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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Lix Lorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Honestly, I object to making a class that could do a hundred things if you took out one rule, but you insist on making it do fifty instead. Moral and ethical choices shouldn't be enforced by the rules.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Then you're playing the wrong game. D&D is built around the concept of morality and ethics not as abstract notions but as practical and objective forces of the physical universe. In D&D's standard cosmology, Good or Evil are no less real than gravity and follow rules just as strict.

    Not only that, but again, you're emulating a genre that's all about playing the super innocent, pure and loving girl gifted with magical powers to save the world from cartoonish and cackling evil.

    Specifically because she has such a pure and caring heart that it makes her super special and uniquely gifted.

    That IS the kind of show being emulated.

    How does taking away the alignment restriction here make any sort of sense? Or more to the point, would you honestly prefer a generic magical girl class?

    In which case, it begs the question, what's wrong with the Champion, Stargazer and Empath which are, for all purpose, generic magical girl classes.

    If you take away its purpose to allow people to roleplay as old school magical girl (with their specific brand of classic abilities) away, then what's the point? The class has no reason to exist then.

    In fact, I'll even illustrate my point further. You know what we call a generic Paladin? A Divine Champion. Why is the Paladin still something people use despite there being a perfectly good alternative?

    Because the Paladin is cool and fits a very specific niche of the genre like a glove. And there's nothing wrong with that.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Danakir View Post
    What people seem to misunderstand about Child of Light is that it's meant to emulate a very specific and deliberately idealistic vision of the magical girl genre. This is a young child's vision of the genre.

    Genre emulation is the primary design principle here, not satisfying those who prefer to multiclass a lot or those who prefer questionable morals in their characters. If that's what you want, there's much better PrCs for that which were designed with those kind of notions in mind.
    Alternately, play in Eberron, or at least without the idea of alignment as a straitjacket. Pure Is Not Good, and there is nothing in the world so cruel as a child's innocence.

    That said, I kinda got lost in the mire of backlogged posts. Excuse me while I go make sense of my own interjections.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Danakir View Post
    Then you're playing the wrong game. D&D is built around the concept of morality and ethics not as abstract notions but as practical and objective forces of the physical universe. In D&D's standard cosmology, Good or Evil are no less real than gravity and follow rules just as strict.

    Not only that, but again, you're emulating a genre that's all about playing the super innocent, pure and loving girl gifted with magical powers to save the world from cartoonish and cackling evil.

    Specifically because she has such a pure and caring heart that it makes her super special and uniquely gifted.

    That IS the kind of show being emulated.

    How does taking away the alignment restriction here make any sort of sense? Or more to the point, would you honestly prefer a generic magical girl class?

    In which case, it begs the question, what's wrong with the Champion, Stargazer and Empath which are, for all purpose, generic magical girl classes.

    If you take away its purpose to allow people to roleplay as old school magical girl (with their specific brand of classic abilities) away, then what's the point? The class has no reason to exist then.

    In fact, I'll even illustrate my point further. You know what we call a generic Paladin? A Divine Champion. Why is the Paladin still something people use despite there being a perfectly good alternative?

    Because the Paladin is cool and fits a very specific niche of the genre like a glove. And there's nothing wrong with that.
    I believe Lix is talking more about the idea that, for the most part, Good and Evil can easily provide the same powers to those who follow their respective ideologies. And is mostly pushing for the Child of Light to be a chassis more acceptive of the dark side of alignments, much like how paladins got the aligned variants.
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Owrtho View Post
    Radiant Armourer
    Interesting. A few comments.

    Requirements
    To become a Radiant Armourer, you must fulfil the following criteria:
    Feats: Radiant Arsenal, Twinned Device
    Skills: Craft (Armorsmithing) 8 Ranks, Craft (Weaponsmithing) 8 Ranks
    I'd remove Radiant Arsenal as a requirement. You get the feat a bunch of times as a class feature, and it's pretty unhelpful to Stargazers before they get into this class.

    Two good saves and medium BAB. Given the class can serve a front-line fighter type roll it seems to fit.
    Enhanced Armoury: Starting at first level, and every odd level thereafter, the Radiant Armourer gains an additional Enhanced Armament. However, unlike normally gaining them, those gained from this class must be split evenly between upgrading costumes and devices. You may put up to one rank more in either of them than the other, from ranks gained from this feature.
    I don't like the wording here. Might I suggest:
    At first level, you gain an additional Enhanced Armament. At every odd level after first, you gain a new Enhanced Armament, however these must be applied equally to Costume and Device, so the number of enhancements from this class feature that are applied to devices should never be more than one greater or less than the number applied to costumes.

