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    Default Gaols and Giants - Skills

    This thread is for the discussion of skills. First up to discuss:

    Grouping: should we make groups of skills, ala Shadowrun, that can be bought as one pack?

    Eliminating: are there skills that are unnecesssary or too niche?

    For reference, these are all D&D core skills:

    Appraise
    Balance
    Bluff
    Climb
    Concentration
    Craft
    Decipher Script
    Diplomacy
    Disable Device
    Disguise
    Escape Artist
    Forgery
    Gather Information
    Handle Animal
    Heal
    Hide
    Intimidate
    Jump
    Knowledge
    Listen
    Move Silently
    Open Lock
    Perform
    Profession
    Ride
    Search
    Sense Motive
    Sleight of Hand
    Speak Language
    Spellcraft
    Spot
    Survival
    Swim
    Tumble
    Use Magic Device
    Use Rope

    Any my personal comments on them:
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    Appraise: I've played for years, and I'm pretty sure I've seen this one used exactly once, for a check that, ultimately, did nothing. Either we give this one a lot more functionality (identifying magic items, perhaps), or we drop it. Shove it into craft or knowledge.

    Balance: situational. I'd imagine it's campaign dependent. I've seen one or the other check in swashbuckling fights or rooftop chases.

    Bluff: Probably the single biggest skill in my current campaign. I'd imagine my characters do more lying than actual talking.

    Climb: Rarely used. I think my campaign got into flying territory before we ever had to climb anything. But it's a city campaign, so you can usaully organize a ladder or find some stairs. In the wilderness or some ruin, it would probably see more use.


    Concentration: Quite big on spellcasters, rather useless on everyone else. I think Pathfinder made this one an inherent feature of magic, which I could see happening.

    Craft: is a background thing. I like having it, just so you can say "This craftsman is much better than that craftsman" and attach a number to it,but I don't think I've ever seen any character use it much in game other than for prerequisites.

    Decipher Script: very niche. Rarely comes up, but really, really good when it does, if used right. I'm unsure about this one.

    Diplomacy: see bluff. This is a major one.

    Disable Device: once? Maybe? I don't like using traps as a DM, might be different for others. Shove it into open lock.

    Disguise: often, and with pleasure. Personally, one of my favourites, all the characters I play just have to have some shapeshifting.

    Escape Artist: rarely, but good when it comes up. Problematic, I guess this is one to merge.

    Forgery: extremely powerful. Useless in the wrong kind of campaign.

    Gather Information: I don't like it, personally. This one should be replaced by a Knowledge: local check, some talking, some bribing and maybe a diplomacy check or two.

    Handle Animal: animals can be quite useful at the lower levels. I've seen trained hawks, dogs, monkeys, rats and other critters all used very well.

    Heal: this one can't go. It just needs to be expanded to do a bit more when compared to healing magic.

    Hide: certainly.

    Intimidate: invaluable, I think. Might need some expansion.

    Jump: There was a rooftop chase once or twice. What else is there? Pits? If anyone actually took this, I'd be tempted to throw some chasms into the campaign just so they wouldn't have wasted their points.

    Knowledge: oh yes. Can't lose this. What needs to change here is the monster identification DCs. Base them on the monster's rarity, not it's power.

    Listen: has to stay.

    Move Silently: same.

    Open Lock: see disable device, but more often used.

    Perform: I like having a few points in a few different ones. A gentleman has to know how to dance and read a few poems.

    Profession: see craft, except this is used even less. Like craft, this is something that comes up in backgrounds, not in play.

    Ride: probably merged with handle animal? Some people really like their mounts, I've noticed.

    Search: not much to say about this one. It stays.

    Sense Motive: another one without much dispute.

    Sleight of Hand: I love it. Comes up often.

    Speak Language: clunky, as a skill. A different solution, perhaps.

    Spellcraft: merge with knowledge: arcana?

    Spot: yup.

    Survival: yup.

    Swim: would come up if there was water.

    Tumble: a one-use skill. needs to be expanded or merged.

    Use Magic Device: too good. My suggestion is making it a charisma check everyone can attempt with magic items.

    Use Rope: too specialized.
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    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    I think Pathfinder did very well on combining Decipher Script, Forgery and Speak Language to form the Linguistics skill.

