Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

[Morph Bark]

I find it interesting for versus thread fodder primarily, I do a lot of math in regards to these things, and these showings like this provide in universe counters to no limits fallacies in regards to durability from Reiatsu from non Reiatsu users.

Superman vs Genocide plz

[Friv]

Wait, which have been the most similar pairs of zanpakutoh abilities? I'm sitting here thinking that character design being the one thing that Kubo loves to do (...ok, in addition to drawing busty ladies), he wouldn't hit the low of recycling powers.

Well, there's a difference between "similar" and "identical".

If I were to pull out other similar ones, though:

* Renji's zanpakuto turns his weapon into a giant monster which attacks people. This is quite similar to Mayuri's (although Mayuri's differs in spreading poison instead of itself) and Werewolf's (although Werewolf's heals naturally and shares injury with him).
* Gin's poison dust is similar to both Matsumoto's murderous ashes, in that both weapons dissolve, turn into dust, and then kill enemies from the inside.
* Hinamori and Kensei apparently both use their shikais to gather spiritual energy and fire it as bolts of power.
*

[Elhann]

I'd admit that Hinamori and Yamamoto are not that similar. Hinamori just shoots fireballs, while Yamamoto's creates a stupid ammount of fire and does all sort of things with it.

This said, Rukia and Hitsugaya just freeze things. Yes, Rukia cannot do the Frozen Chistmas Tree (that doesn't really work) which Hitsugaya used against Arrancar Girl, and her blasts are more limited. That's why he is a captain, and she isn't. I fail to see how their shikais are different, other than aesthetically.

Same goes for Better-than-you and Lt. Boobies. Byakuya's zanpakutou is prettier, and he manages to do more things than Whats-her-name. I think that the cherry petal thing is something important in Japan, while "a cloud of ash" probably isn't. For every other purpose, their shikai releases are similar.

I'm not saying those are bad things. Bleach has a stupid ammount of characters, the fact that a few of them have similar powers is not the end of the world. Just saying that there would be a precedent for two characters having them, if Unohana's sword can actually heal. She hasn't released against Zaraki yet, and her shikai doesn't really look suited for battle. Her bankai is pure speculation.

[Fan]

Superman vs Genocide plz

I don't want to get into that, but my opinion is that since Reiatsu and Kido are separate things (Reaitsu being a natural thing, and established as not magic, with Reiryoku being the canon source of Kido Magic which is in fact a form of magic, but given that it is canonically separate from the Reiatsu that is used for Zanpaktou abilities, and that which the Zanpaktou is made out of (Reishi, solid Reiatsu. It's a form of spirit matter.)) that even with the power to destroy what we'll assume is roughly a continent sized area (I'll be generous and place it at the size of Eurasia, given that it was said to be able to destroy all of Soul Society given time, and then from there assume that it's able to destroy that his claim of it being 15,000,000 degrees is also not exaggeration.) it's not quite hot enough to hurt Superman.

Superman's survived the impact of multiple supernovas, each with the impact force of about 10 Octillion Megatons multiple times, with the causation of a supernova being the stars temperature to rise to be hot enough to preform Carbon Fusion this also means that it's propeled mass, which is propelled at 10% the speed of light, is also much hotter than the traditional core temperature of the Sun which is at 15.7 Million Kelvin, or 1.56997e7 degrees Celsisus, going by the temperature of a Main Sequence Star like our own, and not the hotter temperatures of a Sun going Supernova when Carbon Fusion has been initiated, and Superman has survived this outside the influence of a yellow sun, and withstood attacks that have claimed that they brought forward much more power.

Meaning that Superman is capable of resisting the temperatures going by stated fact, though it would be fair to say that it'd be far from a pleasant experience, with the lack of Zanpaktou's being magical (merely a form of energy attack. Kido is magic, and Reiryoku is what powers it, not Reiatsu.) means that Captain Genocide would be required to use kido, which at it's absolute best has been proven to be weaker than a mountain shattering attack, the likes of which Shazam / Captain Marvel has used on Superman while also being completely magical and failed to put down The Man of Steel.

I wont argue it further, it's just my opinion going by the math I've set forward and scaling the Captain Commander up the ladder in durability and speed feats to Dangai Ichigo.

Aside from Captain Genocide's VERY impressive destructive capability, he's also slower, not as intelligent (Superman has a canonical Super Brain that allows him to process information thousands of times faster than a normal human's, and strategically fight while going at multiple's of the speed of light.), in possession of a less diverse powerset, and in general lacking in comparison.