    Enhanced Weaving: A Radiant Armourer is skilled at working with radiant armaments as well as the art of imbuing them. As such Radiant Armourer levels progress costume effects as if levels in champion.
    Wording here is unclear. Do you want total progression to be based on the champion costume progression, or just the progression from this class? Does the progression start over and total costume enhancements from both add together?
    If you tell me what you want, I can probably come up with a good wording. Personally, I think that the simplest thing would just be to switch over to the champion progression all together.

    Lastly, for every level in Radiant Armourer, you are treated as having two motes invested in twinned device. These motes do not count toward the normal limit of how many motes may be invested at any given time.
    Drop this to one mote, and give a free floating mote per level that may only be invested in costume effects. Given the number of class features that revolve around them, that would be very handy and it means you're not getting an autmatic ~8 devices (short by one mote) from this feat when you're likely to only want 4-6.

    Unfortunately, devices and costumes used by others are not as effective as those used by the Radiant Armourer herself. As such they only count as having half as many Enhanced Armament points in any given Enhanced Armament as they actually do (in the case of Enhanced Armaments that may only be taken once, they are not halved). Additionally, they do not benefit from any costume effects.
    Wording again. How about:
    Devices summoned into the hands of others are not quite as potent as those wielded by the Armourer herself. Allies do not gain the benefits of any costume effects. Additionally, any Enhanced Armament effect that is applied more than once to a device or costume loses half of those applications (round down). For example, a Costume that has the three Durable enhancements and one Agile enhancement when worn by the Armourer would instead only have one Durable and one Agile enhancement when worn by an ally.

    Blast Forged Device (Su):
    That's nifty. I like it.

    Allied Assault (Su): Starting at 7th level, the Radiant Armourer becomes able to imbue her allies attacks with power as well as her own. On any turn she makes an attack, or as a standard action, she may expend motes as if paying for an assault blast. However, rather than using it herself, she may grant it to the attack of an ally using one of her devices made before the start of her next turn. Unfortunately so may not unleash her full power this way. This may not be used with assault blasts that cost more motes than half the Radiant Armourer's evoker level.
    Stargazers cannot use Assault illuminations. Also, I don't see any significant benefit to this ability. Perhaps instead:
    Starting at 7th level, the Radiant Armourer becomes able to imbue her allies' attacks with power akin to illuminations. As a standard action, the Armourer may expend up to Evoker level in motes. Each ally who is wielding one of her devices may choose to apply the effects of a Blast/Assault illumination costing 1/2 of the motes spent this way (round down) to one attack made before the beginning of the Armorer's next turn. Using this effect must be declared before the attack is rolled.

    Basically, this allows several allies to benefit from the effect at once, but forces the armorer to sacrifice her own action to do so. Somebody may want to run the numbers on the mote-to-damage effeciency on this in case it's too powerful at 1/2. Compare with AOE/Multi-target blast illuminations.

    Effective Arsenal (Su): ...Motes applied to those devices and costumes may be divided among the effects at her discretion.
    I dislike this, it's very confusing and at this level the micro-managing involved becomes ridiculous.
    Instead, just make it so that mote allocations are identical to the ones on her own costumes.

    Hope that helps.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    I believe Lix is talking more about the idea that, for the most part, Good and Evil can easily provide the same powers to those who follow their respective ideologies. And is mostly pushing for the Child of Light to be a chassis more acceptive of the dark side of alignments, much like how paladins got the aligned variants.
    And the answer to that is no.

    You're asking me to make my creation more generic and less interesting. So in that regard, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    ...I just realized my hypothetical Champion has to use a feat slot to get Force of Personality.

    Also, is it just me or is the "dark magical girl" going to be hard to do as anything but fluff on a non-Child of Light build this time around? I'm still looking forward to seeing how it'll be done, I keep thinking of a three-level deal like Hellfire Warlock...

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Personally, I don't find it interesting now.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Personally, I don't find it interesting now.
    Then don't use it. It's more sensible than persisting in an argument you're destined to lose.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire View Post
    And the answer to that is no.

    You're asking me to make my creation more generic and less interesting. So in that regard, we'll have to agree to disagree.
    I didn't ask anything.

