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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Dragon Slaying Advice

    So, I am currently playing a 3 player E6 game, and we need a solution to a Mature Adult White Dragon, which also has some extra caster levels. We have tried dealing with it twice, first using glibness to get it to go away, and the second time trying to use solid fog to hold it in place, so we could kill it. Both times ended up with us running away. I would like a plan that does not involve a plot device. Just to make it more interesting, we are in a dungeon, so we can't buy more items.
    Relevant house rules: Versitile spellcaster can give access to 4th level spells.
    The party consists of
    A level 6 Dread necro(cha 21, dmm split ray and empower, has versatile spellcaster)
    A level 6 beguiler(int 24, has versatile spellcaster)
    A level rogue 1/SA fighter 1/4 sword sage
    The Dread necro's familiar, who is a warforged with a magical adamantium greatsword

    Does anyone have any ideas hat give us a decent chance of victory?

    EDIT: Solution has been found: Summon some Allips, buff them, keep them alive, and use them to kill the dragon with wis damage.
    Last edited by Archmage1; 2012-10-15 at 09:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Interesting uhm....familiar.

    Anyway, typical dragon fighting advice goes as follows-
    Don't.
    Really don't. Especially not when it's that big compared to you.
    Okay, really? You're doing this?
    *sigh*
    They're big. Attack it from small spaces and have a way to deal with its breath weapon.
    They're generally slow. Target its reflex saves and use anything you can to deny it its Dex to AC. Double points if you can name (and use) the quintessential dragon-slaying spell.
    Seriously. Just don't do it.
    Buff the Beguiler's DCs somehow. If you can get glitterdust and other debuffs on it, it'll go down a lot faster.
    Don't EVER fight it on its home turf. You will die. Horribly.
    Seriously, I recommend against this (at least at your level).
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    See if your dm will let you hire a level 7 spellthief. Then you have a way to deal with the dragons spells/spell like abilities, other than that, and probably with that, you are going to get pounded.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    The Beguiler's DC's are as buffed as they are going to get, sadly. As far as I could find, we don't actually have any way to target the reflex saves, and no shivering touch(even if we had it, DM would probably rule that a white dragon is immune to it.

    Reading your post, it seems that we will be relying on plot devices, as we can't fight it anywhere other than it's home turf(a large ice cavern), deal with the breath weapon, or buff the DC's anymore. Still, it was worth a try.

    Sadly, the hiring a spellthief is a no-go, as there is, I believe one npc higher than 6 in the game, and he is... unavailable.
    Last edited by Archmage1; 2012-10-15 at 04:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Can you get allies? Any local Frost Giants around you could convince by "alowing them" (killing them after the fact) to take half the hoard? Mind getting, say, a local anyone to run around and distract the beast? A mule loaded with explosives is a classic dragonslaying trick.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Okay, I'll be honest. Three level six adventurers against a buffed mature white dragon will die. It's somewhat of a miracle that you haven't died already. The only way you might stand a chance is if your Dread Necro has the Shivering Touch spell. Even then, you better pray that you win initiative because once he attacks, you will all die.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Sadly, we already killed the frost giants(was a good idea at the time, got 5k xp out of it, but we are in a dungeon, so we can't spend gold.

    So far, out survival has been by hiding in the nearby ruins, but we will need to leave eventually

    So, looks like a job for the plot device.
    Last edited by Archmage1; 2012-10-15 at 04:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    I don't know how far into the 'Epic' portion of E6 you are, but don't be too surprised if you have to resort to 'plot device' to take it down- a dragon of that age category is tougher than anything you're really expected to take down as an E6 party, AFAIK, especially a short-handed one.

    Your best bet, IMO, would be to turn all of your 3rd level slots into Split Ray Enervations and hope you get lucky with beating the dragon's Spell Resistance. If you can land a few negative levels, you'll have a much better chance of following up with other spells and your melee party members might actually be able to stand next to the dragon without instantly evaporating.. actually, that SR is the dragon's best defense against you. Otherwise, 4 Enervation rays (2x Split Ray Enervations) plus a Split Ray of Exhaustion would leave it pretty helpless, not to mention the Bestow Curses, Blindness/Deafness, and other debuffs you could pile onto it after the negative levels torpedo its saving throws.

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    All right then. Next time, we will hope for luck. If not, the beguiler will probably end up dying to ensure the parties escape. Which will be sad for me, seeing as I am the beguiler...
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Obviously if you're slinging solid fogs, you have access to some non-beguiler/dread necro spells, so I'll list a few that have been helpful to me. Of course, since you're in a dungeon, there's a good chance you won't have access to most of these, but still...

    1. Bands of Steel. Excellent range, SR: No, and it targets Reflex. Even if the dragon makes its Reflex save, it's entangled, which makes it difficult to fly. Remember, as dragons are not great fliers, they must spend at least 50% of their speed moving forward in order to stay aloft. If they're entangled, they get a pretty decent debuff to Dex, and get their speed cut in half.

