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    Default Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Holistic Warrior
    ‘Some think of magic as an art. I think of fighting as a martial art.’
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    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: d8
    Starting Gold: As Fighter
    Starting Age: As Wizard
    Class Skills-The holistic warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Martial Lore (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st level: (2+ Int Modifier) x4
    Skill Points per Level: 2+ Int Modifier

    Holistic Warrior
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Scribe Martial Script, Scribe Stance|6|6|1
    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |-|7|6|1
    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |-|8|6|1
    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |-|9|6|2
    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |-|10|6|2
    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |-|11|6|2
    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |-|12|6|2
    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |-| 13|6|2
    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |-|14|6|2
    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |-|15|6|3
    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |-|16|6|3
    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |-|17|6|3
    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |-|18|6|3
    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |-|19|6|3
    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |-|20|6|3
    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |-|21|6|4
    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |-|22|6|4
    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |-|23|6|4
    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |-|24|6|4
    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |-|25|6|4[/table]

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A holistic warrior is proficient with light armor, bucklers, light shields, simple and martial weapons.

    Maneuvers: A holistic warrior may learn maneuvers off of any list and starts with 6 maneuvers. He learns an additional maneuver at each level and may learn maneuvers off martial scripts by paying 100 gp per level of the maneuver for special incenses to meditate on it (this is in addition to the cost for the martial script which is used up in the process). He may not learn more than 1 maneuver per day in this manner.

    Maneuvers Readied: A holistic warrior may ready no more or less than 6 maneuvers (this number may not be increased through feats). He readies his maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers he chooses remain readied until he decides to exercise again and change them. He need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready his maneuvers; any time he spends 5 minutes in practice, he can change his readied maneuvers. When he uses a maneuver it remains expended for 1d4-1 rounds thereafter and then is again available for use.

    Stances Known: A holistic warrior learns 1 stance at first level and additional stances as shown on the table above. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, but the holistic warrior does have to ready a stance and he may ready no more than 1 stance at a time. He readies his stance in the same way he readies maneuvers. A holistic warrior may learn additional stances off special martial scripts that contain them in much the same fashion as he does with maneuvers.

    Scribe Martial Script: At 1st level, a holistic warrior gains Scribe Martial Script as a bonus feat.

    Scribe Stance: A holistic warrior can scribe a stance using his scribe martial script feat instead of a maneuver. Only another holistic warrior may make use of the item created. If used in combat it allows the user to adopt the stance scribed for 1 minute provided he has the requisite initiator level.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-10-14 at 05:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    I think the question is what are you going for here? The Blade Scholar done at the Wizard's community beats what you currently have.
    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...75882/19525490

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    I think the question is what are you going for here? The Blade Scholar done at the Wizard's community beats what you currently have.
    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...75882/19525490
    Roughly the same thing except I wanted a new type of recharge mechanism that would allow selectivity but not require active refreshing. I would disagree that what you linked is better though. I would say it's got more class features but a wizard generally lacks class features other than bonus feats. I chose not to include a feat every 5 levels to balance out the full base attack bonus progression and other aspects.
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    Roughly the same thing except I wanted a new type of recharge mechanism that would allow selectivity but not require active refreshing. I would disagree that what you linked is better though. I would say it's got more class features but a wizard generally lacks class features other than bonus feats. I chose not to include a feat every 5 levels to balance out the full base attack bonus progression and other aspects.
    The Blade Scholar can learn a lot more maneuvers and the list from which the bonus feats come from is gigantic. As such versatility in strategy goes to the Blade Scholar. The higher BAB is all this has over the other as a stance is a maneuver as the developers just made stances seperate to limit the amount of stances. Also your maneuvers won't recover automatically because whenever a martial adept readies a maneuver it stays that way until expended therefore technically all you did was give a cooldown to actively recover maneuvers from adaptive style.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    I know you didn't intend to do what I said it would do but even if you fix that what you have is a character that peaks at level 1. While maneuvers do still advance this class doesn't so why would they continue it when they could go into another martial PrC?
    You are really going to have to explain what is your theme and goal with this class. I can tell you right now that it simply doesn't make sense for a scholarly, eastern savant warrior with no knowledge skills, only 2 skill points, and virtually no class features.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2012-10-13 at 10:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    I know you didn't intend to do what I said it would do but even if you fix that what you have is a character that peaks at level 1. While maneuvers do still advance this class doesn't so why would they continue it when they could go into another martial PrC?
    You are really going to have to explain what is your theme and goal with this class. I can tell you right now that it simply doesn't make sense for a scholarly, eastern savant warrior with no knowledge skills, only 2 skill points, and virtually no class features.
    The highlander didn't focus on skills or tricks over just knowing many various swordsmanship styles. This class only focuses on maneuvers and nothing else. Also, what do you mean by needing to fix the recovery mechanic?
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Random maneuver recovery like that is... bad. Very bad.