    Hide and Move Silently are prettymuch never used seperately, so I'd combine those two.
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I think Pathfinder did very well on combining Decipher Script, Forgery and Speak Language to form the Linguistics skill.
    Actually, that is the worst thing on the skills end of all that Pathfinder does.

    Decipher Script and Forgery are opposed skills, Forgery has more in common with the Disguise check then Decipher Script, being that Forgery is (while not accurately named as such), one's ability to write or forge official documents, as well as setting the DC for impersonating a person via identity theft.
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    I'm all for condensing the list fairly dramatically, and then keeping specializations open. So, for instance, you can take Athletics, then have +Swim -Climb or something applied on top of it.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Let's take a step back and look at skill categories. As I see it, there are four things skills do:
    • Physical Actions
    • Mental Actions
    • Interaction with People
    • Interaction with the Environment


    On the current list, we can organize them like this:

    Physical Actions
    • Balance
    • Climb
    • Escape Artist
    • Hide
    • Jump
    • Move Silently
    • Ride
    • Sleight of Hand
    • Swim
    • Tumble
    • Use Rope


    Mental Actions
    • Appraise
    • Concentration
    • Craft
    • Decipher Script
    • Forgery
    • Heal
    • Knowledge
    • Perform
    • Profession
    • Speak Language
    • Spellcraft
    • Use Magic Device


    Interactions with People
    • Bluff
    • Diplomacy
    • Disguise
    • Gather Information
    • Handle Animal (I know, not quite people, but close enough)
    • Intimidate
    • Sense Motive


    Interactions with the Environment
    • Disable Device
    • Listen
    • Open Lock
    • Search
    • Spot
    • Survival


    Now, it occurs to me that it would be good to have an equal number of skills in each category. Giving us a condensed skill list to be something like:

    Physical Actions
    • Acrobatics (Jumping, flipping, balancing, tumbling, etc)
    • Athletics (Climbing, jumping, running, swimming, etc)
    • Sleight of Hand
    • Stealth


    Mental Actions
    • Knowledge
    • Linguistics (new languages, figuring out languages, forgery, spotting forgeries, etc)
    • Heal
    • Profession (Covers craft and performance skills too)


    Interactions with People
    • Deception
    • Persuasion
    • Insight
    • Intimidation


    Interactions with the Environment
    • Devices (lockpicking, traps)
    • Investigation
    • Perception
    • Survival


    Now, those are fairly broad skills, many of them, covering multiple roles. So what I propose is that we steal a page from Exalted and introduce specialties. Here's how it'd work.

    We'd have class skills and cross-class skills, just like 3.5, except that both types would be purchased at a cost of one point per rank. Your ranks in class skills would be limited to the medium progression, while ranks in cross-class skills would be limited to the poor progression.

    BUT, you can also buy Specialties, at the cost of 1 or 2 ranks per point. Specialties would stack with skills, and would allow you to increase your ranks in a specific aspect of a skill to the next progression's cap (level+3 for class skills, 2/3 level +3 for cross-class).

    For example, Eldan the 10th level bard has 10 ranks in Deception, the maximum allowed for a class skill. However, he also has a 3-point Specialty in "Disguise," granting him a +3 bonus to Deception rolls involving disguising himself.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Am i the only person on these boards who understands that Linguistics is the worst conglomerate skill immaginable?
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    You're probably not the only one who thinks that, but considering Forgery has a lot to do with language and nothing with altering the way you look, I would never couple it with Disguise. Plus, Forgery and Decipher Script are already both Int-based, whereas Disguise, like the social skills, is Cha-based, so it makes sense mechanically.

    Grod's grouping sounds good for a rough start, though I don't agree with the rest.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-10-15 at 04:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Appraise: I've played for years, and I'm pretty sure I've seen this one used exactly once, for a check that, ultimately, did nothing. Either we give this one a lot more functionality (identifying magic items, perhaps), or we drop it. Shove it into craft or knowledge.
    I'd say combine Appraise, Disable Device, and Open Lock into a generic Devices skill: you can identify the quality, composition, and strongest/weakest points of items, which lets you break, disable, or jury-rig them as needed.

