taking it out of a tree to mining it out of stone. The most important factor is that the suit is powered by divine energy, which makes it act in a different manner.

    Suits (Su): : The Natural Forger is unable to make suits out of special materials, but they can create a suit in any natural environment, even if they wouldn't normally be considered to have the proper resources or tools to craft armor. This ability modifies the normal Suits ability of an Iron Man.

    Life Force(Su): Each Armor Suit a Natural Forger cultivates is imbued with energy from the forest. This life force acts the same as the Battery ability of an Iron Man. It can be used to power modifications, and it can be drained. The only exception is that the Life Force of a suit is treated like a living creature and is subject to positive energy effects. For every 4 HP a positive energy effect would heal, the suit gains 1 Life Force. The character's base Life Force pool is equal to 3 + the character's Intelligence modifier, and he gains two more battery per class level after first level. This ability replaces the normal Battery ability of an Iron Man.

    Natural Surge(Su): At third level, the Natural Forger begins to learn how to give life energy, rather than just recieve it. Once per day for each point of Intelligence bonus the Iron Man has, they can heal with a touch. With one use of this ability, an Iron Man can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two Iron Man levels he possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets himself or his armor, in which case it is a swift action. This ability replaces the increase in repulsor damage at 3rd level. From that point on, the Natural Forger does 1d6 less damage with their repulsor than a normal Iron Man.


    Scrap Smith (by Madara)
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    For the Goblins who are often inventors, the Iron Man class seems ideal. However, the question arises of the lack of funds and social position of the goblin race. Normally, the social and fiscal standing of these Goblins would prevent their taking on the mantle of the great Iron Man. But, there is a legend of a Goblin who built an Invincible Suit of Armor in a cave, with a box of scraps in order to escape his Orcish captors. Since then, a small tradition of using scraps to create an incredible weapon has begun among the goblins, they are the Scrap Smiths. This Archetype is only available to Goblin Iron Men.

    Scrap Shot(Su): Rather than waste the raw energy it takes to use repulsors, the Scrap Smith creates a launcher of sorts that shoots bits and pieces of scrap metal. This spray acts very simularly to the normal Repulsor ability of an Iron Man, but it does piercing damage rather than bludgeoning damage. In addition, the Scrap Shot forms shrapnel. A creature hit by the Scrap Shot must make a reflex save (10+ number of d6 in attack +Int Modifier) or recieve 1 point of bleed damage per die of the Scrap Shot. The Scrap Smith must make a range attack with a range of 40ft. to hit, but the Scrap Shot isn't perfectly engineered, so the Scrap Smith takes a -1 penalty on attacks with the Scrap Shot. Because the Scrap Smith lacks actual repulsors, they cannot take the Flight Repulsors modification. This ability replaces Repulsors

    It'll Work(Su): Because their Suit isn't made to the highest standards, the Scrap Smith learns to improvise to keep their Suit working.Once each day for each point of intelligence modifier the Scrap Smith possesses to a maximum of four, the Scrap Smith can deal 5 points of damage to his armor to generate 1 exta battery point. This ability replaces the 4th level bonus combat feat.


    The War Machine (by zhdarkstar)
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    Sometimes an Iron Man chooses to sacrifice a significant portion of his repulsors' offensive capabilities to push his integrated weapon systems further than his brethren ever could. The War Machine's saving throws are Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex and Will.

    Bonus Feats:The War Machine gains the feat Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting at first level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites of the feat, that may only be used with his integrated weapon systems.

    Suits: The character gains additional suits at 6th, 12th, and 18th level. The character's suits must all have the Targeting Matrix modification at 1st level, as well as at least two non-repulsor-based integrated weapon systems by 8th level.

    Armor Modifications: Gain 1 less modification at 9th and 15th level. Lose access to Repulsor Blade, Elemental Repulsors, Adamantine Cutting Beam, and unarmed combat modifications. Must take Targeting Matrix and Light Ballistic Housings at 1st level. At 8th level, the character must take Medium Ballistic Spray, at 14th level the character must take the Heavy Ballistic Cannon modification, and at 16th level the character must take the Bunker Buster modification.

    Repulsors: The War Machine's repulsors lose the damage increases at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels. In exchange he gains the following class features: Fire-Linked Weapon Systems, Ballistic Training, Double Buster.