    I mean, I personally like it when Prestige Classes have stricter thematics than base classes. That is the point of Prestige Classes.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    I didn't ask anything.

    I mean, I personally like it when Prestige Classes have stricter thematics than base classes. That is the point of Prestige Classes.
    I know. Sorry if I seemed snippy. You did by your statement allow me to effectively nip this entire discussion at the bud. So my thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxae View Post
    Damn you Snowfire. I cried.
    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon777 View Post
    T_T I swear, you just made me cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Well, here's another for your sig, Snowfire.

    <struck dumb>

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by vasharanpaladin View Post
    Also, is it just me or is the "dark magical girl" going to be hard to do as anything but fluff on a non-Child of Light build this time around? I'm still looking forward to seeing how it'll be done, I keep thinking of a three-level deal like Hellfire Warlock...
    Give me another week, I've got something cooking for that.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire View Post
    Child of Light
    Requirements
    Basically a 1 feat entry - as good is going to be mostly assumed for the class, and if you're considering the PrC you're already playing a ToR character.

    Class Skill List: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [History] (Int), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
    Pretty good chassis. Full BAB, all good saves, but only d8 hd and extremely limited evoker progression. Don't worry there though, it's nowhere near as bad as it looks.
    Given the focus of this class, I'd go with Wizard BAB rather than full, and d6 HP. Also, 2+int skills is more than sufficient given the power of the class abilities and the complete lack of mention of skills in the rest of the class.

    A Child of Light gains additional costume elements as if her levels in Child were levels in her previous evoking class or Empath, whichever is more advantageous.
    Rather than this (which is confusing), I'd state that they gain one costume element at level 5, and another at level 10, and otherwise doesn't stack. This gives what amounts to Champion costume progression without needing to get into table-compatibility issues.

    Heritage Bound (Ex): Once awakened, the heritage of a Child can never be sealed again. It can only be completed. Once a character takes her first level in Child, she may not exit for the full ten levels until her heritage is fully awakened.
    This is a powerful limiter, but considering how powerful the rest of the class is, I don't think it's much of a penalty.

    Incorruptible (Ex): Children of Light are stalwart in their convictions and pure in their intentions as no others can be. No force may alter their Alignment less than their own freely chosen actions. Any action they may take that may alter their Alignment is fully disclosed to the player by the DM. This comes as a flash of insight to the Child. Whenever any force conspires to make the Child act outside the bounds of her Alignment, she not only disregards the influence but may roll a second saving throw to break out of it. If no saving throw was allowed, then one is allowed at a standard DC.
    A Child who ceases to be good or who willfully commits an evil act loses all Child of Light abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a Child of Light.
    This is what the Paladin code should have been. It would have prevented all of those 'and suddenly you fall' moments that bad GMs bring about, because the player could say "well, you never mentioned that this went against my code and it clearly says you have to in my class".

    Primordial Light (Su): The Children of Light’s power is that of another age, ancient and unbound unlike that of any other Evoker. Her garb is that of the Light’s own, and it cannot be content with the falsehood of a physical form. It burns with the Light of an ancient beacon, and grants her safety against those that would try to harm her.

    At 1st level, a Child of Light gains a special costume effect that is always active and gained in addition to all others. Furthermore, she automatically has (class level) motes invested into it, without lowering her mote pool and bypassing normal investment limits.

    Effect: The Child gains 20% concealment.

    Essence Boost: For every 3m invested in this effect, increase the Child of Light’s concealment by 5%, to a maximum of 50%. If at least 12m are invested, the Child gains Regeneration/Evil equal to one third of the motes invested. If 20m or more are invested, all lethal damage dealt to the Child is converted to nonlethal. If the Child is in any way immune to non-lethal damage, the damage counts as lethal for bypassing the immunity.
    OK, this is pretty broken, right there. A constant 20% concealment (without limiters like, 'while in bright light' or similar) effectively renders them immune to most forms of Precision damage (not criticals, though). Was that intended? I suggest adding a limiter on the concealment - some condition it needs to be happen, or else something that stops it. I'd also note that it's bypassed by Blindsight and similar (tremor sense, possibly true seeing) - it's unclear here what the intention is.
    Second, Regeneration renders all damage except what bypasses your regeneration to be non-lethal. Did you mean fast healing?

    Ancestral Seal (Su): At first level, the radiant heritage of the Child’s past blooms into life, reaching out from beyond the veil of death and finding purchase in the very core of the roaring fire that burns at her heart. This heritage brings many gifts, but it also sets the Child apart as the bearer of an ancient and eternal legacy that will, in time, change her utterly.

