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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Feedback request.

    My group is starting up again and I drew the short straw for DMing and two of the newest .....additions to it seem to think that my rules are excessive. We are playing 2nd edition(Don't laugh) with the lore for vampires and werewolf's imported from White Wolf. ( Hay i like it and it works for me)

    But here they are

    *Back ground, Have one! Tell me a story so I can play with it.
    *IF you wish to have a ring of awesome-o, Tell me a fun story to explain how you got it.
    *If you wish to multi-class, I expect a back-story reason to explain it.
    *IF you wish to play a paladin, You will earn it in game.
    *Alignment is a guide
    *I don't care if you fudge it slightly, When you roll your char. But I do expect it to be realistic.
    *Only one char each, And have a second ready to go. Although I do expect if your char dies, that the next one will be a different class.
    *Every round of combat will be logged, die rolls, hp's and items used.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurv View Post
    My group is starting up again and I drew the short straw for DMing and two of the newest .....additions to it seem to think that my rules are excessive. We are playing 2nd edition(Don't laugh) with the lore for vampires and werewolf's imported from White Wolf. ( Hay i like it and it works for me)

    But here they are

    *Back ground, Have one! Tell me a story so I can play with it.
    *IF you wish to have a ring of awesome-o, Tell me a fun story to explain how you got it.
    *If you wish to multi-class, I expect a back-story reason to explain it.
    *IF you wish to play a paladin, You will earn it in game.
    *Alignment is a guide
    *I don't care if you fudge it slightly, When you roll your char. But I do expect it to be realistic.
    *Only one char each, And have a second ready to go. Although I do expect if your char dies, that the next one will be a different class.
    *Every round of combat will be logged, die rolls, hp's and items used.
    Multi-class reason: You're <insert race here> and <multi-class> is a part of that race's heritage. Did you mean Dual-classing? Since it's 2E, multi and dual class are very different things, and racially specific.

    Earn Paladin in game: So, if you have the stats for a paladin, you can't play a paladin, but you might be able to turn into the paladin class mid-game? Would that retroactively affect your (presumably fighter) levels?

    Alignment is a guide: Not sure what you mean by this. The statement seems to imply something more towards "that doesn't fit your alignment, that's not what you'd do" which is asking for trouble given how vague the alignment boxes get in edge cases.

    Define 'realistic.'

    Why log everything? That being specified strikes me as odd.
    Last edited by huttj509; 2012-10-11 at 05:25 PM.
    "Come out, Neville."

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Say for instance player W wish's to play an elf wizard rogue, I expect a back-story as to were he learned his wizard and rogue skills. Its the little details that provide so many plot hooks for the DM's

    As far as earning paladin in game, (And as i said I do not mind some fudgeing of stats) I normally open that up for debate with the player. But in second edition only humans can be paladin, So I would be open to dual classing it from then, or rerolling the earlier levels to paladin.
    As for it being an earned class....that class has always had issues when it comes to group dynamics. And Quite frankly I make the players earn it so they play a holy knight, not a draconian in-game rules lawyer.

    Alignment is a guide, AKA if you are lawful good, Your char should be striving (And failing on occasion its part of the rp) To be lawful good. I do not buy into the iron cage of alignment, Hence it is a guide. Truthfully As long as the players keep it on the right side of the good vs evil side of it.....I tend not to get to fussy. I got more important things to concern my self with.

    And defining realistic... If I should look at your stats and do a IRL Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, The stats in question may of failed to pass for realistic. It is subjective, But I need to trust the players to roll the chars on their own time, IF A trend is noted. Than other measures may be put into effect.

    Ahhh, Logging everything. I Do not mind the occasional fudge as long as it adds to the effort of enhancing the game. But when it comes to encounters. It lets me keep an eye on trends. You know little things like player L Always having healing potions (That I the DM can not account for) and never rolling a One. And having a statistically unlikely amount of hits for the thaco they have....Or same player saying So and So's cleric had been healing them. You know the little things.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurv View Post
    Say for instance player W wish's to play an elf wizard rogue, I expect a back-story as to were he learned his wizard and rogue skills. Its the little details that provide so many plot hooks for the DM's
    Do you expect the same of single-classed characters? If yes, why specify multi-class? For racial multi-class I always felt of it more as racial styles combining them, rather than training the separate skills in different places. That's why elves can be fighter/mages, because they have a tradition and schools teaching the path of fighter/magery.

