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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default level 1 shapechange

    I noticed while looking at some TO stuff that an Artificer could get access to Shapechange at level 3. This led to the idea that a character get Shapechange at level 1, and nothing else (and be playable). Say, Commoner plus "this character may shapechange at will with a CL equal to their 'commoner' level".
    My question is basically, how broken is this? I suspect that this would be Tier 1, but if it could be pinpointed more I would appreciate it.

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Hmm. Shapechange doesn't grant SLAs, so... probably only a T3, in the end. A very good, very versatile T3, especially if you have good book diving skills, but still only T3-- you really don't hit T2 without 9th level spells/powers.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    the problem isnt really shapechange, but the openendedness of it and when you get it. At lvl 1? its not going to be exceptional. at lvl 17? It is amazing because of the shear number of options and how powerful some of them are


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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    It depends largely on whether you interpret shapechange to grant creatures' innate spellcasting. If so, it's a straight-up T1. Otherwise, as mentioned, it's probably T3; it's essentially Wild Shape Ranger with a lousier chassis.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    eggs's Avatar

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    I'm having a hard time seeing how a book-diving player won't auto-solve any problem thrown his way.

    Even at level 1, look at the Pixie for permanent invisibility, flight and arrows or the vargouille/rime sprite/abeil/corrolax for area paralysis/daze/sleep/color spray effects at will (while flying out of reach), the tatterdemanimal for animal possession, the clockroach for a very high-damage breath weapon for its level, and so on.

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    Arcanist's Avatar

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    If memory serves, their is a monster that has Shapechange -at will at it's own HD in caster level.
    Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Could you use Ultimate Magus shenanigans to boost your CL above your HD? If yes then you basically just shouted this at the game:
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    If memory serves, their is a monster that has Shapechange -at will at it's own HD in caster level.
    Any idea of what monster it is?

    I know the Malaugrym have a CL20 (Su) Shapechange ability, but don't know of any others offhand (although a couple of Demon Lords/Archdevils might have a Shapechange SLA).
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    Any idea of what monster it is?

    I know the Malaugrym have a CL20 (Su) Shapechange ability, but don't know of any others offhand (although a couple of Demon Lords/Archdevils might have a Shapechange SLA).
    THAT is what I was thinking of. There was a thread on it a whiles back it also included other creatures with bizarre CR like one that had Disjunction and Disintegrate at will... Always wanted to sick that on a player...
    Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    THAT is what I was thinking of. There was a thread on it a whiles back it also included other creatures with bizarre CR like one that had Disjunction and Disintegrate at will... Always wanted to sick that on a player...
    The Clockwork Horrors from MM2 are what you're looking for. And they are broken beyond belief (well, the Adamantine one at least. The others aren't too terrible.)
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    This is the problem with the tier system. At low level this would shatter the game more than any non infinite loop wizard does but it's a lower tier because it doesn't do as many different things.

    Because of the number of low HD high LA things I'd say it cause more troubles at low levels than high levels. Sure it gets better with level, but not as fast as everything else does. Once you get to high enough level other things may have see invisibility, flight, enough damage to get past DR and so on and it's not as broken or special anymore.

    Oddly enough by the time it can do the most it becomes relatively mild. Same as both points above again but in reverse.
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Along the same lines as the OP's question: what about 3/day Gate, as in attempting to re-create the summons from Final Fantasy (FFX would probably be the closest match to this).

    I see it being broken from level 6 onward...
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    For similar reasons as shapechange, I think that this will crack the game like an egg at lower levels, and be powerful but not insane at high levels. Every day, you can recruit any creature at twice your HD (if the creature you want is from the prime, just use your first use of gate to travel to another plane, your second use to call the creature, and then your third use to travel with them back to where you want to be).

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    I'm playing an artificer and would like a forum friendly hint at finding this so called "3rd level shapechange".
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    Along the same lines as the OP's question: what about 3/day Gate, as in attempting to re-create the summons from Final Fantasy (FFX would probably be the closest match to this).

    I see it being broken from level 6 onward...
    Aren't Final Fantasy summons more like high-level blasting/evocation spells?
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Aren't Final Fantasy summons more like high-level blasting/evocation spells?
    depends on the game, but more typically that would be yes.


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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Aren't Final Fantasy summons more like high-level blasting/evocation spells?
    The recent games I'd have to say "No", but In everything up till I believe 7 they were one shot attacks that potentially did the damage cap whereas everything past 8 they are actual summons that remain in play for a while (either till they die, you dismiss them, or in some cases the duration of their summon expires).
    Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleran View Post
    Any idea of what monster it is?

    I know the Malaugrym have a CL20 (Su) Shapechange ability, but don't know of any others offhand (although a couple of Demon Lords/Archdevils might have a Shapechange SLA).
    Arcanaloth. MMII, page 203. Shapechange at will, caster level 12, same as it's HD. CR 17.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Arcanaloth. MMII, page 203. Shapechange at will, caster level 12, same as it's HD. CR 17.
    The MM2?

    I should have guessed. Where else could something so broken be found?
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: level 1 shapechange

    Quote Originally Posted by Annos View Post
    I'm playing an artificer and would like a forum friendly hint at finding this so called "3rd level shapechange".
    Artificers don't work with spell levels, but with caster levels (the free access to all spell lists is important here as well), so getting high level spells is a simple matter of showing that the spell is available at that caster level. Divine Crusader gets domain spells at SL=CL (also Ur-Priest, only with Cleric list). Since this extreme cheese requires that you be able to specify PrCs (with non-standard/obvious/intended entry satisfaction (for best results)), you must also be able to specify feats (because prereqs). Mage Slayer give -4 CL (amongst other things). So, SL9 -4 for Mage Slayer = 5 = Artificer3 + the +2 that Artificers get to CL for satisfying item prereqs. Sorc/Wiz/ list is also available via Sublime Chord, with considerably weirder scaling (SL9 at CL10 (before MS)) (similar with Bard list). Just remember that item cost is generally multiplied by SL AND CL, so save up (WBL be damned) (and choose your spells wisely). And now that I have CL even more on the brain I realize how easy it is to bump this to level 1.

    As far as spellcasting goes, no matter how I read the rules I can't see them as being allowed. In fact, were I a DM, I would be more willing to grant SLAs than spells, as they feel like a more inherent part of the creature (and I can get 'manifesting' with a feat (if there is anything out there with that (now that I think of it, 'spells' could work the same (TO based on iffy readings, my favorite)))). For CL boosting, the best I can find are Varisian Tattoo (taking Spell Focus: Trans first (probably a good idea anyways)) and Bloatmage Initiate, Karma Bead (UMD/above cheese), and the Orange Ioun Stone making +7, +8 with cheese. So, Zodar at 9th, Solar at 14th (with all spells as Su) for ~10 minutes/day. And the Artificer could do all of this even better. I call it good.

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