However, Superman auto loses to a lot of the Saints (Gold + were all Star System - Galaxy Level Destroyers.) from Saint Seiya beat even Pre Crisis Sueprman, most of the characters from Dark Schenider auto win as well, Lucifer Morningstar, Galactus (Fed.), Thanos, The Sentry, Molecule Man, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Sailor Moon beats Superman as Sailor Cosmos, loads more beat him.

Being less or more powerful doesn't diminish a character's own merits, and who would beat who in a versus fight also doesn't make their stories any less interesting. Captain Yammamoto's final sacrifice still carried a lot of weight, and the reveal where he had been duped into essentially killing himself was one where I, at least, was genuinely surprised and him not being able to beat Superman doesn't diminish that.

Neither does Superman's story of a man struggling with his ideals, and himself, in a world that seems to reject good deeds on the basis of the world also rejecting the idea of a cosmic good these days. To quote him "Does there really NEED to be a Superman?".

Both these stories are still supported by their own merits, and while I.. am of the personal opinion that Bleach has gone downhill ever since the Soul Society arc there are people who disagree with me on that, as well as maintain that Superman has been on the downhill trend since the 90's.

[Somewhere]

Ok, I apparently don't remember Matsumoto's shikai, as yes, hers pretty much is Byakuya's.

I also apparently never remember that Unohana's shikai being revealed forever ago as the giant manta ray that eats & digests to heal.

[Drolyt]

I'd admit that Hinamori and Yamamoto are not that similar. Hinamori just shoots fireballs, while Yamamoto's creates a stupid ammount of fire and does all sort of things with it.

Hinamori's probably has more to it, we just haven't seen it. Or she never developed it beyond the basic of "exploding fireball".

This said, Rukia and Hitsugaya just freeze things. Yes, Rukia cannot do the Frozen Chistmas Tree (that doesn't really work) which Hitsugaya used against Arrancar Girl, and her blasts are more limited. That's why he is a captain, and she isn't. I fail to see how their shikais are different, other than aesthetically.

This one is closer to the truth I suppose, but they do work differently. Rukia's works through magic dances that create different effects, while Hitsugaya's creates a dragon shaped extension of his sword that he can attack with.

Same goes for Better-than-you and Lt. Boobies. Byakuya's zanpakutou is prettier, and he manages to do more things than Whats-her-name. I think that the cherry petal thing is something important in Japan, while "a cloud of ash" probably isn't. For every other purpose, their shikai releases are similar.

They have almost the same effect, true, but I think they are conceptually distinct.

I'm not saying those are bad things. Bleach has a stupid ammount of characters, the fact that a few of them have similar powers is not the end of the world. Just saying that there would be a precedent for two characters having them, if Unohana's sword can actually heal. She hasn't released against Zaraki yet, and her shikai doesn't really look suited for battle. Her bankai is pure speculation.

True enough.

[Somewhere]

Presumably, the difference between Rukia and Hitsugaya is that Rukia's dances do a direct temperature drop to freeze stuff, while Hitsugaya's manipulating water/ice (so, hydrokinesis? Aquakinesis?) to freeze stuff. I had to look up the Bleach wiki for this though, so grain of salt and all that.

I could not come up with a mechanical distinction between Matsumoto and Byakuya's, though.

[Dscherro]

I also apparently never remember that Unohana's shikai being revealed forever ago as the giant manta ray that eats & digests to heal.

I think we only saw it once, for a short time.
It doesn't make LaZodiac's theory impossible, since Tousen, for example, had two different shikai abilities (a stunning noise and shooting lots of blades), and his weren't even remotely similar.

[Morph Bark]

I don't want to get into that,

Hence why I posted it as a joke, but thanks for your lengthy opinion anyway, Fan.

Being less or more powerful doesn't diminish a character's own merits, and who would beat who in a versus fight also doesn't make their stories any less interesting.

Oh, certainly. If power had any effect on the quality of stories, there'd be a perfect story, and it would simply say "And then he ended everything". Actually, there might still be debate over it even then, but that would be about what gender noun would make it better.

I watch movies and series and read books and comics mainly for the stories, with the fights as a bonus feature, unless it's of course an action movie. Or something so hot-blooded it gives me goosebumps and makes my neural activity light up in a manly lightbulb fashion and inspires me to go do something. (Hello, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann!)

My favourite story from a book is the Nightangel Trilogy. From a movie? Forest Gump. The former slowly ramps up the power levels of the main characters. The latter... well, that'd be spoilers.

[thubby]

as a complete side track, i think it would be funny to see someone who lacked the spirit power to hurt zaraki use physical strength and physics to put him at the disadvantage.

[Morph Bark]

as a complete side track, i think it would be funny to see someone who lacked the spirit power to hurt zaraki use physical strength and physics to put him at the disadvantage.

