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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Changing shape while being thrown...

    Ok, My first mistake was allowing my friend (min/max expert) access to any and every book he had. He chose the divine minion/master of many forms route, and has since been having a lot of fun destroying my campaign.

    Good news is our group is very open to his craziness and there's very little unhappiness within the group when he does this.

    Question came up that I have no answer to.
    Player B is free action shape changer extraordinay
    If Player A picks up Player B and throws Player B while a in small shape (or tiny or fine or whatever size he happens to be at this time) and Player B changes size to a different form (Free action) while in the air. What happens?

    Does the throw land short?

    Does Player A hit the spot he aimed for (provided the ranged touch attack was successful)?

    Does being thrown count against Player B's movement, and thus count as a move action?

    When hit by the now Nagahydra (our current favorite form) Player B, does the creature take damage from the now Huge, 20,000 pound creature? Which would then bite the creature?

    Has been bothering me for little while now, and there is nothing I can think of in the real world to simulate this, as the object being thrown is changing shape, and nothing in the real world goes from hedgehog size to elephant size in less than 6 seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    The bigger the naga, though, the more chance of a reversal. Some fights, you'll Power Attack with your Naga. Some fights, the Naga will Power Attack with you.

    “Parley” is the French word for “everyone else is flat-footed and bare-handed”.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB 139
    You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
    While he is in the air, he is not performing any actions, therefore he cannot perform a free action.
    Last edited by Namfuak; 2012-10-16 at 12:42 AM.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    This is essentially the shrink item problem.


    It has been rehashed in many threads.


    Purely by RAW, you use the Falling Damage by Weight table in the DMG, which caps out at 20d6. (you can extend it for larger weights, but the only way to extend it by RAW is to be a hulking hurler - they use a formula, not a table, specifically in their class, so they can do more by throwing stuff)



    If you want a common sense explanation, i'd make the table scale slightly slower and extend it to infinity using the simple mathematical rule it uses - but allow reflex saves to dodge falling objects.

    For coolness value, i'd also allow strength checks to 'catch' falling objects. So the nagahydra falls on someone, and everyone's like 'lol, he's dead', but Charles Atlas just rolled an 18 on his magic boosted huge strength score, and he slowly lifts the nagahydra over his head and throws it back.


    Also you can't do free actions on other people's turns. You can only do Immediate actions. Or Readied actions. So the MMoF would have to READY to change shape on his turn, get thrown, readied action goes off, and then he doesn't get to act again until that point (where his readied went off) comes around again in the initiative order. Otherwise he gets thrown and lands on the thrower's turn, all in tiny form.

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    Fitz10019's Avatar

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Are you allowing this without requiring the Fling Ally feat in Races of Stone (p.139)? It's worth a read even if you are not using it.

    I might consider anyone in mid-air and without a fly speed as flat-footed, or possibly apply the disadvantages of a charge.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2012-10-16 at 05:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Purely by RAW, you use the Falling Damage by Weight table in the DMG, which caps out at 20d6. (you can extend it for larger weights, but the only way to extend it by RAW is to be a hulking hurler - they use a formula, not a table, specifically in their class, so they can do more by throwing stuff)
    No. Throwing creatures really isn't in the rules, other than the horrible Fling Ally/Fling Enemy feats, so RAW isn't exactly clear here. But the creature being thrown isn't being accelerated by gravity beyond what any other projectile would experience. If you want to go by RAW (or at least get close to it), you'd treat the creature as an improvised weapon.

    There is no such formula for calculating damage in the Hulking Hurler text. What it does say is, "Use the rules in Chapter 4 of this book to determine the amount of damage the thrown weapon does." This is referring to the Improvised Weapon Damage table on page 159. The table maxes out at 400 lbs (5d6 damage), and by RAW there's no indication that it goes beyond that weight. However, many optimizers have progressed that table beyond 400 lbs by using a formula, which is how you get Hulking Hurlers throwing planetoids made out of osmium for millions-d6 damage., +1d6 per additional 200 lbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Also you can't do free actions on other people's turns. You can only do Immediate actions. Or Readied actions. So the MMoF would have to READY to change shape on his turn, get thrown, readied action goes off, and then he doesn't get to act again until that point (where his readied went off) comes around again in the initiative order. Otherwise he gets thrown and lands on the thrower's turn, all in tiny form.
    This is mostly correct. From the PHB: "You can perform one or more free
    actions while taking another action normally." That "another action" could be an immediate action, so you could piggyback a "free" onto an "immediate" outside of your turn, if need be. Readying an action also allows you to interrupt the turn order, but while you could ready a "free action", it's more likely that you'll want to ready some other standard action, such as an attack, and combine it with the free action. Turn order would look something like:

    10: Player B readies an action, stating he will make a standard attack when thrown into melee range of an enemy.
    9: Player A, a Hulking Hurler, picks up Player A and hurls him at an enemy.
    9: Player B now takes his readied action, shapechanging first as a free action, and then making a standard attack in mid-air.
    9: Assuming Player A hit his target with a normal ranged attack, improvised weapon damage is calculated based on Player B's weight.
    8: initiative order continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen View Post
    Does the throw land short?
    Why would it land short? If Player A misses his attack roll with a thrown weapon, you use the "Missing With a Thrown Weapon" diagram on page 158 of the PHB.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen View Post
    Does Player A hit the spot he aimed for (provided the ranged touch attack was successful)?
    It's only a ranged *touch* attack if you're throwing a splash weapon. If Player A is throwing at a particular square/intersection, rather than a specific creature, then that's considerably easier to hit. From the PHB:

    "You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. (You can’t target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you’re aiming at the creature.)"