    At level one, the Child of Light’s device is fundamentally altered, becoming more a trinket than any real weapon. It becomes a potent focus for her Illuminations, allowing her to treat her Child of Light Evoker Level as full progression for all purposes. In addition, she becomes literally incapable of dealing any form of lethal damage. She always deals nonlethal damage, even to creatures immune to it. For the purposes of regeneration or fast healing, it counts as lethal damage.

    At level four, the Child’s connection to her ancestral Hero of Light expands further, wrapping her body in protective Light that secures her from many dangers. She gains a permanent effect as Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, and may add her Evoker Stat Modifier as an Insight bonus to AC.

    At level seven, the blazing radiance of the Child’s primordial power twines into being around her mind, securing her thoughts from the influence of those who might try to twist her to their will. She gains a permanent effect as a double strength Magic Circle against Evil.

    And as she attains her tenth level, the ancient fire of the Hero she is becoming erupts across her very being, changing her irrevocably into something far more than mortal. She will still age, and wither and die. But for her time amongst the living, she is forever set apart as one of the great forces of mortal Light of her generation.

    The Child of Light becomes an Outsider with the Native and Good subtypes. She gains immunity to acid, cold, electricity and petrification as well as Fire Resistance 10 and a +4 racial bonus against poison. In addition, her Magic Circle against Evil effect improves for her alone, granting her the effects of a permanent effect as Holy Aura.

    Any creature looking upon the reborn Hero of Light immediately intuits her as a creature of overwhelming and radiant purity. Unless the Child of Light takes explicit measure to conceal her alignment, it is as plain to sight as the glow of dawn over the horizon.
    Level one ability is unclear - can you create illuminations based on this modifed evoker level? Do you gain extra motes? Given how powerful the rest of the class is, I think it's quite reasonable to say no on both of these.

    The level four ability is mildly broken. Add 'while wearing her costume', and make it exclusive to her (instead of a 10' radius sphere) and it becomes (somewhat) more reasonable.

    For the seventh level ability, be more clear on what defines a 'double strength' circle of protection. I assume it applies to the +2 boni you get becoming +4 boni, yes?

    A Child of Light gains a bonus to all saving throws equal to her (Evoker Stat Modifier).
    State that it doesn't stack with divine grace. Otherwise fine (though on an all-good-saves PrC, this is more potent than you might think).

    She and all allies within her 30 feet radius mien may also completely ignore all morale or profane penalties.
    'mien'?
    I don't like that this allows you to ignore morale penalties. Demoralizing the magical girls (and getting it to stick) is a classic villian technique. Maybe break this out into a seperate ability, possibly based off of a standard-action, limited duration, power-of-friendship check?

    At level six, the Child of Light ignores any penalties to using Power of Friendship that may stem from their target being an Outsider (or similarly alien creature). Furthermore, should they succeed in bringing their new friend to the side of Good, they immediately go through a miraculous metamorphosis. Encased in a shell of light, they emerge from it as a butterfly, their entire being purified of their former sins and essence as an unique Outsider of the appropriate subtypes. Their appearance changes to suit the aesthetic of their new alignment but they are otherwise unique creatures. The DM should adapt the newly purified Outsider as best suits his campaign and the spirit of this ability.

    Furthermore, the purification process is extremely liberating and experiencing this bliss disposes the Outsider rather well toward her new friend. The Outsider is inclined to be helpful and friendly with the Child of Light unless given pressing reason not to be. If the Child of Light has access to cohorts, the Outsider may be chosen as one of their cohorts if they have no more than (HD-2) hit dice.
    For a 'mostly fluff' ability, this is pretty darn powerful. Picking up outsider cohorts via social-combat? I don't think I've ever seen anything like that outside of the 'broken things this diplomancer build can do' explanations on TO boards. I'd cut the 'good-metamorphosis' part entirely and replace with the previously mentioned 'morale-speech-of-friendship' ability.

    Once per day, the Child of Light may use Raise Dead as a spell-like ability with a Caster Level equal to her Evoker Level upon someone with whom she has a previously established positive relationship. This is a full-round action.
    Replace 'raise dead' with Psionic revivify - you get most of the same benefits, but the effect is a lot more reasonable for 1/day with no costs.