    If the new people are new to you, as well as your game, they may rightly be wondering where your "WTF" level is. I recently rolled 18/17/15/14/12/10. 100% legit and upfront. I'd be annoyed if I was told to roll, then told to reroll because it was too good without any standards in place for me to know when it was too much. Especially if I had made the whole character, then was told to remake.

    You seem to be saying "alignment is a guide rather than a cage," while to me it sounded like "alignment is a guide as opposed to a descriptor." Your players may have the same misunderstanding.

    Do you have any info on what they found overly restrictive? It's a rather vague term to be asking about.
    "Come out, Neville."

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurv View Post
    *Every round of combat will be logged, die rolls, hp's and items used.
    Are you seriously going to overload yourself with more work ?
    I always try to offload as much as possible to the players and minimise the book-keeping I have to do.
    The DM is on most critical paths in the game-mechanics, this could seriously slow everything down.
    Besides HP should be semi-secret between the players because its OOC and knowing this can cause meta-gaming. Same with items too, on occasion.

    Is this a question of trust, if so Every round of combat may be logged might suffice, provided that you do it for the first few (simple) combats and finesse this during the more complicated ones.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Are you seriously going to overload yourself with more work ?
    Word. The backstory stuff made sense to me. This rule, not so much. I can understand reserving the right to handle the math for suspected cheaters, but I wouldn't run a game for someone I expected would cheat.
    If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Yes hutt, I do require back story. Honestly I do not care if they learned it from their great grandpa who was the awsomeness of a thousand generation tradition, At an academy, Or in the rough and tuff streets.

    As far as dice stats, Let us say what you showed I can believe. But some players Consistantly seem to be able to make chars with nothing less then a 14 and...oddly enough they seem to be the same ones with the most accounting issues.

    As far as logging goes. Its keeping track of round, what you rolled to hit on who, hp gain and loss and spell. It is one line of paper and I will say it helps keep arguements down...and quite frankly some of the players need the structure inorder to keep it together (players do the logging, I only call combat round and keep track of my monsters work)

    Although oddly the people who complained about the last one are the ones who have....issues when drawing up a char, out-leveling the group and other accounting based issues. But problems disappeared when we started logging like that, So I am content. Most all of the feedback was on what was done to keep track of items being used and accounting for things like hp's and exp

    As far as alignment, Do you have any idea how little i give about it. As i said just keep it on the right side of the fence on the good vs evil and I am content.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Quote Originally Posted by scurv View Post
    Yes hutt, I do require back story. Honestly I do not care if they learned it from their great grandpa who was the awsomeness of a thousand generation tradition, At an academy, Or in the rough and tuff streets.

    As far as dice stats, Let us say what you showed I can believe. But some players Consistantly seem to be able to make chars with nothing less then a 14 and...oddly enough they seem to be the same ones with the most accounting issues.

    As far as logging goes. Its keeping track of round, what you rolled to hit on who, hp gain and loss and spell. It is one line of paper and I will say it helps keep arguements down...and quite frankly some of the players need the structure inorder to keep it together (players do the logging, I only call combat round and keep track of my monsters work)

    Although oddly the people who complained about the last one are the ones who have....issues when drawing up a char, out-leveling the group and other accounting based issues. But problems disappeared when we started logging like that, So I am content. Most all of the feedback was on what was done to keep track of items being used and accounting for things like hp's and exp

    As far as alignment, Do you have any idea how little i give about it. As i said just keep it on the right side of the fence on the good vs evil and I am content.
    You have a rule about alignment when you don't really care about alignment. Why list a rule about it?

    You specifically call out multi-class distinct from single class as requiring specific justification. If there's nothing special about multi-class required compared to single class, why have a separate rule for it?

    Those are 2 rules which, as stated, imply that a) alignment will be more restrictive than it actually will, and b) class choice will be more restrictive than it actually is.