    However... if you throw at a square/intersection above your target's head, you *could* use the easier AC 5 (adjusted for range), and you *could* use the Falling Object rules.

    If you're just using the Core rules, then there's a quirk to the Falling Object rules in that the damage is calculated by weight, which caps at 20d6 max. (The PHB rules are ambiguous on whether this damage cap applies only to the distance fallen or the weight calculation, but the Rules Compendium unambiguously states, "A falling object can deal a maximum of 20d6 points of damage.") Unfortunately, the Rules Compendium didn't attempt to close one of the more interesting loopholes in Core: there is no explicit Ref save to avoid the Falling Object damage. You can argue that an attack roll or Ref save is implied, but there are no clear guidelines in the Core rules to cover what happens when you drop heavy objects on a target. Some DMs may allow a Ref save or require an attack roll, perhaps treating the falling object as a "Falling Block Trap" (DMG p. 72).

    If your group has access to Heroes of Battle, then you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules on page 68. AC is 5, range increment is 50', -4 penalty for an improvised weapon, and the flying creature's maneuverability may incur an additional penalty. The target is allowed a Ref save DC 15 to avoid damage. An attack that misses uses the thrown weapon scatter diagram from the PHB, but since this never scatters more than 5', dropping a huge-sized projectile ensures a hit on at least the target square.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen View Post
    Does being thrown count against Player B's movement, and thus count as a move action?
    No. Player B is being moved via another entity/agency. He's not using any of his movement modes.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen View Post
    When hit by the now Nagahydra (our current favorite form) Player B, does the creature take damage from the now Huge, 20,000 pound creature? Which would then bite the creature?
    As an improvised thrown weapon, yes. 5d6 damage per the table, assuming you are not extending the table to cover weights higher than 400 lbs., +1d6 per additional 200 lbs. 20,000 lbs = 103d6. (If you can convince your DM that the projectile is "sharp", you can double the effective weight to 203d6).

    If Player B readied an action to attack, yes, he could get in a bite attack.

    Note that Player B does not take any damage for being a projectile. Some DMs may incur falling damage on Player B, using the distance thrown as the height of the fall. If so, you may be able to use a Tumble check, catfall power, boots of landing, or the Landing armor property to negate some of this.

    If you really want to uber-optimize this tactic...

    1) Player B readies an action to attack when thrown within melee range.
    2) Player A (Hulking Hurler) grabs Player B, and throws him into a square 10' above his target. AC 5, adjusted for range.
    3) Player B falls 10', activating Battle Jump (Unapproachable East), turning his 10' fall into a Charge attack. As he falls into melee range, his readed action triggers, and he shapechanges into a Nagahydra as a free action.
    4) Presumably, Player B picked up Pounce somewhere, so his Charge attack is now a Full Attack. Nagahydra gets 7 bites + poison. Add Ubercharger damage multipliers as needed.
    5) Player B has six levels of Fighter, Dungeon Crasher ACF, and the Knockback feat. Every attack that hits, he gets a bull rush attempt to push the target into the ground, doing 8d6 damage on each successful bull rush.
    6) Player B lands on the target, doing 20d6 falling object damage.
    7) You may now have a stacking violation in the target square. You can treat this as an improvised Bull Rush or Overrun: target gets an AoO on the Nagahydra when it enters his square. You then both make an opposed Str or Dex check, modified by size, to resolve who gets knocked to the ground. If you win, your target is knocked prone and you land in his square. If your opponent wins, you're knocked prone, and "move back 5'", which is 5' above the target square, and essentially fall back prone into your opponent's square.
    8) If you knocked your opponent prone, some DMs may require a Balance or Tumble check to see if you land on your feet. Using the catfeet power or Landing armor property allows you to automatically land on your feet.
    9) Target not dead yet? Still have a swift action left? Repeat the whole thing with a swift-action teleport, such as the dimension hop power, Anklets of Translocation, Shadow Blink maneuver, Abrupt Jaunt, etc.
    10) At the end of your turn, use a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC) attached to a pocket to draw ammunition or a spell component (free action). This triggers a dimension hop spell (PHBII). Teleport 10' straight up, Battle Jump turns your fall into another Charge attack, rinse and repeat with multiple pockets/Glyph Seals.