    At level nine, the Child may, once per day, drain their entire mote pool to cast Miracle with a Caster Level of their Evoker Level. Their mote pool remains empty after the use of this ability for one minute. The Child must still provide any material, focus, or experience components of the Miracle, and the Miracle cannot be a very powerful request.

    In addition, by voluntarily gaining four negative levels, the Child may request a more powerful miracle. In such a case, the Miracle does not cost the usual additional 5000 xp. These negative levels cannot be cured by any means and take effect regardless of any immunity to them. Only one of these negative levels is removed every 24 hours, but they never cause permanent level loss.

    These Miracles are requested from the Light, and are approved only if the Miracle would be for the good of all, not just that of the Child alone. Selfish Miracles are always refused.
    I'd specify that you may not use this ability while you have any negative levels. Other than that, fairly reasonable if very potent.

    Overall:
    The class is seriously overpowered as is. It has a lot of potential, fluff-wise, but I can't see any reason for ANY of the evoker classes NOT to take this, when all it costs them is a 1st level feat.
    Full BAB, all good saves, cleric-HP, ranger-skills, stat-of-choice to both Saves and AC and Full Evoker progression (while using your weapon of choice, no penalties on that one). That right there would be sufficient for any of the ToR base classes to want in, at the cost of a single feat.
    Add in constant concealment, regeneration, permanent spell effects (all rounds/level spells, I note), a 1/day free raise dead and a 1/day miracle (with the XP cost eliminated), and a capstone that gives you all the best stuff (that you don't already have) from an LA +2 template.
    The class is 'everything and the kitchen sink, and then you win the lottery'. It needs to be toned down on pretty much every point. The 'you may not stop taking levels until you finish the PrC' effect isn't a downside if you'd be insane not to take more levels in the first place.

    Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I just want to be clear on how the overall class feels to me.
    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by kestrel404; 2013-02-18 at 10:03 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Given the focus of this class, I'd go with Wizard BAB rather than full, and d6 HP. Also, 2+int skills is more than sufficient given the power of the class abilities and the complete lack of mention of skills in the rest of the class.
    I may cut the HD and I have now cut the skills to 4+Int. I am not cutting the BAB, mainly as that locks the class to Stargazer and Empath - due to them being the only ones who get the Sharpshooter Component.


    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Rather than this (which is confusing), I'd state that they gain one costume element at level 5, and another at level 10, and otherwise doesn't stack. This gives what amounts to Champion costume progression without needing to get into table-compatibility issues.
    The thing is, it's not meant to be Champion progression. This is meant to give Stargazer a fighting chance in the costume department - as costume was a rather big thing for these MGs - but not elevate them to the point of Champion.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    This is what the Paladin code should have been. It would have prevented all of those 'and suddenly you fall' moments that bad GMs bring about, because the player could say "well, you never mentioned that this went against my code and it clearly says you have to in my class".
    Definitely agree with you there. But at least we have this fixed in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    OK, this is pretty broken, right there. A constant 20% concealment (without limiters like, 'while in bright light' or similar) effectively renders them immune to most forms of Precision damage (not criticals, though). Was that intended? I suggest adding a limiter on the concealment - some condition it needs to be happen, or else something that stops it. I'd also note that it's bypassed by Blindsight and similar (tremor sense, possibly true seeing) - it's unclear here what the intention is.
    Second, Regeneration renders all damage except what bypasses your regeneration to be non-lethal. Did you mean fast healing?
    The concealment has been fixed in that it only grants the miss chance inherent (I am not making it miss chance because that is so easy to bypass that it might as well not be there if I do). As to Regeneration, yes, I know. That's kinda the point. Once you hit a certain level with this, you just don't take lethal damage. Fast healing would work, but wouldn't be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Level one ability is unclear - can you create illuminations based on this modifed evoker level? Do you gain extra motes? Given how powerful the rest of the class is, I think it's quite reasonable to say no on both of these.
    This has been - hopefully - clarified. In case it has not been.