    Fire-Linked Weapon Systems: At 3rd level, the War Machine adjusts his Targeting Matrix to fire multiple ranged weapons systems simultaneously to optimize the damage potential. As a full-round action, a War Machine can attack a single target with as many non-repulsor ranged weapon systems as he chooses. Weapons that require attack rolls are all made at the highest BAB but incur a cumulative -1 penalty for every weapon fired beyond the first, regardless of if the weapon requires an attack roll. Each barrel of the Light Ballistic Housings and Medium Ballistic Spray modifications can be linked together, but count as a single weapon for each barrel fired. Weapons that do not require an attack roll gain a +1 bonus to their save DC for every two weapons linked in the attack. Use of this ability expends 1 battery point for every four weapons linked, or 3 battery points to fire all weapons if augmented with a Power Matrix. A War Machine can only use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier and must wait 1d6 rounds in between uses.

    Ballistic Training: Starting at 7th level, a War Machine gains a bonus equal to his Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when attacking with his Light Ballistic Housings. Furthermore, when he misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. At 11th level, these bonuses are also applied to the Medium Ballistic Spray. At 15th level, the Heavy Ballistic Cannon gains the bonus damage, but gains a +2 bonus to the save DC instead of the misfire penalty reduction, as it does not require an attack roll.

    Double Buster: At 19th level, the War Machine has managed to modify the Bunker Buster shoulder mount to add a second rocket by using slightly smaller rockets. The damage decreases to 15d6 but the burst radius and save DC remain unchanged.

    Modular Armor: The character does not gain the Modular Armor class feature.




    -X
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2013-05-24 at 09:34 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Some things: (minor comments in blue)
    Changed repulsor blade so it is a one-handed longsword to allow for repulsor blasts to be made as a secondary, off-hand attack or vice versa.
    As a move action, by focusing his palm mounted repulsors into a resonating pattern, the character can form a single one-handed beam of energy that roughly resembles a longsword. This weapon may benefit from high Strength or feats that utilize a character's Strength score (such as Power Attack) to increase a weapon's damage and can benefit from feats that improve his use of a longsword, and from feats like Combat Reflexes or Improved Sunder. All aspects, treat this weapon as a longsword wielded. <--This could use rewording :) This weapon inflicts damage equal to the character's repulsors and while this modification is in use, the character cannot use his repulsors for flight or for ranged attacks.
    I assume in changing the text, you forgot to change the bolded part. Does Repulsor Blade still make you unable to fly?

    Another thing, Repulsor Lord's Repulsor Blade mentions the blades deal slashing instead of bludgeoning, but the standard Repulsor blade says in all aspects to treat the weapon as a longsword, so it already would deal slashing damage.
    The idea is that the Repulsor Blade gives you the ability to utilize your repulsors in melee combat without provoking attacks of opportunity, and gives you the ability to use some good feats with it too. As far as Dire Reverend's ideas? Yes, fantastic ones. (Thank you. :) They'll be going into my archetypes write up as soon as I get them finished.
    It's definitely an idea I have in mind as well. I felt that as the Eldritch Glaive is a two-hander, I decided to make this a two-hander as well. I'd consider a Repulsor Blade mastery archetype that would allow for two smaller blades, etc.
    Bummer. I wanted to be able to dual-wield repulsors as a steel shadow person. They seem like they would just go together so well.

    I know this deviates from the regular Pathfinder archetype idea, but what if you could give up additional suits to gain pseudo archetypes? Example: A Steel Shadow could, at 6th/12th/18th/Feat level decide to not gain a new suit that level and gain the Repulsor Lord's Repulsor Blades ability for all suits with repulsor blades.

    -------------------------

    When taking archetypes you are shoehorned into taking specific modifications at certain levels. If the archetype has benefits to modifications (which they do) and aren't forced at certain levels, people will take the abilities anyways, but without the feeling that it was forced upon them.

    If you decide to keep the required modifications, some things need to be adressed:
    Repulsor Lord Armor Modifications: Gain 1 less modification at 9th and 15th level. Lose access to the ballistic modifications, bunker buster and stinger rocket, and unarmed combat modifications, must take repulsor blade at 1st level and may take it as a least modification. At 8th level, the character must take flight repulsors (What if the character did not take jump jets?), and 10th level the character must take the unibeam modification.

    Steel Shadow Cloaking Device: The character must select Cloaking Device as a modification at 1st level, (The other two archetypes put the "you must take X ability at Y level" in the Armor Modification area.) and treats it as a least modification. At 8th level, the character may empower his Cloaking Device to act as greater invisibility at the cost of 1 battery power point per minute of use, and may switch between invisibility and greater invisibility as a swift action. Time remaining between types of invisibility is lost. <--I'm not entirely sure what this means. Could you explain more?