    We might be able to make it considerably worse if we go back to Player A and make him the King of Pong... but then it gets considerably more wonky. We're not really using falling object damage or Battle Jump anymore, and the King of Pong needs to be able to bench-press a 40,000 lb Nagahydra, and the Nagahydra can't ready an action more than once, but the King of Pong gets to throw the Nagahydra with his iterative attacks. Assuming four iteratives, the King of Pong could use Lightning Ricochet+return for the first three attacks, then throw 10' above the target on his last throw, triggering Battle Jump + Charge/Pounce attack, and then after Player B lands he can re-activate Battle Jump with Anklets of Translocation/Glyph Seal teleports. Assuming there's even anything left at that point beyond a bloody smear that you could call a target.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen View Post
    Has been bothering me for little while now, and there is nothing I can think of in the real world to simulate this, as the object being thrown is changing shape, and nothing in the real world goes from hedgehog size to elephant size in less than 6 seconds.
    There are projectiles that may change their physical size (parachutes, for example) and thus incur significant changes in air/fluid resistance, but no, nothing in the real world changes *mass* in mid-flight. I'm not really sure getting into the math of calculating the momentum/velocity/etc. would really be worthwhile. Besides, D&D gets really, really strange whenever you try and bring momentum into the discussion (e.g., the "Commoner Railgun"). Think of the catgirls, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    Are you allowing this without requiring the Fling Ally feat in Races of Stone (p.139)? It's worth a read even if you are not using it.
    Not worth it, actually. Fling Ally requires a move action to grab and limits you to a standard action to throw. You can get more mileage out of your actions by just treating an ally as an improvised weapon. Improved Grab lets you combine a touch attack/grapple to grab/lift, and "Really Throw Anything" from Hulking Hurler lets you use your iteratives to throw instead of limiting you to a standard action. This leaves you with your move action and any remaining iteratives to do something else.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    There is no such formula for calculating damage in the Hulking Hurler text. What it does say is, "Use the rules in Chapter 4 of this book to determine the amount of damage the thrown weapon does." This is referring to the Improvised Weapon Damage table on page 159. The table maxes out at 400 lbs (5d6 damage), and by RAW there's no indication that it goes beyond that weight. However, many optimizers have progressed that table beyond 400 lbs by using a formula, which is how you get Hulking Hurlers throwing planetoids made out of osmium for millions-d6 damage.
    That's incorrect. Last sentence of the first paragraph of the Improvised Weapon Damage section: "For every additional 200 pounds of an object's weight beyond 400 pounds, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage if used as an improvised weapon."
    Consequently, a 20,000 lbs hydra would deal 103d6 damage if you hit someone with it.

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    That's incorrect. Last sentence of the first paragraph of the Improvised Weapon Damage section: "For every additional 200 pounds of an object's weight beyond 400 pounds, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage if used as an improvised weapon."
    Consequently, a 20,000 lbs hydra would deal 103d6 damage if you hit someone with it.
    Thanks! Good catch!

    If you can convince your DM that the projectile is "sharp" (perhaps with Beastskin armor + armor spikes), you can double the effective weight to 40,000 lbs, or 203d6.

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Throwing creatures really isn't in the rules, other than the horrible Fling Ally/Fling Enemy feats, so RAW isn't exactly clear here.
    There's no rule, other than the rule. I would argue that, because there is a feat for this, you can't do it without taking the feat.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    This smacks of shrink object cheating also.

    I have a firm rule that if the spell doesn't say it deals damage, it does not deal damage.

    If changing shape doesn't cause you to deal damage to things which enclose you or enemies too close to you when you change it should not be usable to explode into a missile of doom either.

    I would simply say that the spell/ability allows you to violate the conservation of mass but not the conservation of momentum, so you slow to a stop as you grow, always dealing exactly the damage your ally can deal with an improvised thrown weapon.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    Wow, little confused on some of the stuff, but still awesomeness.

    I have wondered about the Nagahydra getting 7 bite attacks with only 5 heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    The bigger the naga, though, the more chance of a reversal. Some fights, you'll Power Attack with your Naga. Some fights, the Naga will Power Attack with you.

    “Parley” is the French word for “everyone else is flat-footed and bare-handed”.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Changing shape while being thrown...

    No. Throwing creatures really isn't in the rules, other than the horrible Fling Ally/Fling Enemy feats, so RAW isn't exactly clear here. But the creature being thrown isn't being accelerated by gravity beyond what any other projectile would experience. If you want to go by RAW (or at least get close to it), you'd treat the creature as an improvised weapon.
    Yeah, but he's aiming at a square in the air above the target. Not at the target itself. This is the basis for all the 'falling damage' crap.

    As an improvised thrown weapon, yes. 5d6 damage per the table, assuming you are not extending the table to cover weights higher than 400 lbs., +1d6 per additional 200 lbs. 20,000 lbs = 103d6. (If you can convince your DM that the projectile is "sharp", you can double the effective weight to 203d6).

    If Player B readied an action to attack, yes, he could get in a bite attack.
    To be clear, though, Player B wanted to be a nagahydra when he landed instead of a softball or whatever was actually thrown, he would need to waste his readied action in mid-air. He would not get to full attack regardless unless he has Battle Jump and Pounce (which automatically trigger if you fall 10' on top of someone).

    He needs to ready an action and then waste it to turn into a nagahydra mid-air. And then he doesn't get to act again for a full turn after his readied action, because it resets his initiative to whatever the readied action was taken at.
    Last edited by Rejakor; 2012-10-17 at 01:17 AM.

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