For some reason that made me end up imagining Zaraki and Orihime (or Tatsuki) as a crime-fighting duo of spirit detectives.

WHY.

[Mato]

"Genryūsai & Tōshirō both have the same power, thermo control, except Genryūsai is significantly stronger." :D

[thubby]

"Genryūsai & Tōshirō both have the same power, thermo control, except Genryūsai is significantly stronger." :D

or at the very least, planck temperature is farther from room temp than absolute 0

[Dscherro]

For some reason that made me end up imagining Zaraki and Orihime (or Tatsuki) as a crime-fighting duo of spirit detectives.

WHY.

And your comment, combined with thubby's made me wonder how the Ghostbusters would fare against a shinigami or Arrancar.
To the fanfiction site!

[Somewhere]

So, as a little personal challenge to myself, each week I will translate the little random ToC comments Kubo/Kishi/Oda make if I can find a scan for the next issue, which is what you guys have read yesterday.

And so, what did Kubo say this time:
"Jikka to Skype. Meikko ga acchonburike wo suruyouninatteta. Dare ga oshietanda..."

So he's using Skype to converse with his parents' place. It looks like his niece is doing that 'acchonburike' reaction*. And he wonders who taught her that...

*It's a phrase that Pinoko from Black Jack says while making this face as a reaction to surprise. And IIRC, she puts her hands to the side of her face and pushes in a bit so her face gets distorted. Google imaging 'acchonburike' should have it come up as the first pic.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'm still waiting on the rest of this sub-plot to play out before I weigh in again on Captain Mom. I still don't like the execution of this scene, so far, but we will see how things look when the dust settles.

[Somewhere]

So regarding the last few panels of the latest chapter:

The raw goes...
"Zaraki Kenpachi, anata wa shinanai"
"Anata wa shisen wo kuguru tabi tsuyokunaru" <-- this is probably the confusing line
"Sorekoso ga anata ga mizukara ni ka****a ayamachi"

'Zaraki Kenpachi, you won't die.' Panda is correct here.
Literally, the second line is each time you cross the verge of death, you get stronger. I think that she means each time he's on the verge of death, as opposed to crossing over and actually dying, but I don't have the context of the rest of the chapter. I'll be interested in seeing how exactly Viz words this.
Then the third is... 'This is the fault which you imposed on yourself'. Panda is correct, if not somewhat awkward about it.

[LaZodiac]

Very shocked that it turns out that Mangapanda is correctly with the "you brought this apon yourself" intent of the words. Also, based purely on context, I'm sure Unohana means legit dying and coming back. Based on this clarification of language, and knowing the context, I can now safely say that, with a 95% accuracy, that Kenpachi is infact a zanpakuto and his power is that he gets stronger the more times he is killed.

Or something like that.

EDIT: Also, the line that was confusing was the "This is the fault which you've imposed on yourself" line.

[Turalisj]

So Zaraki is a regular saiyan and Unohana is SSJ2.

[Ramza00]

@Fan.
1) Superman doesn't have the ability to see ghosts, for he lacks the innate magical ability to see ghosts.
2) Superman even though he can't see ghosts can affect hollows and shinigami as evidenced by chad defeating a hollow with pure strength with the help of rukia.
3) Captain Genocide can see Superman though
4) Shinigami can affect the mortal world
5) We do not know what will happen when Captain Genocide just releases his spirit power, there is a chance this will overwhelm Superman and cause him to be paralyzed and/or instantly be destroyed by just being in the proximity of Captain Genocide.
6) Captain Genocide can perform 90 level kido without incantation, he also has a 100 out of 100 for kido in the databook. If Kido is equivalent to magic (transparency wise), the only ways Captain Genocide may be able to affect superman is via Kido.
7) Not all Kido needs to be offensive directly. We have seen two different variants of Kido causing a person to fall asleep. Does making superman fall asleep and then disappearing count as a win?

Superman doesn't have this in the bank, this may be a situation of an unstoppable force fighting an immovable object.

[Morph Bark]

So Zaraki is a regular saiyan and Unohana is SSJ2.

No, she is Chi-Chi.

[Fan]

@Fan.
1) Superman doesn't have the ability to see ghosts, for he lacks the innate magical ability to see ghosts.
2) Superman even though he can't see ghosts can affect hollows and shinigami as evidenced by chad defeating a hollow with pure strength with the help of rukia.
3) Captain Genocide can see Superman though
4) Shinigami can affect the mortal world
5) We do not know what will happen when Captain Genocide just releases his spirit power, there is a chance this will overwhelm Superman and cause him to be paralyzed and/or instantly be destroyed by just being in the proximity of Captain Genocide.
6) Captain Genocide can perform 90 level kido without incantation, he also has a 100 out of 100 for kido in the databook. If Kido is equivalent to magic (transparency wise), the only ways Captain Genocide may be able to affect superman is via Kido.
7) Not all Kido needs to be offensive directly. We have seen two different variants of Kido causing a person to fall asleep. Does making superman fall asleep and then disappearing count as a win?