    Balance: situational. I'd imagine it's campaign dependent. I've seen one or the other check in swashbuckling fights or rooftop chases.
    Balance is basically a skill tax to avoid being flat-footed while balancing, and it's too situational otherwise. I'd fold it into Tumble.

    Concentration: Quite big on spellcasters, rather useless on everyone else. I think Pathfinder made this one an inherent feature of magic, which I could see happening.
    If you want to expand rather than eliminate it, you could draw inspiration from psionic focus, Autohypnosis, and the Combat Form feat line. Use Concentration to take 10 with Dex-based skills under pressure, improve defensive fighting/Combat Expertise/etc. bonuses against a single opponent, resist combat maneuvers, act while disabled, and other "mind over matter" abilities.

    Decipher Script: very niche. Rarely comes up, but really, really good when it does, if used right. I'm unsure about this one.

    Forgery: extremely powerful. Useless in the wrong kind of campaign.

    Speak Language: clunky, as a skill. A different solution, perhaps.
    I'd combine these three into a Linguistics skill a la PF, but instead of learning new languages, you'd be able to make checks to convey simple messages, mimic accents, and that sort of things. That makes the various learn-X-language or add-X-to-bonus-languages abilities more useful and lets you have creatures that don't share a language with the party without requiring magic to get along, and folding Forgery into a more generally-useful skill would reduce its power somewhat as now people might actually take ranks in it.

    Jump: There was a rooftop chase once or twice. What else is there? Pits? If anyone actually took this, I'd be tempted to throw some chasms into the campaign just so they wouldn't have wasted their points.
    I'd just get rid of the skill, personally, and have a flatter jumping distance based on speed, size, Str, and Con. If you're going to be jumping over pits and such most of the variation in Jump doesn't matter because pits tend to come in 5-foot width increments, and being able to jump a 20-foot pit one day and missing a 5-foot jump the next doesn't make much sense.

    Search: not much to say about this one. It stays.
    I'd disagree. What is Search beyond a bunch of methodical, repeated Spot checks? The only real difference is using Int for Search and Wis for Spot, but that isn't set in stone given that there's been discussion about changing up key abilities for certain skills or allowing a choice of multiple stats for a given skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat
    Actually, that is the worst thing on the skills end of all that Pathfinder does.

    Decipher Script and Forgery are opposed skills, Forgery has more in common with the Disguise check then Decipher Script, being that Forgery is (while not accurately named as such), one's ability to write or forge official documents, as well as setting the DC for impersonating a person via identity theft.
    Decipher Script and Forgery are two sides of the same coin. Both require knowing about physical aspects of writing (writing materials, medium, handwriting, etc.), writing conventions (alphabets, vocabulary, idioms, etc.), and interpretation (ciphers and codes, making things more or less archaic, interpolating missing information, etc.). The difference is that one is used to deceive and one is used to reveal, but someone who knows about one would logically know plenty about the other.

    Yes, Forgery can be used in conjunction with Disguise, and yes they're opposed, but Bluff can be used in conjunction with Diplomacy and you can oppose a skill with itself (such as with, say, Forgery), so those aren't really good objections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight
    I'm all for condensing the list fairly dramatically, and then keeping specializations open. So, for instance, you can take Athletics, then have +Swim -Climb or something applied on top of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
    Now, those are fairly broad skills, many of them, covering multiple roles. So what I propose is that we steal a page from Exalted and introduce specialties.
    Seconded. Grod's proposed list looks good for the most part, though I don't know if I like Profession as a "mental action"--it's supposed to be a bunch of background training that could be applied to a bunch of things. For instance, Profession (Sailor) could involve the physical actions of knot-tying and balancing on a ship's deck or rigging, the mental actions of knowing about the weather and identifying ship designs, the people-interaction actions of working with/commanding a crew and catching up with gossip on shore leave, and the environment-interaction actions of navigating at sea and repairing a ship's equipment.

    I'd personally either make Profession a skill that augments other skills by giving synergy bonuses, replacing certain skills in certain circumstances (e.g. Profession [Merchant] replaces Diplomacy for haggling), and so forth, or replace Profession with a feat similar to Jack of All Trades that gives virtual skill ranks in a certain number of skills related to your background (something like "gain 1/2 level virtual ranks in X skills" or "pick one Craft, one Knowledge, and one Perform and gain X virtual ranks in each" or whatever).