    You prepare Illuminations with your full modified Evoker Level. However if you lose your device, you're basically screwed. As all your Illuminations will be full EL Illuminations and - therefore - you won't be able to evoke them.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    The level four ability is mildly broken. Add 'while wearing her costume', and make it exclusive to her (instead of a 10' radius sphere) and it becomes (somewhat) more reasonable.
    I've made it reliant on being in costume. Beyond that, I am rather hesitant to change further.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    For the seventh level ability, be more clear on what defines a 'double strength' circle of protection. I assume it applies to the +2 boni you get becoming +4 boni, yes?
    You assume correctly. In all honesty, I really don't see why I need to clarify this, but if you insist I will.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    State that it doesn't stack with divine grace. Otherwise fine (though on an all-good-saves PrC, this is more potent than you might think).
    Done.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    'mien'?
    I don't like that this allows you to ignore morale penalties. Demoralizing the magical girls (and getting it to stick) is a classic villian technique. Maybe break this out into a seperate ability, possibly based off of a standard-action, limited duration, power-of-friendship check?
    The thing is, MGs being able to just shrug off that demoralisation is a very big thing too. They wait, and they listen, and then look and just go "No". At which point awesome smackdown generally ensues.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    For a 'mostly fluff' ability, this is pretty darn powerful. Picking up outsider cohorts via social-combat? I don't think I've ever seen anything like that outside of the 'broken things this diplomancer build can do' explanations on TO boards. I'd cut the 'good-metamorphosis' part entirely and replace with the previously mentioned 'morale-speech-of-friendship' ability.
    I think you've missed the part here that you have to already be applicable to have a cohort to get that bit. This is not free Leadership. To specify:

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire
    If the Child of Light has access to cohorts, the Outsider may be chosen as one of their cohorts if they have no more than (HD-2) hit dice.
    Bolded for emphasis.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Replace 'raise dead' with Psionic revivify - you get most of the same benefits, but the effect is a lot more reasonable for 1/day with no costs.
    Ehhhhhhh, no. Revivify has way too short a period in which it can be used. I may play with the time - make it rounds equal to class level after the end of the encounter - but I'm not making this ability one that becomes useless if you can't get to a person within a round.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    I'd specify that you may not use this ability while you have any negative levels. Other than that, fairly reasonable if very potent.
    Added in with a slight modification.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Full BAB, all good saves, cleric-HP, ranger-skills, stat-of-choice to both Saves and AC and Full Evoker progression (while using your weapon of choice, no penalties on that one). That right there would be sufficient for any of the ToR base classes to want in, at the cost of a single feat.
    Some of this has been changed. Please seem my reasons otherwise. And also look at my other PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Add in constant concealment, regeneration, permanent spell effects (all rounds/level spells, I note), a 1/day free raise dead and a 1/day miracle (with the XP cost eliminated), and a capstone that gives you all the best stuff (that you don't already have) from an LA +2 template.
    Concealment is no longer as broken as it inadvertently was. The only one of the perma spell likes - that isn't perma any more - that is round/level is Lesser Globe. Circle against Evil is 10 min/level. And considering you pay ten levels for that template - and I don't give the stat bonuses, spells, holy touch, fast healing equal to HD and a few other things I can't remember offhand - I don't see it as really that bad.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire View Post
    The thing is, it's not meant to be Champion progression. This is meant to give Stargazer a fighting chance in the costume department - as costume was a rather big thing for these MGs - but not elevate them to the point of Champion.
    I just don't like leaving things open to interpretation. Switching between costume progressions is a fairly hazy idea - if you're a Stargazer 7/Child of light 5, do you get 2 or 3 costume elements? By one interpretation (you switch to Empath progression completely), you've got 3, and by the other (only your CoL progression is Empath), you've still only got 2 at 12th level, and won't get another for 2 more levels. Or possibly one more level.

    This is why I nitpick wording a lot - when I design a mechanic, I don't want to have to explain it beyond the text of the mechanic. Examples also help for this.

    The concealment has been fixed in that it only grants the miss chance inherent (I am not making it miss chance because that is so easy to bypass that it might as well not be there if I do). As to Regeneration, yes, I know. That's kinda the point. Once you hit a certain level with this, you just don't take lethal damage. Fast healing would work, but wouldn't be correct.
    Change concealment to miss chance - concealment is a keyword that allows for stealth/hide checks. I'm pretty sure you mean just a miss chance.

    As for always taking non-lethal damage, what's the point of the 20 mote effect then? That's why I originally thought you meant fast healing. Is it just a way to remove the vulnerability to Evil damage?

    You prepare Illuminations with your full modified Evoker Level. However if you lose your device, you're basically screwed. As all your Illuminations will be full EL Illuminations and - therefore - you won't be able to evoke them.
    And if your device is a Stance?