Superman doesn't have this in the bank, this may be a situation of an unstoppable force fighting an immovable object.

Superman can see Souls.

Spoiler

Show

There's no reason he couldn't see Captain Genocide, given he's seen other Ghost's in the past too.

Also, the release of Spirit power is a physical pressure, Superman's been able to resist the gravity of The Sun just fine, and that's much greater than any reiatsu that the Captain Commander could have by virtue of it not auto killing everyone everywhere and instantly crushing soul society to dust at even half strength. Which while I understand control and localization, it does mean that saying that his aura is stronger than the gravity of the sun is kinda.. a bit of a stretch.

This is supported by the fact that his Shikai didn't destroy the non spirit material Karakura Town when he released Shikai, even assuming a 20 times power multiplier in Reiatsu alone from his bankai.

Also, Superman is trained to resist mental attacks and knows of several ways to even counter attack through attacks on his mind, magical or otherwise, so sleep magic doesn't quite work, not that there's even a sleep kido above level 50.

and I already covered that, a perfect incantationed full chant level by someone who can preform it without a chant (Thus empowering it further.) wasn't even able to harm Dangai Ichigo who was at Mountain Level Durability at best going by my previous calcs that I've done for Dangai Ichigo's speed and durability in other versus threads, and Dangai Ichigo is canonically stronger than Captain Genocide. The same occured again with a Hado number 96, full incantation by the Captain Commander and a spell that tore off his arm, wasn't even enough to destroy the town in question. A nice yield, but a city block level at best, and Superman has survived stronger blows from Captain Marvel's Lightning that has destroyed entire towns while also being completely magic.

As I said, I didn't want to get into this, and this is highly off topic, but suffice it to say I have scans and calcs for everything. I know my versus material, and for Superman in particular I have the only versus fight authority backing me.

[Drolyt]

I missed something, not sure when this line of conversation began. Anyways, which Superman? There are about 50000000 versions. At his most powerful though he's been tossed into the sun without damage and can move fast enough to save someone from a speeding train miles away (this also says something about his super senses). No one in Bleach stands a ghost of a chance.

[Fan]

I missed something, not sure when this line of conversation began. Anyways, which Superman? There are about 50000000 versions. At his most powerful though he's been tossed into the sun without damage and can move fast enough to save someone from a speeding train miles away (this also says something about his super senses). No one in Bleach stands a ghost of a chance.

I gave my educated opinion on a question that was asked (Jokingly), and someone responded to my opinion.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I could not come up with a mechanical distinction between Matsumoto and Byakuya's, though.

Matsumoto's shikai is ash that, from all appearances, can mimic a sword cut once it's laying on or against something. Byakuya's shikai is actual blades that can just fly through the opponent without having to lay atop them for a moment. That's what I've seen anyway.

[Mato]

Matsumoto's shikai is ash that, from all appearances, can mimic a sword cut once it's laying on or against something. Byakuya's shikai is actual blades that can just fly through the opponent without having to lay atop them for a moment. That's what I've seen anyway.

Also Byakuya has to maintain a sphere of safety form his own weapon. However Matsumoto could fight within hers without a problem, it's only dangerous with a swing of the hilt and mentally controlled targeting.

Technically, you could say Matsumoto's is superior. Wider range, pinpoint accuracy, no risk to self. It's just Matsumoto her self is far weaker and less experienced than Byakuya. She also lacks the motivation needed to ever make up the difference.

[Tavar]

I'd say it's not a matter of better, it's a matter of different focus: Byakuya's seems more focused on area denial and defense, where as Matsumoto's is more surgical in nature.

[Frozen_Feet]

Matsumoto's Shikai is very different from Byakuya's if you think of the difference between fine ash and a cloud of blades.

One of the most jarring is: you could possibly breathe in parts of Matsumoto's Shikai with barely noticing. Imagine what would happen to your lungs when she'd swing her blade...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Matsumoto's Shikai is very different from Byakuya's if you think of the difference between fine ash and a cloud of blades.

One of the most jarring is: you could possibly breathe in parts of Matsumoto's Shikai with barely noticing. Imagine what would happen to your lungs when she'd swing her blade...

I have the black lung. *cough*

[Somewhere]

Incidentally, I'd enjoy that as an explanation for Ukitake's condition more than soul tuberculosis.