    To replace it and keep the numerical symmetry, how about splitting Knowledge up into Lore (historical/long-term/secret knowledge, covering ancient or legendary creatures, artifacts, gods and the planes, political history, lineages, and such) and Knowledge (current/popular/common knowledge, covering local fauna, minor magic items, religions and temples, geography, current nobility, and such)? It would help break up an exceptionally broad skill, and it would provide a nice distinction between the hedge mage that can identify spells and the socialite that can tell you who's who among the kingdom's nobility on the one hand and the arcane scholar that knows more about the theory of magic and the diplomat that knows more about the broader political trends on the other.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2012-10-15 at 04:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    There's one thing I was thinking aobut in the races section: backgrounds.

    Many races, as written in the players handbook include features that are clearly cultural, not genetic, like the various bonuses to killing giants there are in core. Should we make cultural/professional backgrounds? Having a profession background would then give +2 to relevant skills, such as profession: sailor to balancing, use rope, climbing and navigation on ships.
    I solemnly swear,
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    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    I'd like a few more categories, too. How about:

    Ancient Lore: History, Legendary creatures, distant lands
    Arcane Knowledge: Planes, magic, magical creatures
    Practical Knowledge: Customs, religions, geography, architecture
    Acrobatics: Tumbling, Climbing, Balancing
    Athletics: Swimming, Jumping, Endurance?
    Perception: Vision, Hearing, more specialized ones like smell, touch, taste (identify chemicals, find poison)
    Stealth: hiding, moving silently
    Linguistics: Deciphering, piecing together languages, forgery, calligraphy
    Mechanics: Opening locks, appraising, repairing items, disabling traps and mechanical items,crafting
    Social Skills: bluffing, diplomacy, sense motive
    Survival: handle animal, ride, navigation, tracking, foraging
    Skullduggery: Disguise, sleight of hand, others like that.

    Then we give everyone three or four to begin, and the option to specialize into one sub-area for a +2 bonus. Skill monkeys get more specializations.

    and we can still leave the option open to have different sub-areas key off different attributes. Picking a lock is Mechanics (dex), while appraising an item is mechanics (intelligence). Lying is social (charisma), while sense motive is social (wisdom).
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-10-15 at 05:07 PM.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    and we can still leave the option open to have different sub-areas key off different attributes. Picking a lock is Mechanics (dex), while appraising an item is mechanics (intelligence). Lying is social (charisma), while sense motive is social (wisdom).
    To keep things simple, I'd tie using different attributes to specialization. If you just have ranks in Mechanics you use Dex for everything, but if you choose to specialize in Mechanics [Appraise] you can use your Int for that area if it's higher. It's not as granular or realistic, but it would encourage specialization by giving it an extra perk, and it means you can easily write down all of your modifiers on your sheet beforehand instead of having to enumerate every single subskill or add in your stat on the fly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Fair enough ,that should work. Any comment on the areas I suggested?
    I solemnly swear,
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    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    There's one thing I was thinking aobut in the races section: backgrounds.

    Many races, as written in the players handbook include features that are clearly cultural, not genetic, like the various bonuses to killing giants there are in core. Should we make cultural/professional backgrounds? Having a profession background would then give +2 to relevant skills, such as profession: sailor to balancing, use rope, climbing and navigation on ships.
    Something that might be useful?
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Ooh, I remember that one. I meant to look at it.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I'd like a few more categories, too. How about:

    Ancient Lore: History, Legendary creatures, distant lands
    Arcane Knowledge: Planes, magic, magical creatures
    Practical Knowledge: Customs, religions, geography, architecture
    Acrobatics: Tumbling, Climbing, Balancing
    Athletics: Swimming, Jumping, Endurance?
    Perception: Vision, Hearing, more specialized ones like smell, touch, taste (identify chemicals, find poison)
    Stealth: hiding, moving silently
    Linguistics: Deciphering, piecing together languages, forgery, calligraphy
    Mechanics: Opening locks, appraising, repairing items, disabling traps and mechanical items,crafting
    Social Skills: bluffing, diplomacy, sense motive
    Survival: handle animal, ride, navigation, tracking, foraging
    Skullduggery: Disguise, sleight of hand, others like that.

