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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    Are you REALLY going to try to tell me that Ichigo trusting Ginjo was NOT a huge mistake? And that the only reason he survived was because his father and the SS saved him?
    Please note that I did not say "no mistakes". I said "no flaws". Trusting someone is not a character flaw. Similarly, I was discussing people's moral choices being infalliably correct, not every decision that causes drama. AND that was a warning sign. I notice that you didn't even try to engage me on the two main points.

    But hey, I'll take up your gauntlet because why not, it's good for a laugh. Ichigo's "mistake" of trusting Ginjo was a meaningless one that granted him a new set of super-powers, which he instantly lost but just as instantly gained stronger ones with no consequences or effort and then the bad guys were utterly beaten with no casualties on the good team. He suffered no negative consequences for trusting Ginjo whatsoever - every negative thing that happened to him and his friends was done by Tsukishima, who he knew was evil.

    On top of that, it wasn't a mistake at all - Ginjo was trustworthy! He was mind-controlled into being trustworthy and then re-mind-controlled into being a villain again! Ginjo couldn't just be lying, because that would mean that Ichigo made a mistake. No, he had to have all of his memories rewritten in an absurdly complex and meaningless Xanatos Roulette because god knows you can't slip a lie past Ichigo.
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  2. - Top - End - #482
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    I wouldn't go so far as to call Ichigo a Gary Stu. Sure he gets all the powers ever, but I think that's more just poor writing than anything else.

    If anyone in this series gets to be called a Gary Stu, it's Aizen.

    Or possibly Tsukishima from a literal standpoint.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Mary Sue was never a well defined term to begin with, I'm not sure there is any point in arguing over whether any given character is one, no matter how obvious it seems. I don't really think of Ichigo as one, his characterization is actually fairly rounded which in my book is a mark against being a Mary Sue. Really the problem with the manga isn't the main characters who are all pretty well rounded and dynamic for a shonen manga, but the rest of the manga including the fact that most of the characters don't get much screen time anymore and the one who does (Ichigo) spends most of it fighting.

    Edit: Oh yeah, new chapter. Well, I'm not too happy about Unohana being nerfed in favor of this zero division guy, or in general the zero division acting all high and mighty, but it wasn't a bad chapter overall.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2012-11-20 at 02:25 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #484
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaez View Post
    I'm more inclined to think that she was the head of her own "science" division ala Urahara/Mayuri.
    Checking back on it, the Shinigami Research and Development Institute was founded by Urahara, so if she was a captain of the 12th Division, she was in-between Urahara and Mayuri. It's always been tied to the 12th Division since then, so other possibilities are that she had the lab before then and the SRDI was put in the same location (maybe even for that reason) or that she was once part of the 12th Division and the SRDI, but when being promoted to captain she went to a different division.

    What I am kind of wondering though, is why is Byakuya coming along, while Kenpachi isn't? He is in just as much danger as Byakuya is.
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  5. - Top - End - #485
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob View Post
    If anyone in this series gets to be called a Gary Stu, it's Aizen.

    Or possibly Tsukishima from a literal standpoint.
    I have to admit that the superpower of "self-insert fanfiction" is one of the best things ever. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    Mary Sue was never a well defined term to begin with, I'm not sure there is any point in arguing over whether any given character is one, no matter how obvious it seems. I don't really think of Ichigo as one, his characterization is actually fairly rounded which in my book is a mark against being a Mary Sue.
    Well, mileage can certainly vary, but I don't think that Ichigo is actually well-rounded - anymore.

    I want to stress that I do not believe that Ichigo started Bleach as a Mary Sue. At creation, he was a spiritually and emotionally myopic hothead. Hell, the entire series only exists because of his flaws. If he'd just sat back and accepted that maybe this crazy-powerful magical binding wasn't something he should be breaking, Rukia could have killed the Hollow instead of getting brutally wounded saving him, and he wouldn't have had to take her power, and then she wouldn't have been arrested etc etc.

    The first season's arcs are all based around the flaws of Ichigo and his friends. Ichigo's thoughtlessness results in Rukia having to teach him to hunt ghosts, and his reluctance causes trouble all over the place. Chad and Orihime's respective refusal to discuss their problems nearly gets each of them killed. Ishida's hatred nearly gets everyone killed when he unleashes problems he can't fix, and in the process his total lack of attention to his friends nearly gets them killed when he fails to realize that they could be in danger.