    Iron Titan Armor Modifications: The character must take the Smashing Fists modification at 1st level and may shield bash with the Force Shield modification as if it were heavy steel shield using the character's armor enhancement bonus as an enhancement bonus to hit and damage as an off-hand attack, and may not take the compacted form, targeting matrix, stinger rocket, bunker buster, or any ballistic modification. At 8th level, the character must take the powerful build modification and it must be in place on all of his suits of armor.
    All of these abilities force you to take certain modifications at certain levels, but only one requires it to be on all of your suits. If I really really hated unibeam, can I just put unibeam on another suit and just never use the suit (waste of a suit, but this is just an example)

    -------------------------

    Edit: What is your opinion on a feat/modification that allows you to optionally have one or more suits have a 14 in strength and an 18 in dexterity? What about an Augment Dexterity modification? (The suits of armor are still tied to a maximum Dexterity bonus)
    Last edited by Dire Reverend; 2012-10-31 at 03:30 AM.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]


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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire Reverend View Post
    Some things: (minor comments in blue)

    I assume in changing the text, you forgot to change the bolded part. Does Repulsor Blade still make you unable to fly?
    Oye, so much to fix.

    Another thing, Repulsor Lord's Repulsor Blade mentions the blades deal slashing instead of bludgeoning, but the standard Repulsor blade says in all aspects to treat the weapon as a longsword, so it already would deal slashing damage.
    Treat as a longsword for combat, but repulsor energy does blunt damage unless used with elemental repulsors.

    Bummer. I wanted to be able to dual-wield repulsors as a steel shadow person. They seem like they would just go together so well.

    I know this deviates from the regular Pathfinder archetype idea, but what if you could give up additional suits to gain pseudo archetypes? Example: A Steel Shadow could, at 6th/12th/18th/Feat level decide to not gain a new suit that level and gain the Repulsor Lord's Repulsor Blades ability for all suits with repulsor blades.
    Well, the wall I was running into with Archetypes for this is is that the class is versatile enough to handle most of this without them. I almost want to say there are archetype suits you can build, i.e. the Stealth Armor, Arctic Armor, Space Armor, War Machine, and Hulk Buster, and just be done with that. Your idea is pretty solid though, about giving up additional suits for these specialized suits as Suit Archetypes.

    When taking archetypes you are shoehorned into taking specific modifications at certain levels. If the archetype has benefits to modifications (which they do) and aren't forced at certain levels, people will take the abilities anyways, but without the feeling that it was forced upon them.

    If you decide to keep the required modifications, some things need to be adressed:All of these abilities force you to take certain modifications at certain levels, but only one requires it to be on all of your suits. If I really really hated unibeam, can I just put unibeam on another suit and just never use the suit (waste of a suit, but this is just an example)
    I may force you into certain mods, but I generally give boosts to those certain mods because I think those mods in particular emphasize what the archetype is about. Unibeam makes perfect sense on a Repulsor Lord, for example, as Unibeam is the ultimate expression of the tech in an offensive state.

    Edit: What is your opinion on a feat/modification that allows you to optionally have one or more suits have a 14 in strength and an 18 in dexterity? What about an Augment Dexterity modification? (The suits of armor are still tied to a maximum Dexterity bonus)
    I'm trying to keep this as genuine to the comic, movies, and tv shows as I can. Tony's pretty spry in his armor, but he's no Hawkeye or Black Widow, and no where even close to Spider Man. Armor training and if the character has an 18 Dex, he uses that Dex score over the armor (check out Construct Armor), plus Armor Training, making it out of Mithral... there's really not a major reason to do this Dex augmentation thing. I see where you're coming from, but the character can also use Targeting Matrix to help out with Ranged attacks, and with Iron Man's armor, he definitely relies more on brute force then elegance and finesse in battle.

    If anyone wants to try their hand at archetypes for this, I'd be stoked to see them as well, btw.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Fixed Repulsor Blade (again).