    At 1st level, you'd have to keep track of 6 different countdowns, each one of a different length, before you can use your stuff again. It's just clunky, and does not work well.

    And I haven't watched Highlander in forever, but I would argue that martial skill wasn't all they had.

    And the reason for having more than a pair of class features is that you are encouraging 1 or 2 level dips, which is bad design. In fact, modelling anything after the Wizard is actually really bad design, since the class was poorly designed (much like the Wizard, it's a no-brainer to PrC with this class, since you aren't actually really losing anything.)

    So, yeah, the Blade Scholar is a better implementation of the "wizardly initiator" concept, since it gives you some incentive to actually advance in the class, and fully shapes your fighting style (due to restricting you to certain weapons if you want to use weapons from a specific discipline).

    Whereas if anyone approached me and wanted to play this class, I wouldn't let them, since the fact that it is literally a dip class just offends me on a deep and personal level.

    Good try, though; maybe take a look at some of your assumptions for this class, and adjust? And may I suggest looking at, for example, the Crusader recovery system?

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    The highlander didn't focus on skills or tricks over just knowing many various swordsmanship styles. This class only focuses on maneuvers and nothing else. Also, what do you mean by needing to fix the recovery mechanic?
    Look in the book and my post before. If a class doesn't have an in-battle recovery mechanic they have to prepare between each encounter through a series of exercises. You actually didn't make an in-battle recovery mechanic as maneuvers always stay until expended.
    "A holistic warrior may ready no more or less than 6 maneuvers (this number may not be increased through feats). He readies his maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers he chooses remain readied until he decides to exercise again and change them. He need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready his maneuvers; any time he spends 5 minutes in practice, he can change his readied maneuvers. When he uses a maneuver he may not use it again for 1d4-1 rounds thereafter."
    You didn't mention any form of regaining in battle a maneuver so all you did was give a waiting period to the much needed Adaptive Style feat tax.
    Like I said I know you didn't mean that but as I have and Amercha said there isn't any incentive to stay in this class after level 1 even if you edit it the way you want. As of now this class has little to no style and theme.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    Look in the book and my post before. If a class doesn't have an in-battle recovery mechanic they have to prepare between each encounter through a series of exercises. You actually didn't make an in-battle recovery mechanic as maneuvers always stay until expended.
    "A holistic warrior may ready no more or less than 6 maneuvers (this number may not be increased through feats). He readies his maneuvers by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers he chooses remain readied until he decides to exercise again and change them. He need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready his maneuvers; any time he spends 5 minutes in practice, he can change his readied maneuvers. When he uses a maneuver he may not use it again for 1d4-1 rounds thereafter."
    You didn't mention any form of regaining in battle a maneuver so all you did was give a waiting period to the much needed Adaptive Style feat tax.
    Like I said I know you didn't mean that but as I have and Amercha said there isn't any incentive to stay in this class after level 1 even if you edit it the way you want. As of now this class has little to no style and theme.
    I fixed it to work correctly, but I figured a simple class that offered the ability to use maneuvers from any discipline would be nice to have. I also figured that full base attack bonus and all disciplines was an even trade for all other class features.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-10-14 at 05:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Full attack bonus is nothing. It helps you in no way at all. At. All.