    Then we give everyone three or four to begin, and the option to specialize into one sub-area for a +2 bonus. Skill monkeys get more specializations.

    and we can still leave the option open to have different sub-areas key off different attributes. Picking a lock is Mechanics (dex), while appraising an item is mechanics (intelligence). Lying is social (charisma), while sense motive is social (wisdom).
    That is exactly the same number of skills that I proposed, but leaving out things like Intimidate, Sleight of Hand, and Heal. Also, I feel like a lot of the combinations are somewhat... weird. How is climbing an acrobatic action? How are Disguise and Sleight of Hand related? I do like the Knowledge split, though-- works well with specializations.

    PairO'Dice, you're right about Profession. It should probably never be more than a Specialization. Let's take it and knowledge and split them into Lore (magic, history, the planes, etc) and Experience (politics, culture, etc). Not sure if they need more granular subdivisions, or if we can get by with Specializations. It'd be nice if we could do the latter...

    For backgrounds, I feel like when we design the races, we should have a block of custom-specific attributes and bonuses that can be easily changed-- a feat and a skill bonus or something.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    That is exactly the same number of skills that I proposed, but leaving out things like Intimidate, Sleight of Hand, and Heal. Also, I feel like a lot of the combinations are somewhat... weird. How is climbing an acrobatic action? How are Disguise and Sleight of Hand related? I do like the Knowledge split, though-- works well with specializations.

    PairO'Dice, you're right about Profession. It should probably never be more than a Specialization. Let's take it and knowledge and split them into Lore (magic, history, the planes, etc) and Experience (politics, culture, etc). Not sure if they need more granular subdivisions, or if we can get by with Specializations. It'd be nice if we could do the latter...

    For backgrounds, I feel like when we design the races, we should have a block of custom-specific attributes and bonuses that can be easily changed-- a feat and a skill bonus or something.
    Oh, right. At first, I thought you only introduced four skills. Heal would have to find a place. Disguise and Sleight of Hand just belong in the sort of same area of expertise to me.
    I solemnly swear,
    To devote my life and abilities,
    In defence of the United Nations of Earth,
    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Oh, right. At first, I thought you only introduced four skills. Heal would have to find a place. Disguise and Sleight of Hand just belong in the sort of same area of expertise to me.
    They're archtypically similar, but... disguise involves preparation-- getting the right clothes, wigs, etc-- and a lot of acting ability-- copying mannerisms, expressions, etc. In other words... bluffing someone into believing that you're a different person. Sleight of Hand involves having nimble fingers. Completely unrelated skills. We might fold it in with Open Lock and Disable Device and call the whole thing Thievery, but that's probably getting a bit too general.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-10-15 at 07:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    With Performance, maybe?
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    With Performance, maybe?
    Performance is being pushed back to a Specialty, along with the rest of the former Profession options.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Hmm. Did a semi-organized chart... my list is missing four useful skills: Concentration, Handle Animal, Ride, and UMD.

    UMD, we were talking about replacing, so that's no biggie. Concentration can take on Autohypnosis' functions and become more useful for non-casters, or it could possibly be ditched altogether. Handle Animal and Ride could probably be merged, I suppose, although they're a little too distinct for me to be entirely happy with that idea.

    Also, if we add Concentration and Animals, I think we should break Knowledge down a bit more into Lore, Expertise, and Occult (Eldan's three categories with new names). That takes us up to a nice 15 skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    We should be fine then. I think that works.

    Now, how exactly would specializing work? How would you pay for it, and what is the benefit?
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    If I might chip in?

    I propose that whatever you end up using for spot/listen/perception, whatever, these are class skills (or whatever is used instead) for EVERYONE, EVER.

    It struck me as weird that all classes got Craft, but not Spot/Listen.
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Ah, we discussed that in the main thread.

    There won't be any class skills. Everyone can take whatever they want.
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    To defend the Constitution of Man,
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    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Ah, we discussed that in the main thread.

    There won't be any class skills. Everyone can take whatever they want.
    We discussed it, but didn't decide. I, for one, am very much in favor of retaining class skills. All skills should be bought at the same cost, but your caps should be higher for class skills.