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    To be honest, I think the archetypes/prestige classes shouldn't cut out the options for using other mods, but instead supply new mods that require having the base mods as their, uhh, base.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    To be honest, I think the archetypes/prestige classes shouldn't cut out the options for using other mods, but instead supply new mods that require having the base mods as their, uhh, base.
    Archetypes remove then add to balance the class in a different way. I remove mod options, to improve specialization with mods (think like Fighter Archetypes). The problem is, is that this class is already so customizable that its hard to really do this. All of the aforementioned archetypes all are building off of the mods I've already supplied per suggestions from the thread. Prestige classes would like have new mods in them, but I'd rather alter/improve and remove/reduce current mods for archetypes, with the addition of a new mechanic or three at most. Keep it simple, ya know?

    Any suggestions on how to make the above archetypes better? (don't have the time myself atm to be able to alter them right now)

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Oye, so much to fix.

    Treat as a longsword for combat, but repulsor energy does blunt damage unless used with elemental repulsors. (It would probably be a good idea to specifically spell that out in the standard Repulsor Blade section. As it is now, it just looks like you're trying to say it deals the damage of a repulsor blast instead of a longsword.)

    Well, the wall I was running into with Archetypes for this is is that the class is versatile enough to handle most of this without them. I almost want to say there are archetype suits you can build, i.e. the Stealth Armor, Arctic Armor, Space Armor, War Machine, and Hulk Buster, and just be done with that. Your idea is pretty solid though, about giving up additional suits for these specialized suits as Suit Archetypes. (Yay I can make a dual-wielding iron ninja!)

    I may force you into certain mods, but I generally give boosts to those certain mods because I think those mods in particular emphasize what the archetype is about. Unibeam makes perfect sense on a Repulsor Lord, for example, as Unibeam is the ultimate expression of the tech in an offensive state. That's fine, but what about the fact that only one says you need it on every suit, and all other forced abilities just say you need to take it at a certain level? It would be really awesome if you specifically said "You need to have this in at lease one of your suits" or "You need this in every suit, ever" on each archetype's armor modification section.
    Any suggestions on how to make the above archetypes better? (don't have the time myself atm to be able to alter them right now)
    What is your opinion on increasing the time a Steel Shadow Iron Man can stay cloaked without using more battery power?
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire Reverend View Post
    Treat as a longsword for combat, but repulsor energy does blunt damage unless used with elemental repulsors. (It would probably be a good idea to specifically spell that out in the standard Repulsor Blade section. As it is now, it just looks like you're trying to say it deals the damage of a repulsor blast instead of a longsword.)
    That's exactly what I'm saying. If you're an 8th level Iron Man and have Repulsor Blade, you swing that puppy as if it were a longsword for the purposes of feats, but it inflicts 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage (or energy damage if you have elemental repulsors) and you may your Strength modifier to this. I should caveat in that you add your Armor class feature's enhancement bonus to this as well, as I did this with Smashing Fists, but I'm not sure if that would over power it.

    Well, the wall I was running into with Archetypes for this is is that the class is versatile enough to handle most of this without them. I almost want to say there are archetype suits you can build, i.e. the Stealth Armor, Arctic Armor, Space Armor, War Machine, and Hulk Buster, and just be done with that. Your idea is pretty solid though, about giving up additional suits for these specialized suits as Suit Archetypes. (Yay I can make a dual-wielding iron ninja!)
    I'll need to come up with Armor Archetype templates perhaps. What mods/level you need for it, and treat it like an archetype, but you may only select prebuilt suits from blue prints or whatever at each level you get a suit. Just some ideas.

    I may force you into certain mods, but I generally give boosts to those certain mods because I think those mods in particular emphasize what the archetype is about. Unibeam makes perfect sense on a Repulsor Lord, for example, as Unibeam is the ultimate expression of the tech in an offensive state. That's fine, but what about the fact that only one says you need it on every suit, and all other forced abilities just say you need to take it at a certain level? It would be really awesome if you specifically said "You need to have this in at lease one of your suits" or "You need this in every suit, ever" on each archetype's armor modification section.
    I did that intentionally. I may need to clarify this, but it wasn't an oversight, it was intentional.

    Any suggestions on how to make the above archetypes better? (don't have the time myself atm to be able to alter them right now)
    What is your opinion on increasing the time a Steel Shadow Iron Man can stay cloaked without using more battery power?
    Perfectly reasonable to add to the Steel Shadow class of armor wearer. The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of pre-made armor archetypes and an archetype that only selects from those, but may gain more suits correspondingly because he doesn't get to pick and choose modifications.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    I uhh, I may have made a mistake when presenting those ideas as "Archetypes" wrongly thinking that Archetypes are Pathfinder's version of Prestige Classes, as opposed to Variants.