    2. Similarly, tanglefoot bags are nice, although you'll have to be pretty close to the dragon to use them unless you've got Launch Item.

    3. Scale Weakening (from Draconomicon). It's SR: Yes, but it removes a good chunk of the dragon's natural armor for 10 minutes/level for a second level spell. That's a pretty nice debuff - between that and the dex penalty from being entangled, you can drop its AC to around 20, which is much more reasonable.

    4. Con damage. With 21 hit die, targeting Con is going to be a very effective way to weaken it. Cloudkill is unfortunately out of reach for you as a fifth-level spell, but there are some other effects that might work. Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt (Unapproachable East) is the only other 4th-level or below spell that comes to mind... it damages both Con and Strength with a reflex (!) save for half.
    Last edited by Piggy Knowles; 2012-10-15 at 05:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Dragon Slaying Advice? Get a really big spear. Stick 'im with the point end.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Also, just a word of advice? Slap your DM for pitting three sixth level characters against a dragon designed to be dangerous to four twelfth level characters.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    Obviously if you're slinging solid fogs, you have access to some non-beguiler/dread necro spells, so I'll list a few that have been helpful to me. Of course, since you're in a dungeon, there's a good chance you won't have access to most of these, but still...
    Solid Fog is a Beguiler spell. Easy to overlook since it's all alone on a short line on the end of the level 4s, but it's there.

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    A Mature Adult White Dragon has a dexterity score of 10, so it is probably going last. It's too bad you can't all use wands of scorching ray on it, as you are effectively certain to hit and it takes double fire damage.

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Ah, well. Hopefully, the DM will give us something to make it doable.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    I'm not that good at this, and I found this on the internet, so this is more of a question than an answer, but here goes:

    does a White Dragon have cold subtype?

    Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Solid Fog is a Beguiler spell. Easy to overlook since it's all alone on a short line on the end of the level 4s, but it's there.
    Gah, guess that advice doesn't help much, then. Never actually played a beguiler, and I just assumed it didn't have solid fog on its list without checking.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    White dragons, according to the SRD, do have the cold subtype. Looks like the job of the plot device, unless we are willing to commit suicide to do it(use the adamantium greatsword to bring down the cavern, with the dragon inside...)
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
    I'm not that good at this, and I found this on the internet, so this is more of a question than an answer, but here goes:

    does a White Dragon have cold subtype?

    Creatures with the cold subtype are immune to the effects of shivering touch.
    So, you are in fact, officially screwed. Up a creek without a boat, much less a paddle. Do NOT fight this dragon unless you plan to restart the campaign.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage1 View Post
    White dragons, according to the SRD, do have the cold subtype. Looks like the job of the plot device, unless we are willing to commit suicide to do it(use the adamantium greatsword to bring down the cavern, with the dragon inside...)
    Or you could figure out some way to survive the collapse.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Solid fog to slow the fall of the debris, giving us more time to escape? Convincing the DM that beguilers have dimension door?
    Attempt to use the non trained skills to create a shelter from the fall, that can then be used to dig our way out...
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt (Unapproachable East) is the only other 4th-level or below spell that comes to mind... it damages both Con and Strength with a reflex (!) save for half.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    From the sounds of it, not much. sadly, a beguiler and a dread necro can't cast it.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    They won't give you the win, but the maximum number of skeletons you can control throwing Alchemist's fire will do solid damage and force him to either maneuver out of their reach or waste several rounds killing them since their immune to cold.

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    They won't give you the win, but the maximum number of skeletons you can control throwing Alchemist's fire will do solid damage and force him to either maneuver out of their reach or waste several rounds killing them since their immune to cold.
    Halfling skeletons.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    No onyx, which the DN has complained about in the past.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage1 View Post
    No onyx, which the DN has complained about in the past.
    ?????

    Explain please, have you tried to buy it repeatedly and found it unavailable? Did you know this would be a normal condiion in the campaign? If not you should have a serious talk with your DM about stealth nerfing DN by disallowing Animate Dead.

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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    We did not reach level 6 until after we were away from any stores. I don't know if there will be any to buy, but for now, there is none.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Gonna chime in with a vote of "You're hosed."

    This fight is unwinnable without a plot-device. Period. End of ****ing sentence.

    Why are you after this critter anyway? Is there a mcguffin in his hoard? Do you need to get past him to reach some other area? In anycase, all signs point to avoidance. Sneak in for the mcguffin while he's out hunting. Find another way around.

    Just, whatever you do, don't try to fight it again. Your characters have already used up enough of their luck to shorten their lives by decades as it is.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-15 at 08:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Slaying Advice

    Sadly, we have the macguffin already, but the dragon can detect it by scent. Which makes evasion tricky. We need to get past him to get out of the dungeon.
    Time to ope for a merciful DM. After the tribe of frost giants, I have my doubts...
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