    Perception will 100% for sure be on every class list.

    Specialties... was my description unclear? If a skills is a class skill, you can buy ranks up to the medium progression using skill points as normal. Cross-class skills can go up to the poor progression. Then you can buy specialties, again using skill points. Specialties are basically untyped (I know, I know...) bonuses to a particular aspect of a skill. Your specialty bonus plus your ranks in the base skill can't exceed a good progression (for a class skill) or a medium progression (for a cross-class skill). You can also get specialties in things that don't really appear on the skill list, like crafting, in which case you can buy ranks up to the poor progression.



    To achieve superhuman skill feats, we were going to use skill tricks, yes? They're based on base skill ranks. So, if we accept skills at being capped at the medium progression (going up to 18 ranks at 20th level), how about we have three "tiers' of skill tricks?

    5 skill ranks: heroic. Neat tricks that are within the realm of human possibility.
    10 skill ranks: legendary. These are near- or fully-superhuman feats of skill and daring.
    15 skill ranks: epic. These are flat-out superhuman abilities, based more on epic skill uses than what bodies can actually do.

    Each skill should have at least one, and preferably 2-3 per tier. Skill tricks would be obtained by spending one or two skill points to learn a trick.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Please no. Skill tricks were a pretty bad idea to begin with. We can do something *like* skill tricks, maybe, but I think they should be gained just like that, without additional resource investment.
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    To devote my life and abilities,
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    To defend the Constitution of Man,
    And to further the universal rights of all sentient life.
    From the depths of the pacific, to the edge of the galaxy.
    For as long as I shall live.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Turn most skill tricks into parts of skills normally, and make some feats into a new kind of "skill tricks"?
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Please no. Skill tricks were a pretty bad idea to begin with. We can do something *like* skill tricks, maybe, but I think they should be gained just like that, without additional resource investment.
    I guess we could have them granted automatically. I was thinking that it'd be nice to offer choice.

    Also, when I say "skill tricks" I don't mean the crappy 'limited use, worse than a feat' things that 3.5 has. Legendary tricks that replace low-level spells like Spider Climb; Epic tricks should be flat-out superhuman abilities, allowing you to literally leap tall buildings in a single bound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    I have yet to read through it myself, but I've heard great things about the Tome of Prowess, so maybe that'd be worth checking out for this.
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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Am i the only person on these boards who understands that Linguistics is the worst conglomerate skill immaginable?
    No. I'm against all combined skills.

    The Big Problem 1: Every class gets too many skill points as it is and skill DC are not high enough in a normal game. By about 3rd level and easily by 5th level, most skills become useless. A character will have so many pluses, that to roll is pointless as the character will automatically make the roll. The 10th level rogue can easily have 13 ranks, plus 5 from dexterity, 2 from at least one feat, 2 from at least one magic item and 2 from at least one more source like masterwork tools in Open Locks, for a total of 24-25 at least. So average and good locks are automatic. And it does not take much more effort to boost that 25 to 30 or 40 and make all locks pointless.

    The Big Problem 2: Optimizers and Roll Playing. This type of player is just playing the numbers. They think that automatically winning every single roll and DC is fun. I don't get it myself, if you know you can't loose: why bother?

    So the end result if you combine skills is that you give way more skill points for each character to use. Now they have the 'infinite plus' in every skill and automatically make any skill roll.

    But all that aside, combining skills just does not make sense. Take Hide and Move Silently. Lots of people like to combine the two into stealth. As if anything sneaky both hides and is quiet. But that is not true. You don't always need to do both at the same time. For example, a character might want to walk across some gravel road. The character is not hiding as they are out in the open, but they don't want the nose to attract the guards in the nearby shack. So why should 'hide' help you here? It's worse for combining Spot and Listen in to Awesome Senses or whatever.

    And finally, you really need to step outside yourself when you do something like this. You might have never used appraise in a game, but I'll bet several hundred other gamers have...

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    Default Re: Gaols and Giants - Skills

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    No. I'm against all combined skills.
    I think the opposite effect is far less desireable though. You also seem to have a very specific taste that I rarely come across, so this may not be the fix for you.
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