    Those ideas of mine were meant to be Prestige Classes, however, considering they're meant to specialize in certain abilities of the base class and improve on them with their own exclusive goodies. Well they work well enough as Archtypes anyway.


    I'd personally prefer to see the "Iron Titan" title used for something that looks like a Dwarven Defender on performance enhancing drugs, or at least roller skates.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Question. What happens if someone without levels in this class get their hands on the armor? Say, by killing the Iron Man. I'm thinking about using this as an NPC later on, but I'm hesitant about giving any of my players a set of this armor.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Mage View Post
    Question. What happens if someone without levels in this class get their hands on the armor? Say, by killing the Iron Man. I'm thinking about using this as an NPC later on, but I'm hesitant about giving any of my players a set of this armor.
    Unless they have Iron Man levels, the armor is too complicated for the character to use. Simple and effective solution. Gives them a reason to potentially multiclass Iron Man and get a free suit of cool armor to boot (maybe make them get levels in Iron Man until they're able to use all of the mods on it too).

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    So, any progress on the Prestige Classes and Epic Levels?

    I'm kinda struggling between the Iron Titan as Prestige Class' Size increase, whether it should be permanent giving the character a Humongous Mecha, or temporary, similar to this, but without the negative side effect... And controllable.

    http://goblinscomic.com/11292008/

    Also think that the armour for Walking Artillery should class as one Size larger, because of the ordinance carried. Unibeam? Pur-lease, this thing should be able to crack open enemies with some sort of "Supreme Cannon" or whatever. Yes, I watched that movie.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    This class makes me so very happy!

    Its extremely well done, both balanced and capturing the flavor of the Iron Man. Any chance of more Divination-based modifications, I wouldn't mind getting a status-like affect with my suit. I think you fall in high T3, T2. A bit stronger than the Warlock, which is T4, but definently not a T1.

    Edit: And you need a box of scraps reference Perhaps for a Goblin archtype? Goblins need some love.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    So, any progress on the Prestige Classes and Epic Levels?

    I'm kinda struggling between the Iron Titan as Prestige Class' Size increase, whether it should be permanent giving the character a Humongous Mecha, or temporary, similar to this, but without the negative side effect... And controllable.

    http://goblinscomic.com/11292008/

    Also think that the armour for Walking Artillery should class as one Size larger, because of the ordinance carried. Unibeam? Pur-lease, this thing should be able to crack open enemies with some sort of "Supreme Cannon" or whatever. Yes, I watched that movie.
    I don't like Epic levels, to be perfectly honest, and Pathfinder doesn't really support it either. I may just leave this at 20, and leave to DM's to decide what it does at higher level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    This class makes me so very happy!

    Its extremely well done, both balanced and capturing the flavor of the Iron Man. Any chance of more Divination-based modifications, I wouldn't mind getting a status-like affect with my suit. I think you fall in high T3, T2. A bit stronger than the Warlock, which is T4, but definently not a T1.

    Edit: And you need a box of scraps reference Perhaps for a Goblin archtype? Goblins need some love.
    Thank you, I'm glad you like the class and approve of the mechanics to do it. A status mod wouldn't be out of the question.

    I am working on several things atm, and you'll see posts for much of them soon enough. As far as Iron Man archetypes and prestige classes, I've got a few archetypes written and a couple prestige classes started, but anyone may feel free to try to write something for this class and either post it here or link it in another thread.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    I am working on several things atm, and you'll see posts for much of them soon enough. As far as Iron Man archetypes and prestige classes, I've got a few archetypes written and a couple prestige classes started, but anyone may feel free to try to write something for this class and either post it here or link it in another thread.

    -X
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    Natural Forger (Invincible Iron Man Archetype)

    While many of the races who become an Iron Man work hard to enjoy the benefits of their craft, some very rare individuals cultivate their Suits straight out of the ground. These individuals cultivate their suits in a wide variety of manners, from taking it out of a tree to mining it out of stone. The most important factor is that the suit is powered by divine energy, which makes it act in a different manner.

    Suits (Su):

    The Natural Forger is unable to make suits out of special materials, but they can create a suit in any natural environment, even if they wouldn't normally be considered to have the proper resources or tools to craft armor. This ability modifies the normal Suits ability of an Iron Man.