    The second arc is about consequences, too - Ichigo goes after Rukia because of his own guilt and sense of responsibility for what happened to her, and guilt and loss are at the root of why everyone in Soul Society is behaving like a twit. Renji is guilty for abandoning Rukia, Byakuya is guilty for breaking the laws for his wife, Tousen is angry at the death of his captain, Hinamori flips out over Aizen and Toshiro flips out over Hinamori, Soi Fon is destroyed because she was abandoned... and so on. Ichigo almost gets himself and Yoruichi killed because he tries to fight Byakuya without his bankai, Ishida destroys his own powers to get revenge, Kenpachi changes sides when he finally finds a worthy opponent, and Aizen is obsessed with perfecting himself and overcoming his perceived flaws.

    The problem is that Ichigo overcomes those flaws in the third arc. He makes peace with his anger, he accepts his limits, and he sacrifices his power not to destroy the big bad, but to let someone else do it. He's accepted his limits and is ready to fade away.

    And then he doesn't.

    Ichigo's myopia is gone. His anger is focused and only actually comes out when it's reasonable and correct for it to. But nothing has replaced the loss of those character traits. Kubo completed his story, and then decided to tell two more chapters of it, and the result is that there's nothing to fill the gap, no emotional resonance or character dilemmas. Ichigo's decisions are reduced to "can I fight even harder", and the answer is always "not at first, but then later yes".
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  6. - Top - End - #486
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    These Squad Zero guys are a bunch of jerks. Except for giant beard guy.

    I actually like Orihime, so it really bugs me when everyone acts as if she doesn't exist. The crippled captains and lieutenants and the broken bankai do not require these jerks to be fixed. Definetly agree with Morph: Why Byakuya but not Kenpachi?
    Last edited by Slayer Lord; 2012-11-20 at 03:17 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #487
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    These Squad Zero guys are a bunch of jerks. Except for giant beard guy.

    I actually like Orihime, so it really bugs me when everyone acts as if she doesn't exist. The crippled captains and lieutenants and the broken bankai do not require these jerks to be fixed. Definetly agree with Morph: Why Byakuya but not Kenpachi?
    I'm going to attribute this to being actually genre-savvy. Wounded or not, I wouldn't let Kenpachi go along just because you know he's just going to cause a bunch of trouble, challenging everyone in sight and generally making a mess of things.

  8. - Top - End - #488
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    These Squad Zero guys are a bunch of jerks. Except for giant beard guy.
    The one harrasing Shinji does not seem so bad. But yeah, the other two have real attitude problems. The SS Captains seem to think so to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    I actually like Orihime, so it really bugs me when everyone acts as if she doesn't exist. The crippled captains and lieutenants and the broken bankai do not require these jerks to be fixed. Definetly agree with Morph: Why Byakuya but not Kenpachi?
    Kenpachi may not have been wounded badly enough to be worried about him. He certainly is extreamly tough. Orihime is in Hueco Mundo and I don't think she has been forgotten about. The last page has "that person" arriving and I would be surprised if she where not along with him.

  9. - Top - End - #489
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    These Squad Zero guys are a bunch of jerks. Except for giant beard guy.
    Come on, so far only stupid-hair deserves our spite. Kirio seems to be ok, and with Senshumaru we now know where Mayuri got his attidute from (ok, she is probably a jerk, but more of the trollish fun type). Sunglasses hasn't even talked yet.
    Last edited by Dscherro; 2012-11-20 at 04:31 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #490
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dscherro View Post
    Come on, so far only stupid-hair deserves our spite. Kirio seems to be ok, and with Senshumaru we now know where Mayuri got his attidute from (ok, she is probably a jerk, but more of the trollish fun type). Sunglasses hasn't even talked yet.
    You're right. Though it seems weird that Kirio's changed so much that Shinji doesn't recognize her. I wonder what that's about.

  11. - Top - End - #491
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    You're right. Though it seems weird that Kirio's changed so much that Shinji doesn't recognize her. I wonder what that's about.
    My bet? Gender shift.
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Yeah, stupid-hair earned my spite, and Beardface (this needs to be his nickname here) earned awesome points because of stupid-hair ***ness.
    Last edited by Dante & Vergil; 2012-11-20 at 05:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    You're right. Though it seems weird that Kirio's changed so much that Shinji doesn't recognize her. I wonder what that's about.
    Childbirth Eating a lot of cakes and not exercising does that to a woman.

    Shame none of the guys have been named yet. For now I'm gonna call them Zerobeard, Zeroshades and Zerohair.

    Yes, they're slightly ironic. But what are you gonna do about it? They were Zero Division before it was known cool.
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    You're right. Though it seems weird that Kirio's changed so much that Shinji doesn't recognize her. I wonder what that's about.
    How is that weird? She left over 100 years ago, before Urahura became Captain and when Aizen was only a Lieutenant.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    I dunno, beardy looks like a "Zangief" to me.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    I dunno, beardy looks like a "Zangief" to me.
    "Just because you are badly developed character it does not make you bad guy."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    How is that weird? She left over 100 years ago, before Urahura became Captain and when Aizen was only a Lieutenant.
    Yeah, but no one else has changed that much in a hundred years. I like Morph's explanation. They probably don't get that much exercise hanging around the palace.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    "Just because you are badly developed character it does not make you bad guy."