    The complaint you had is, specifically, "the rules are excessive." Now, I don't know the folks involved. They might mean too many rules, they might mean overly restrictive, but having listed rules that only pad out the list and possibly serve to mislead the prospective players in your expectations, probably doesn't help.

    I am not saying they are badwrongfun, I am saying that, as stated, they do not communicate what you seem to want them to communicate, and seem to be unnecessary/redundant, and thus 'excessive.'
    "Come out, Neville."

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Serpentine's Avatar

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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    I had no trouble understanding that scurv meant that alignment is not going to be rules-lawyered or strictly enforced, and I would expect most people to understand that it was meant in the sense of "alignment is a guide, not a rule".

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Nope, nothing excessive there. When I first read the post I thought 'seriously? Those are all perfectly justifiable.' I would just have your rule on backstory include everyone instead of just multi-class; and logging everything does seem tedious but your reasoning for it is sound.
    ‘Meaningless! Meaningless!’ says the Teacher. ‘Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.’ What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    Meh, I got some of it hammered out, Alot of people do find the logging or keeping track tedious, But I have seen people who basically do the same thing on their own.

    Me, I am big on back-story note I marked it twice! More you want to start with, The more back-story I demand It is a HUGE help in making judgement calls. And quite frankly It sort of helps sell me on the idea of someone wanting to play an <insert awesome race/class idea here>. And occasionally it is just awesome to have someone playing a prince! I get so much mileage out of the little things like that. If someone is wishing to keep it simple...I do not mind that, The world has its wallflowers too.

    The Player issues from talking to them(and not all the two new players) Is mostly centered around me keeping track of items and such that is in the game. Yes, I am one of those DM's who knows how many healing potions are in circulation, And keeps track of little things like all the loot in circulation.
    And my little You can not play the same class twice in a row rule (Case by case exceptions). Lets be realistic If the Soandso adventurer troupe, Has lost four rogues in as many weeks and they are using their items and selling their gear......ya know. And quite frankly....I detest disposable chars, Seriously I detest that with a passion.

    Don't get me wrong if my count vs a player count is only off by a little bit. on exp, gold or loot... I do not get to upset about it, Meh Quite possibly my bad. But well, I love this group, The problem children included, But some of them occasionally need a little help staying honest.
    Like say for instance our friend the dwarven warrior who likes to use 3 to 5 healing potions a session. (In someone else s game) when he buys like 2 when we are in town like once every five sessions....Now I like him and he brings an element to the RP that I enjoy. So I do not mind giving him a little help to keep it fairish.

    But just between us, If someone wants to be able to self heal a few a day, Let me know! We can make a rod of healing And I have no issues in-housing that. Just the scavenger hunt the npc priest sends you on to make it could make for several fun sessions.

    Now Understand I do not mind the occasional fudge, truthfully I kinda expect it on occasion But I rather kinda not happen in the table dice rolling time, if it is in Char generation or exp tallying...Meh Don't abuse it and I am content.
    Last edited by scurv; 2012-10-12 at 05:02 PM. Reason: my grammar fails

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    My comments on logging were that it would bog you down, but if you are farming this out then its less of a concern.

    I find that peer pressure is very useful for sorting out most player issues of the kind you describe, it is a group activity after all. No one likes being singled out for this sort of thing. On the other hand if it is endemic within the group then you may need to change the culture of the group, which can be hard.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Feedback request.

    With one of us there is an...honesty issue. We try but he can be a manipulative little ahem yea. There is also the attention issues some of the other players have and with the logging it seems to keep those in check. The group by and large is a good one, I'm related to half of it (Adds a fun dynamic to it, trust me)
    But as for peer pressure there are some who are not effected by it as most are. I mean seriously if he was he would of picked up on the scorn we offered when he would acquire what ever box set he thought the DM was running. But I homebrew my campaigns. And well...once you acquire the taste for his obliviousness to some forms of feedback. He can be quite fun to Game with. In a back biting , ratting you out, frenemy sort of way.

    If it was up to me I would kick him from the group, I like him personally. And he adds some fun dynamics to the game. But since we all take turns DMing and it is still a split decision between us, I will keep my personal issues with him confined to internet drama for the moment.

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