Chameleon class and prestige spell advancement

[Lost in books]

When you have the chameleon class and you add a PrC that increases "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" or, spells per day "+1 level of existing class", does it work with it? and is there a difference between "Spellcasting class" and "Existing Class?"

1. Some people argue that Chameleon is not a real spellcasting class because its spellcasting ability comes from a class feature and not standard ability.

My interpretation is that the chameleon does have a spell progression chart (unlike the factotum) and regardless of how they get access to it this class is a spellcasting class.

Now if because they gain the spellcasting ability from the PrC chameleon as a special feature, I would agree that spellcasting class can be interpreted by the letter of "+1 level of existing spellcasting class".

Now because of the spell progression chart on the class description of the chameleon, I believe that if the PrC says "+1 lvl of existing class" it applies because it is targeting the progression on the chart up to it's maximum.

I believe that Chameleon is a spellcasting class with a spell progression so also Practiced Spellcaster should apply, unless it is not considered a spellcasting class.

What are your thoughts?
1. Does a class that advances spellcasting work with Chameleon?
2. Does a class that advances an existing level for spells work with Chameleon?
3. Does Practiced Spellcaster work with Chameleon?

Any errata, books, rules, or Sage post as reference will be greatly appreciated.

[Answerer]

As far as I know, "spellcasting class" is not actually defined anywhere; the authors took it to be self-evident, even though cases like the Chameleon do exist. If nothing else, a sidebar along with the Chameleon class would have been appropriate.

Anyway, RAW, there is no answer. It's entirely subjective whether or not it counts. It's a class that can cast spells; is that enough? You're not going to find any official stance on this, I think.

I'd guess that a majority of tables would not allow it. I probably wouldn't actually care much and would allow it if a player asked for it.

[Lost in books]

So general rules do not discriminate per RAW so it is more of a DMs call?

[Answerer]

Yes, I think it's basically entirely up to the DM. The rules never say whether or not Chameleon counts, and never gives an explicit definition that we could use to judge it.

[hex0]

Since Chameleon doesn't have a 'spells section', says you can't use the class abilities to qualify for anything, and only cast spells through a class feature that is optional to use...I'd say that Chameleon is a no go for advancing through other classes.

[Lost in books]

@ Hex0

I understand there is no spell list, but my question is because Chameleon does have a spell per day table which some PrC say "gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the level."
So it is not about a spell list progression but a spells per level one in their table. Or am I understanding completely wrong?

[Cranthis]

I'm going to agree with DM decision. It technically has spells per day, and then you use your aptitudes to determine what kinds of spells, if any at all. But the spell slots do not disappear, they just go unused. So by my own logic, yes, "+1 of existing casting class" counts for chameleon. But it would still be dm call.

[prufock]

It's a bit open for interpretation. Personally I feel that "spellcasting class" is a class that has "Spells" listed in their class features, which Chameleon does not. I'm not sure if that's the RAW definition, but it makes sense to me. Chameleons have Aptitude Focus instead, through which they emulate spellcasting. Heck, I would even prefer if it worked, because it fits a character build that I want to do (Binder/Chameleon/Anima Mage). I just don't think Aptitude Focus = Spellcasting.

That said, you could always make a deal with the DM.

[Lost in books]

@ Cranthis and Prufok

Oh well. The thing with DM calls is that different DMs see things well, differently. That makes it harder to create a build because I don't like to argue about rules and I try to make fun characters that don't follow the full "optimized mode" but still can hold their own. i like to make characters with seldom used classes. Since most games I have played end around level 12-15 i just try to make something that can shine for the duration. My build right now will be at 10th lvl:

Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Dusk blade 3/ Chameleon 3/ Human Paragon +2.

Human paragon at first gives me the skills necessary to qualify for Chameleon when I get there.

So class feats total 3 + human 1+ levels 4. For total of 8 feats.

Ability points +2 levels, +2 paragon= total 4

Able to cast 3rd lvl spells at Level 8th and 4th lvl spells at Level 10th either arcane or divine depending on focus for the day but mostly arcane to maximize the Duskblade's channeling.

With this progression I get the Duskblade to cast lvl 3 spells one lvl sooner than a straight DB build, and lvl 4 spells 3 levels earlier.

And with the floating feat I'll use it to write scrolls in downtime to supplement the party.

I think this build is pretty fun, diverse and NOT broken.

Any thoughts?

[Cranthis]

I like the build. Its good for how you want to do things. I still think that you get more spellcasting, just explain to your dm that just because you arent using the slots, doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Answerer]

It's a bit open for interpretation. Personally I feel that "spellcasting class" is a class that has "Spells" listed in their class features, which Chameleon does not. I'm not sure if that's the RAW definition, but it makes sense to me. Chameleons have Aptitude Focus instead, through which they emulate spellcasting. Heck, I would even prefer if it worked, because it fits a character build that I want to do (Binder/Chameleon/Anima Mage). I just don't think Aptitude Focus = Spellcasting.

That said, you could always make a deal with the DM.