    Life Force(Su):
    Each Armor Suit a Natural Forger cultivates is imbued with energy from the forest. This life force acts the same as the Battery ability of an Iron Man. It can be used to power modifications, and it can be drained. The only exception is that the Life Force of a suit is treated like a living creature and is subject to positive energy effects. For every 4 HP a positive energy effect would heal, the suit gains 1 Life Force. The character's base Life Force pool is equal to 3 + the character's Intelligence modifier, and he gains two more battery per class level after first level. This ability replaces the normal Battery ability of an Iron Man.

    Natural Surge(Su):


    At third level, the Natural Forger begins to learn how to give life energy, rather than just recieve it. Once per day for each point of Intelligence bonus the Iron Man has, they can heal with a touch. With one use of this ability, an Iron Man can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two Iron Man levels he possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets himself or his armor, in which case it is a swift action. This ability replaces the increase in repulsor damage at 3rd level. From that point on, the Natural Forger does 1d6 less damage with their repulsor than a normal Iron Man.

    Scrap Smith (Invincible Iron Man Archetype)

    For the Goblins who are often inventors, the Iron Man class seems ideal. However, the question arises of the lack of funds and social position of the goblin race. Normally, the social and fiscal standing of these Goblins would prevent their taking on the mantle of the great Iron Man. But, there is a legend of a Goblin who built an Invincible Suit of Armor in a cave, with a box of scraps in order to escape his Orcish captors. Since then, a small tradition of using scraps to create an incredible weapon has begun among the goblins, they are the Scrap Smiths.
    This Archetype is only available to Goblin Iron Men.


    Scrap Shot(Su):

    Rather than waste the raw energy it takes to use repulsors, the Scrap Smith creates a launcher of sorts that shoots bits and pieces of scrap metal. This spray acts very simularly to the normal Repulsor ability of an Iron Man, but it does piercing damage rather than bludgeoning damage. In addition, the Scrap Shot forms shrapnel. A creature hit by the Scrap Shot must make a reflex save (10+ number of d6 in attack +Int Modifier) or recieve 1 point of bleed damage per die of the Scrap Shot. The Scrap Smith must make a range attack with a range of 40ft. to hit, but the Scrap Shot isn't perfectly engineered, so the Scrap Smith takes a -1 penalty on attacks with the Scrap Shot. Because the Scrap Smith lacks actual repulsors, they cannot take the Flight Repulsors modification.

    This ability replaces Repulsors


    It'll Work(Su):

    Because their Suit isn't made to the highest standards, the Scrap Smith learns to improvise to keep their Suit working.Once each day for each point of intelligence modifier the Scrap Smith possesses to a maximum of four, the Scrap Smith can deal 5 points of damage to his armor to generate 1 exta battery point.

    This ability replaces the 4th level bonus combat feat.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Was reading another thread about an improved Fighter and saw something that allowed a Fighter at negative HP keep fighting as long as their weapon or armour were still intact. My mind wondered and I started thinking about Halo Reach's Armour Lock ability and obviously you know where I'm going with this one.

    I propose an ability based on Armour Lock, most likely under a different name to stop fanboys whining. (though, when don't they?)

    Armour Lock (rename as appropriate): Subject enters a defensive stance in which they're immune to damage for X rounds (not sure which stat to use). Subject may not move, attack or use any offensive or status mods.

    Area Shield: Subject while in defensive stance, may create a protective field making all within immune to damage.

    Techno Fort: Subject creates miniture fortress in area around themselves (based on their Armour Size) which protects themselves and allies, granting complete concealment, bonuses to stats and possibly the ability to use some of the Iron Man's offensive/status mods themselves to attack enemies outside, while he stays immobile at the centre commanding the fortress to attack and disable enemies within. Alternatively he could move within the limits of the fortress.


    Just throwing these out, in case they're workable.
    Last edited by Threadnaught; 2012-11-15 at 09:42 AM.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    I may have missed something, but what about Don Cheadle's character in Iron Man 2 who utilizes one of Tony's suits?

    How would you represent the ability of someone other than the creator of such a suit, being able to use it?

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    I may have missed something, but what about Don Cheadle's character in Iron Man 2 who utilizes one of Tony's suits?

    How would you represent the ability of someone other than the creator of such a suit, being able to use it?
    Look at the feats presented at the end of the class entry. It's called Lend Armour, and does exactly what it says on the tin.
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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    I may have missed something, but what about Don Cheadle's character in Iron Man 2 who utilizes one of Tony's suits?

    How would you represent the ability of someone other than the creator of such a suit, being able to use it?
    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Unless they have Iron Man levels, the armor is too complicated for the character to use. Simple and effective solution. Gives them a reason to potentially multiclass Iron Man and get a free suit of cool armor to boot (maybe make them get levels in Iron Man until they're able to use all of the mods on it too).

