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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Jul 2012

    Default Marking for non-defenders?

    Hey, y'all. Remember that Throw and Stab shenanigans build I was making?

    I need to learn how to turn it into a defender. I currently am going cheesy to boost the defences, and now I just need a marking feature! Here's the basics;

    Race; undecided, but must be Fey.
    Class; Blackguard|Ranger. I currently have no MC.

    I currently have no PP, so if it's a PP suggestion, I'm all ears. I really like Tactical Warpriest from PH1, as it adds a marking feature.

    Any suggestions? Thanks!
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Strongarm Enforcer (Martial Power, requires rogue) also gives marking.

    Also: Ardent Strike and other paladin powers force divine sanction, which is a mark. Hybrid blackguards aren't forced into specific at-wills.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Ardent Strike works as a charge MBA. You lose your radiant keyword but you gain a good mark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Jul 2012

    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    I don't wanna give up my Throw and Stab, unfortunately.

    Strong-Arm Enforcer is pretty cool! I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    You can still throw and stab, I'm talking about changing your pally at-will. Combo still works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
    Guide for starting 4E.

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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    I need to keep Virtuous Strike so I can double-dip the striker features! :P
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    To clarify, in case Tegu8788 is recommending the use of Ardent Strike as part of the Throw and Stab (instead of simply using the two abilities seperately): Throw and Stab has been errata'd such that its 'effect' line now reads "You move up to your speed and make a melee basic attack against a creature other than the target.", rather than allowing an actual charge attack. So yes, Ardent Strike is incompatible with Throw and Stab, as the OP indicates.
    Last edited by allonym; 2012-10-11 at 11:32 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Jul 2012

    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Yes, exactly.

    Thanks for saying what I should've said. Saved me a lot of typing, and allowed me to continue to be a lazy-butt. :D
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Alright then, I'm not up on errata, no builder. Valorous Smite is good, gives you a nice burst mark. Sanction will be far stronger than Challenge. I'm inclined to look to MC feats if you can't get enough from Paladin powers.

    Fighter
    Student of the Sword: Gives you a +1 to hit and mark once per encounter.
    Battle Awareness: Once an encounter, MBA someone that shifts or doesn't attack you.

    Warden
    Defender of the Wild: Once per encounter mark everyone next to you.

    Battlemind
    Demanding Talent: You get Battlemind's Demand once per encounter.

    Swordmage
    Arcane Aegis: You get an Aegis once per encounter.

    Berserker
    Battle Berserker: Daily use of the Berserker Fury feature.

    If you are a Half-Elf, you may be able to dip into something that way. But to be a solid defender, you are going to have to give up some of your striker potential. You still do a ton of damage and have solid defenses that will help. Make sure you have enough health and surges to handle being a primary target.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
    Guide for starting 4E.

    Spoiler
    Show

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Tegu! Those are all awesome choices! I'm going to take consideration into those MCs, as a lot of them sound like something I could use.
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Be aware that most of those only give you a mark for one turn per. Read through Divine Power, grab yourself the DS cha powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
    Guide for starting 4E.

    Spoiler
    Show

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    I'm thinking about taking a few dailies that create marks that last for the whole encounter (There are a few), or the Cleric's Tactical Warpriest (Or the Warpriest in PH2) for a decent marking feature that lasts the entire encounter.

    Maybe I should combine both?

    Also, Tegu, I know you have a build based ont he same shenanigans. What route did you choose for furthering this build?
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Not really, I twinked it at level 2. Used a farbond spellblade so he could use a shield in his off hand. Skirmishing stance is a good daily, versatile armor lets me use it twice a day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
    Guide for starting 4E.

    Spoiler
    Show

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    A mark is no good (just a –2, and you can often do that more easily by another method) without the means to enforce it. And an enforcement is no good unless it really, really sucks to be on the receiving end of it. Ideally, such an enforcement will outright negate or strongly neuter the triggering attack—or it should at least do a hellaton of damage in the process. (Even more ideally, it should also be hard to avoid triggering by any method other than attacking you, but there's only so much you'll get on a dabbler.)