    At least, in comparison to a sane maneuver recovery system; hell, the way this is set up, your access to all disciplines is not very useful, since you are still limited by which Disciplines you have maneuvers known from.

    After all, even if you had access to all maneuvers, you probably still wouldn't focus on more than maybe 4, in all.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Full attack bonus is nothing. It helps you in no way at all. At. All.

    At least, in comparison to a sane maneuver recovery system; hell, the way this is set up, your access to all disciplines is not very useful, since you are still limited by which Disciplines you have maneuvers known from.

    After all, even if you had access to all maneuvers, you probably still wouldn't focus on more than maybe 4, in all.
    Well, what tier would you place this class in then?
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    A low-ish Tier 3.

    The Tier, however, does not indicate anything such as, for example, how fun it is to play the class, actual power level (power actually varies massively inside a Tier), or how worth it it is to actually take levels in the class.

    Basically, this class only gets one unique "trick", and everything else it gets can be duplicated by other classes. It's like how the Fighter is pretty much the template they used for martial classes, or how Monks can be easily duplicated with a few magic items, some feats, and maybe a couple of level dips, or how you can pretty much copy everything a Barbarian can do with a single magic item and some class features you pick up over your levels.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    I fixed it to work correctly, but I figured a simple class that offered the ability to use maneuvers from any discipline would be nice to have. I also figured that full base attack bonus and all disciplines was an even trade for all other class features.
    As Amercha says it really doesn't matter much. The only thing that BAB can exclusively help you with is qualification of certain feats/PrC's earlier and the full amount you can Power Attack. In general yes it makes it easier to hit things but BAB hardly is the only way. A lawful Incarnate truly shown how absolutely insignificant BAB can be as when you take into consideration its aura and soulmelds(Avatar, weapon..etc) it had a better attack bonus than a lot of the dedicated fighting classes. Yes, I also know that BAB provides iteratives but the Incarnate's crazy, feral cousin proves that benefit is small as well. The Blade Scholar makes up the difference+ to your class with one feat(Knowledge Devotion) with its fantastic skills. Early on in 3.X the developers overvalued base attack bonus so don't worry about it for making the same mistake.
    What you need is a unique mechanic that is imbedded in a theme you want to create. It is easy to say I want a character that can learn anything in a given area. So, what do you specifically want here? A skirmishing wanderer? A tactical warrior? Please point us in a direction so we can help you fill it in.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    As Amercha says it really doesn't matter much. The only thing that BAB can exclusively help you with is qualification of certain feats/PrC's earlier and the full amount you can Power Attack. In general yes it makes it easier to hit things but BAB hardly is the only way. A lawful Incarnate truly shown how absolutely insignificant BAB can be as when you take into consideration its aura and soulmelds(Avatar, weapon..etc) it had a better attack bonus than a lot of the dedicated fighting classes. Yes, I also know that BAB provides iteratives but the Incarnate's crazy, feral cousin proves that benefit is small as well. The Blade Scholar makes up the difference+ to your class with one feat(Knowledge Devotion) with its fantastic skills. Early on in 3.X the developers overvalued base attack bonus so don't worry about it for making the same mistake.
    What you need is a unique mechanic that is imbedded in a theme you want to create. It is easy to say I want a character that can learn anything in a given area. So, what do you specifically want here? A skirmishing wanderer? A tactical warrior? Please point us in a direction so we can help you fill it in.
    A class that can learn any maneuver, only execute a few of them, have full BAB, and execute the ones he wants selectively but has a passive recharging mechanic that's more predictable than the crusader. I had actually thought of several unique mechanics but I was worried that it would be too powerful if I added extra stuff.
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    It won't be too powerful, don't worry; seriously, 9th level maneuvers are equal to 6th level spells, and I'm pretty sure a Wizard limited to 6th level spells would be a Tier 3 character.