    -X
    There you go, or allies without class levels can use it if the Iron Man has the Lend Armour Feat.
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    It's not just the DM's story and it's not just the players' story, it's everybody's story and a way to have a good time.

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    *Runs off to make a thread*

    Edit: Incoming Homebrew for Homebrew Archetypes:

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    Natural Forger (Invincible Iron Man Archetype)

    While many of the races who become an Iron Man work hard to enjoy the benefits of their craft, some very rare individuals cultivate their Suits straight out of the ground. These individuals cultivate their suits in a wide variety of manners, from taking it out of a tree to mining it out of stone. The most important factor is that the suit is powered by divine energy, which makes it act in a different manner.

    Suits (Su):

    The Natural Forger is unable to make suits out of special materials, but they can create a suit in any natural environment, even if they wouldn't normally be considered to have the proper resources or tools to craft armor. This ability modifies the normal Suits ability of an Iron Man.

    Life Force(Su):
    Each Armor Suit a Natural Forger cultivates is imbued with energy from the forest. This life force acts the same as the Battery ability of an Iron Man. It can be used to power modifications, and it can be drained. The only exception is that the Life Force of a suit is treated like a living creature and is subject to positive energy effects. For every 4 HP a positive energy effect would heal, the suit gains 1 Life Force. The character's base Life Force pool is equal to 3 + the character's Intelligence modifier, and he gains two more battery per class level after first level. This ability replaces the normal Battery ability of an Iron Man.

    Natural Surge(Su):


    At third level, the Natural Forger begins to learn how to give life energy, rather than just recieve it. Once per day for each point of Intelligence bonus the Iron Man has, they can heal with a touch. With one use of this ability, an Iron Man can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two Iron Man levels he possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets himself or his armor, in which case it is a swift action. This ability replaces the increase in repulsor damage at 3rd level. From that point on, the Natural Forger does 1d6 less damage with their repulsor than a normal Iron Man.

    Scrap Smith (Invincible Iron Man Archetype)

    For the Goblins who are often inventors, the Iron Man class seems ideal. However, the question arises of the lack of funds and social position of the goblin race. Normally, the social and fiscal standing of these Goblins would prevent their taking on the mantle of the great Iron Man. But, there is a legend of a Goblin who built an Invincible Suit of Armor in a cave, with a box of scraps in order to escape his Orcish captors. Since then, a small tradition of using scraps to create an incredible weapon has begun among the goblins, they are the Scrap Smiths.
    This Archetype is only available to Goblin Iron Men.


    Scrap Shot(Su):

    Rather than waste the raw energy it takes to use repulsors, the Scrap Smith creates a launcher of sorts that shoots bits and pieces of scrap metal. This spray acts very simularly to the normal Repulsor ability of an Iron Man, but it does piercing damage rather than bludgeoning damage. In addition, the Scrap Shot forms shrapnel. A creature hit by the Scrap Shot must make a reflex save (10+ number of d6 in attack +Int Modifier) or recieve 1 point of bleed damage per die of the Scrap Shot. The Scrap Smith must make a range attack with a range of 40ft. to hit, but the Scrap Shot isn't perfectly engineered, so the Scrap Smith takes a -1 penalty on attacks with the Scrap Shot. Because the Scrap Smith lacks actual repulsors, they cannot take the Flight Repulsors modification.

    This ability replaces Repulsors


    It'll Work(Su):

    Because their Suit isn't made to the highest standards, the Scrap Smith learns to improvise to keep their Suit working.Once each day for each point of intelligence modifier the Scrap Smith possesses to a maximum of four, the Scrap Smith can deal 5 points of damage to his armor to generate 1 exta battery point.

    This ability replaces the 4th level bonus combat feat.
    I love both of these, especially the Goblin Scrapper. Love it. I'm going to add these to the archetype list and credit you

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    Was reading another thread about an improved Fighter and saw something that allowed a Fighter at negative HP keep fighting as long as their weapon or armour were still intact. My mind wondered and I started thinking about Halo Reach's Armour Lock ability and obviously you know where I'm going with this one.

    I propose an ability based on Armour Lock, most likely under a different name to stop fanboys whining. (though, when don't they?)

    Armour Lock (rename as appropriate): Subject enters a defensive stance in which they're immune to damage for X rounds (not sure which stat to use). Subject may not move, attack or use any offensive or status mods.