    What I'm saying is that there's more to making a defender than just having a mark. For instance, anyone can take that MC Paladin feat to get a sustainable Divine Challenge 1/encounter, but without all the support from feats, items, and PPs that a typical Paladin invests into DC, it'll be nothing more than an annoyance, and most monsters will only obey it if they were going to attack you anyway (or if you've managed to pile an unseemly amount of radiant vulnerability on them, of course). It's a true mark with a built-in punishment that can be kept up for the length of the encounter if you're lucky, but it still won't make you much of a defender, because there just isn't much bite to it until you add in all the trimmings, even on a CHA-heavy character.

    Basically, you'll need to make sure that you can really punish whatever marks you're slinging around, or they won't amount to much more than a nuisance. A –2 to attacks isn't completely trivial, but it's also usually not enough on its own to make a monster attack you if it has a better target somewhere else.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    All very good points. If I recall this build does have some good radiant cheese already going on, which is beneficial. As I said earlier, this is going to do better as high damage tank. Essentially, use DPR to draw attention and defenses to survive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
    Guide for starting 4E.

    Spoiler
    Show

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Zaq - I completely agree. That's why the Tactical Warpriest looks really good right now. It's level 16 marking feature lets me make an opportunity attack.

    Oh, snap. I just realized I can combine this with Heavy Blade Opportunity and Two Weapon Flurry for some really mean things.

    Edit;

    Nevermind. The combo would've allowed me to use Virtuous Strike, and then Two-Weapon Flurry would've allowed me to make an opportunity attack with my off-hand weapon, and Heavy Blade Opportunity would've allowed me to use any at will.

    So - any opportunity attack would've been those three attacks instead of just Virtuous Strike.

    Oh well. Still deciding between Heavy Blades or hammers for ELSIR HAMMER STUDENT (Let's me use a hammer to target Reflex with Throw and Stab. Also, if I wasn't MC Cleric, I could go with Hammer of Gond. Check it out. :D

    Edit 2;
    Hammering Iron. Let's me push the target one square when making an opportunity attack. Can I exploit this?

    Also, Hammer of Gond would allow me to use a heavy shield with a large hammer. Just sayin'. But then with an Artificer MC, I can't take that PP anyway. :/
    Last edited by Alan_Pehnereas; 2012-10-11 at 10:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    If you ever see Hitler riding a T-Rex in your direction - you, my friend, are a very unlucky person.
    My stupid blog on religion and stuff.
    My stupid blog on love. (Ask me stuff!)

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Its a shame that Throw and Stab was errata-ed (granted a while ago). I always thought it could be fun to do a Hybrid Ranger|Fighter with Throw and Stab, Cleave + Deft Hurler for Throw + Charge + Throw. But now Human Hunters can do something similar with Throw + Stab + Dual weapon attack.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Jul 2012

    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    True beans, Firebug.

    I've heard of Half-Elf Bladesingers PMCing Ranger, along with their Dilettante being Throw and Stab. After PMCing, they'd take Dual-Weapon Strike.

    So... They'd throw, stab, dual strike, and set off a Bladespell. Pretty cool.

    Edit;

    Basically, I wanna have a shield bonus, but need to both Throw AND Stab.
    Last edited by Alan_Pehnereas; 2012-11-04 at 11:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    If you ever see Hitler riding a T-Rex in your direction - you, my friend, are a very unlucky person.
    My stupid blog on religion and stuff.
    My stupid blog on love. (Ask me stuff!)

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    Farbond Spellblade can be Thrown, returned to hand, then Stab. This frees up a hand for a shield. Or the Two-Weapon Defense feat gives you a +1 shield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    The second piece of advice is "don't build a hybrid", but hey, this is Tegu8788's game and he's kinda the High Priest of Hybridization, so you're cool there.
    Guide for starting 4E.

    Spoiler
    Show

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Marking for non-defenders?

    True...

    I would rather have the Distance Weapon, though. Oh, well.

    Well... It's very true that it could work well. And a Farbond Fullblade just sounds like sex.

    WAIT! What about a two-handed weapon? There could be shenanigans! Is the sacrifice in a shield bonus worth it?

    EDIT;

    Lotulis has the defensive property, and Defensive. It's a double weapon, so two-weapon feats will apply, so I can still get a Shield Bonus with Two-Weapon Defense.

    YES!
    Last edited by Alan_Pehnereas; 2012-10-12 at 12:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    If you ever see Hitler riding a T-Rex in your direction - you, my friend, are a very unlucky person.
    My stupid blog on religion and stuff.
    My stupid blog on love. (Ask me stuff!)

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