    Okay, that was horrible. Ow! Stop throwing stones!
    You kidding, that was awesome!! I laughed too!!

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    "Just because you are badly developed character it does not make you bad guy."

    Okay, that was horrible. Ow! Stop throwing stones!
    no stones available, I'll just throw laughter your way
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayer Lord View Post
    Yeah, but no one else has changed that much in a hundred years. I like Morph's explanation. They probably don't get that much exercise hanging around the palace.
    Actually, now that I think about it, has anyone changed at all from the time aside from their clothes?

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, has anyone changed at all from the time aside from their clothes?
    Ururu looks older.
    Ok, that's not too different from clothes.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    I liked it when Ichigo's hair was longer. Shame that his aging was reversed for half-explained reasons.

    I guess Orihime's boobs got bigger?

    Uryuu drastically changed his hairstyle iirc. I know I barely recognized him at the start of the Fullbring arc.
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, has anyone changed at all from the time aside from their clothes?
    There are physical changes with the people that are still alive, though they are subtle for the most part. Only about a year and a half has passed so your not going to see a huge change in things other than hairstyle and such (other than Ichigo's sisters of course). For instance Orihime does have a different hairstyle and has her "hairclips" on her cloths now. The people in the SS age very very slowly and so we should not see any changes in age. But there have been changes in style up there as well. First time I saw Rukia I didn't really recognize her.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, has anyone changed at all from the time aside from their clothes?
    Even from Turn Back the Pendulum to now the changes have been largely cosmetic, witht the exception of Byakuya, Nanao, Shuhei, Akon and Gin since they were all kids then.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Strangely enough though, Yachiru appears to have visibly grown too, despite the incredibly slowed aging in Seireitei. (I mean, it's like, what, one fifth the speed of the real world, tops?)
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Strangely enough though, Yachiru appears to have visibly grown too, despite the incredibly slowed aging in Seireitei. (I mean, it's like, what, one fifth the speed of the real world, tops?)
    During their first meeting Rukia mentioned that she's nearly ten times as old as Ichigo. Since she could easily blend in with Ichigo's classmates, she probably looks like a teenager, and she is, for a shinigami, rather young, that could mean that she is in her "shinigami-teens". So the ratio would be around 1:10.
    But of course there are 30 years old that could pass for teens, and Rukia is quite small. 1:5 sounds right too (that would put Rukia in her "30s"). Maybe somewhere in between.
    Unfortunately we have no information about a shinigami's average life span, and they might not even age on a constant speed.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Since Rukia might've exaggerated, I went with what I figured would be the easiest way to measure it: Byakuya. He appeared in the Swing Back The Pendulum arc 110 years in the past as a boy in his early teens, whereas at current I'd put him in his 30s (he doesn't appear old enough to be in his 40s, but old enough to have kids in their early teens himself). So roughly 20 years to 110 years, rounded it a little, 5:1 seemed good. It could be higher, but I certainly wouldn't put it lower. Maybe 4:1, but it's more likely to go in the other direction, up to 10:1 or even slightly beyond.

    This is of course assuming members of the noble clans are all born into the spirit world.
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Since Rukia might've exaggerated, I went with what I figured would be the easiest way to measure it: Byakuya. He appeared in the Swing Back The Pendulum arc 110 years in the past as a boy in his early teens, whereas at current I'd put him in his 30s (he doesn't appear old enough to be in his 40s, but old enough to have kids in their early teens himself). So roughly 20 years to 110 years, rounded it a little, 5:1 seemed good. It could be higher, but I certainly wouldn't put it lower. Maybe 4:1, but it's more likely to go in the other direction, up to 10:1 or even slightly beyond.

    This is of course assuming members of the noble clans are all born into the spirit world.
    Maybe they age faster until they hit maturity. Maybe they age however fast they want to? Lots of possible explanations.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    My bet is that the progression from adult to old person is significantly slower than the growth from child to adult.
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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Or maybe we should stop trying to make sense of non-sense Kubo put in without thinking of how they work.

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    Default Re: Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    My bet is that the progression from adult to old person is significantly slower than the growth from child to adult.
    I always figured this. Rukia's statements at the beginning don't fit her background that was revealed later, and since it was boasting I think we can safely assume she isn't literally that old, only a few years older than she looks.

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