I'd be inclined to agree if the class feature were "Spellcasting," since then you could say "spellcasting class = class with 'Spellcasting' class feature," but since it's "Spells" you already have to inject a little bit of your own rules there, which I don't think is strict-RAW valid (i.e. I think you can only get away with that as a direct rules statement when you have a one-to-one correspondence between terms and don't need to do any kind of translation, since that translation is yours and not a part of the rules). Ultimately, I don't think there's any way to rule it that doesn't involve injecting your own rules on just what it means.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ultimately it boils down to "RAW = maybe."

Ask your DM because any other answer is just an interpretation that really doesn't matter at your table.

[Tytalus]

Given that the Chameleon specifically says that "You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.", it stands to reason that it doesn't count as a spellcasting class for the purpose of (1) qualifying for a prestige class which progresses spellcasting and (2) selecting which class to apply the spellcasting progression to.

[Cranthis]

iven that the Chameleon specifically says that "You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.", it stands to reason that it doesn't count as a spellcasting class for the purpose of (1) qualifying for a prestige class which progresses spellcasting and (2) selecting which class to apply the spellcasting progression to.

The spells per day are not granted by anything of the stated things. You just can't use the spell slots if you do not use the focuses. They are still there. Just empty.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I honestly don't see a problem with it, from a balance perspective.

By advancing chameleon's casting that way you're not advancing any of its other class-features; mimic class feature, ability boon, and aptitude focus (uses per/day). On top of that, you'll only be advancing one version of its casting since many of the +1 casting PrC's specify either arcane or divine.

If you want to essentially give up 4/5 of chameleon so you can use the remaining slow-progression spellcasting like a champ, go for it.

[Answerer]

Given that the Chameleon specifically says that "You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.", it stands to reason that it doesn't count as a spellcasting class for the purpose of (1) qualifying for a prestige class which progresses spellcasting and (2) selecting which class to apply the spellcasting progression to.

(1) is absolutely true.

(2) has no basis in the actual rules. You might think that those two things are tied together, but there is no rule anywhere in the game (that I am aware of) that makes them the same thing. There are, in fact, many cases where a class cannot qualify for a prestige class that could advance its features. Classes that require arcane or divine spellcasting specifically, but then advance any spellcasting. Any spellcasting-advancing class that requires spells of a certain level, for a Dragonfire Adept or Warlock. Etc.

[prufock]

On top of that, you'll only be advancing one version of its casting since many of the +1 casting PrC's specify either arcane or divine.

But not all of them. There are classes that advance either, which means a Chameleon base becomes something of a Theurge-that-is-not-a-Theurge. Whether that's overpowered or not will depend on the group.

I'd be inclined to agree if the class feature were "Spellcasting," since then you could say "spellcasting class = class with 'Spellcasting' class feature," but since it's "Spells" you already have to inject a little bit of your own rules there<...>. Ultimately, I don't think there's any way to rule it that doesn't involve injecting your own rules on just what it means.

I agree, as I said that's my interpretation. Of course, in practice I'm a pretty lenient DM. I allow pretty much any source material in my games that the players want to take, reserving the right to veto things on a case-by-case basis if it's overpowered. I probably WOULD allow a PrC to advance Chameleon casting, provided it wasn't used for some abusive loophole or completely unbalance the party composition.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But not all of them. There are classes that advance either, which means a Chameleon base becomes something of a Theurge-that-is-not-a-Theurge. Whether that's overpowered or not will depend on the group.


I agree, as I said that's my interpretation. Of course, in practice I'm a pretty lenient DM. I allow pretty much any source material in my games that the players want to take, reserving the right to veto things on a case-by-case basis if it's overpowered. I probably WOULD allow a PrC to advance Chameleon casting, provided it wasn't used for some abusive loophole or completely unbalance the party composition.

The theurge that's not a theurge thing is kinda marginal at best. Few, if any, of the classes that don't specify one or the other have class-features that significanlty improve the casting and you still have to pick either divine or arcane on a given day, since you've almost certainly got only the one aptitude focus use, and arguably because you certainly don't have the dual aptitude class-feature unless you're epic.

[Lost in books]

Wow, it does suck when some things are so open for interpretation. just to clear it up, the reason I was asking about Chameleon's spell progression is because since I doubt we will get past level 10-12 on this campaign I wanted to get that extra feat and ability boost from Human paragon while maintaining the casting progression of Chameleon. Because those would be spells to enhance my repertoire as i will in effect play as a duskblade. The benefit is that I am not restricted to the duskblade arcane list and if needed I can boost by casting divine. i know it probably was best to keep it straight chameleon but if i wasn't loosing the spell progression by taking the levels of paragon I would not mind loosing the ability boon and second aptitude focus per day and my saves will be slightly better.

If you read Human paragon it just states spellcasting class and in the table it shows spells per day as advancing 1 level on the class which I see as advancing the place on the chameleon table. the table bonus is indifferent to what focus you are using that day, only the spells slot available when you gain a focus. I am not using anything to qualify for a PrC, just using the paragon's benefit to maintain Chameleon.

Edit:
@ Kelb Pantera:
Epic for dual focus? If my math is right i can get dual focus at 14th level if after the last paragon level I take 4 more chameleon levels and be able to access 6th level spells. Is this correct?:

1 human Paragon/ 1 Fighter/ 3 Duskblade/ 3 Chameleon/ +2 Human paragon/ +4 Chameleon... this equals 14 right?