    Actually... this is a pretty damn good base for PrCing, since you only go up in how many maneuvers you get to have prepared.

    You could have it work as follows:

    1. Have Readied and Granted maneuvers like a Crusader.
    2. Have the list "scroll." The maneuver in the first slot only changes if you don't initiate any maneuvers that round.

    How would this work? Say you can Ready 6 maneuvers, and that you have 3 Granted Maneuvers.

    You start combat with 1/2/3 Granted. If you don't use any of them, you start next round able to use 2/3/4. If you use 1 and 3, for example, you get 2/4/5 the next round, and so on.

    Now, if I've done my math correctly, you want to have at least double your Granted maneuvers in Readied maneuvers, because otherwise you could (if you got 5 Readied and 3 Granted) spam all 3 of your granted maneuvers, and then get one back the next round, which is kinda silly.

    So I would say a

    {table=head]Level|Maneuvers Readied (Granted)
    1|4(2)
    2|4(2)
    3|5(2)
    4|5(2)
    5|6(3)
    6|6(3)
    7|7(3)
    8|7(3)
    9|8(4)
    10|8(4)
    11|9(4)
    12|9(4)
    13|10(5)
    14|10(5)
    15|11(5)
    16|11(5)
    17|12(6)
    18|12(6)
    19|13(6)
    20|13(6)[/table]

    progression should work, maybe with a "you spin the Wheel of Maneuvers up to X spaces" class feature that you get later.

    What you'll have to do is word it so you don't get idiot crusader abuse, but it'll probably end up fine.

    And, the best part? If you use Maneuver Cards, you literally deal out your granted maneuvers, and leave your readied maneuvers in a stack next to it; any initiated maneuvers are placed on the bottom of the stack, you move cards to the left, and then you deal out cards until your Granted slots are full again.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    I would have to go against Amercha's current set up. This class would actually get more maneuvers readied than a Swordsage while not paying any action to gain the next set on the list. Remember, at the very most only 3 maneuvers can be spent a round as counters and boosts run against eachother due to the actions they usually take up(swift vs. immediate). The only real drawback is they are the same ones but the Warblade has the same problem except this has more set up. I would say he should start with three and go to seven like the Warblade and reduce granted from one to three. I think we need to set up a role for this guy with other features before it gets the godsend recovery system.

    A couple of things in which this could be good at would be skirmishing and countering. It doesn't have a high hit die so it won't be a tank, which is fine the crusader can have it. It should have higher skills add knowledge, spot, and listen with at least 4. As I said before counters and boosts are mutually exclusive as well as starting new stances. However please put up what you had in mind before it needs some flavor.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2012-10-15 at 01:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Is it bad if I still prefer my lower powered set-up that lacks many class features over the suggested ones?
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    Default Re: Holistic Warrior [3.5 Martial Adept][PEACH]

    Nope; we can only give advice, and can't force you to do anything.

    It's just that... I'll admit it.

    The normal system for initiating maneuvers is kinda crap.

    I have a base class that essentially gets whatever maneuvers they want (swapped out daily), and then go ahead and simply initiate them often. They can also bank up good rolls, and don't even roll d20s to attack (they, and they alone, go to the 3d6 method of dice rolling). They're still Tier 3, even though they can get serious dice shenanigans going. Their pretty much the closest thing I've seen to a point-based initiator.

    To tell the truth, I've never actually made a base class that uses the normal scheme for maneuver use.

    I'm just going to say that, while maneuvers are fun, they alone don't make a class. You'll need a bit more (seriously, the class features don't have to be anything major; you could have a Bardic Knowledge-type thingy that is based around knowing about martial styles and such.)

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