    Area Shield: Subject while in defensive stance, may create a protective field making all within immune to damage.

    Techno Fort: Subject creates miniture fortress in area around themselves (based on their Armour Size) which protects themselves and allies, granting complete concealment, bonuses to stats and possibly the ability to use some of the Iron Man's offensive/status mods themselves to attack enemies outside, while he stays immobile at the centre commanding the fortress to attack and disable enemies within. Alternatively he could move within the limits of the fortress.


    Just throwing these out, in case they're workable.
    Definitely sounds like those abilities could be worked together to make another archetype. I'll try to look into doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    I may have missed something, but what about Don Cheadle's character in Iron Man 2 who utilizes one of Tony's suits?

    How would you represent the ability of someone other than the creator of such a suit, being able to use it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Look at the feats presented at the end of the class entry. It's called Lend Armour, and does exactly what it says on the tin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    There you go, or allies without class levels can use it if the Iron Man has the Lend Armour Feat.
    And you guys rule

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  29. - Top - End - #89
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Definitely sounds like those abilities could be worked together to make another archetype. I'll try to look into doing this.
    There's a couple of things I mentioned in Iron Titan as a PrC that fit those abilities, there's also "Supreme Engineer" (seriously, we need a better name) which is supposed to help out allies while disabling enemies.
    Also, while the Fortress is based on the size of the suit, most Iron Men may be Medium sized and their suits will usually match, so this is probably just gonna be one of those "it's bigger on the inside" things. Perhaps it could have a radius of the same space the armour takes up?


    Also speaking about Iron Man 2, the Whip Guy. Repulsor Lord needs his Repulsor Whips... As an optional mod, mind.
    Founder of the Rudisplorkers' Guild.
    High Rudisplorker of the Rudisplorkers' Guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    In a twisted, sinister way, it's actually kind of brilliant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    The rules shouldn't just be a tool for making a character that's awesome at everything and never fails. Neither should they just be a tool for the DM to tell his epic story with no player input.

    It's not just the DM's story and it's not just the players' story, it's everybody's story and a way to have a good time.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Question Re: [PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

    Construct Armor: The fantastic suits of armor designed by the Iron Man have surpassed standard suits of armor, having their own systems of mechanical muscles and their own resilience that exceeds standard armor beyond all simple armor that anyone could simply forge in a blacksmith's shop; his armors become almost alive. Suits of class specific armor that are forged by the Iron Man all gain the traits of a creature with the construct type (with an Intelligence of 0 and a Wisdom and Charisma score of 8) and may be affected as such while being worn or if left unattended. Additionally, the armor has a base Strength score of 18 and a base Dexterity of 14; while in the armor, the character uses these attributes if they equal to or exceed the character's base stats; modifications that improve the character's physical abilities improve upon these base attributes from this level on (spells that affect the character, such as bear's endurance of bull's strength affect the character, not his armor and only modifications or wondrous items built into his suit will change these scores). Any suit of armor that is constructed as part of this class has a base hit point total equal to 5 hit points per Iron Man class level plus his Intelligence modifier for each level. When the construct armor is worn, these hit points are added to the character's total hit points as temporary hit points that may be replenished by any ability that would repair or restore a construct. When the Iron Man suffers hit point damage, subtract from the armor's hit point total first, then from the Iron Man's hit point total if the armor's hit point total would be reduced to 0 or less.

    If the armor's hit points are reduced to 0, the armor has suffered critical damage and the character suffers gains the broken condition while in continued operation (treat as if it were both armor and weapon, tool and item with charges in regards to the broken condition). The armor can continue to function in a critically damaged fashion for a number of rounds equal to the Iron Man's initiator level or until it runs out of battery power; after that, it fails entirely and becomes inert, rendering the Iron Man entangled and the Iron Man's armor modifications and repulsors go offline, being unable to be used until the armor is repaired or until the Iron Man uses a different suit of armor. The rules of Construct Armor supersede the rules in the Suits class feature where applicable (such as when the armor's hit point total is reduced to half or lower, with construct armor it no longer gains the broken condition until it reaches 0 hit points).

    Should this be considered to be put in the suits section? Just wondering since I'm wanting to utilize this class but from the way it's worded you don't get the armors hit points until 8th level... Or maybe have this as the starting point and giving the construct and extremis armor higher starting points like maybe go from 5 for standard to 8 for construct then 10 or 12 for the extremis since it is supposed to be the powerhouse suit... Just a thought.

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