    I've made it reliant on being in costume. Beyond that, I am rather hesitant to change further.
    I'm still pretty wary of this effect. It's just too powerful, IMO, for something that's basically an always-on. It eliminates more than 1/3rd of all possible magical threats to the character and probably her allies as well.

    The thing is, MGs being able to just shrug off that demoralisation is a very big thing too. They wait, and they listen, and then look and just go "No". At which point awesome smackdown generally ensues.
    It's not a huge thing, either way. Just seemed a touch excessive for a single effect.

    I think you've missed the part here that you have to already be applicable to have a cohort to get that bit. This is not free Leadership.
    Hmm, I missed that part.

    Ehhhhhhh, no. Revivify has way too short a period in which it can be used. I may play with the time - make it rounds equal to class level after the end of the encounter - but I'm not making this ability one that becomes useless if you can't get to a person within a round.
    You do know that revivify works for more than one round after the death, right? The penalties just keep getting worse the longer you wait. The difference between Revivify and Raise dead is that it costs the user XP instead of cash-resources. In the case of the Pathfinder ability, it instead bestows negative levels (that get healed at a constant rate).

    While it's true that at this level Clerics will regularly have this spell handy, they're going to have a limited number of 1k gp diamonds on hand. The only thing I'm pointing out here is it makes the 'revolving door of death' thing a lot more obvious and breaks a lot of the tension that death involves. If you've got to get to someone ASAP after death to get them back, or if you cannot simply say, "Oh no, two of my party members have died, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to bring one back", that leaves a lot more sting in the idea of character death than the other way round.


    As for this not being seriously powerful (and before I look at the next PrC), I'll re-write Chaitali with 2 levels of this (and to keep things within the Gestalt rules, only 2 levels of Midnight Occultist) and send that over with an analysis of her revised combat potential, as well as what she'd look like at level 17 after finishing out the class.

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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    I just don't like leaving things open to interpretation. Switching between costume progressions is a fairly hazy idea - if you're a Stargazer 7/Child of light 5, do you get 2 or 3 costume elements? By one interpretation (you switch to Empath progression completely), you've got 3, and by the other (only your CoL progression is Empath), you've still only got 2 at 12th level, and won't get another for 2 more levels. Or possibly one more level.
    Your CoL counts as Empath for costume. Your levels in Stargazer act as normal.


    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Change concealment to miss chance - concealment is a keyword that allows for stealth/hide checks. I'm pretty sure you mean just a miss chance.
    I did not. If you look here it will likely make a lot more sense. You are gaining what is in effect miss chance, but you are gaining it from concealment, not anything else. The reason for this is because that makes it still effective once you get into higher levels and people start busting out True Sight and other abilities that allow you to utterly ignore the effects of miss chance. This, being concealment, does not count as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    As for always taking non-lethal damage, what's the point of the 20 mote effect then? That's why I originally thought you meant fast healing. Is it just a way to remove the vulnerability to Evil damage?
    Basically, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    And if your device is a Stance?
    Please note the key point made in Seal (Staff)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire
    At level one, the Child of Light’s device is fundamentally altered, becoming more a trinket than any real weapon.
    I will make that a mechanical lock if I have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    I'm still pretty wary of this effect. It's just too powerful, IMO, for something that's basically an always-on. It eliminates more than 1/3rd of all possible magical threats to the character and probably her allies as well.
    Almost all of which are hitting the "basically useless" point at the level you get this.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    You do know that revivify works for more than one round after the death, right? The penalties just keep getting worse the longer you wait. The difference between Revivify and Raise dead is that it costs the user XP instead of cash-resources. In the case of the Pathfinder ability, it instead bestows negative levels (that get healed at a constant rate).

    While it's true that at this level Clerics will regularly have this spell handy, they're going to have a limited number of 1k gp diamonds on hand. The only thing I'm pointing out here is it makes the 'revolving door of death' thing a lot more obvious and breaks a lot of the tension that death involves. If you've got to get to someone ASAP after death to get them back, or if you cannot simply say, "Oh no, two of my party members have died, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to bring one back", that leaves a lot more sting in the idea of character death than the other way round.
    I will think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    As for this not being seriously powerful (and before I look at the next PrC), I'll re-write Chaitali with 2 levels of this (and to keep things within the Gestalt rules, only 2 levels of Midnight Occultist) and send that over with an analysis of her revised combat potential, as well as what she'd look like at level 17 after finishing out the class.
    I never said this wasn't powerful. It's designed to be powerful. But it does not, to me, break the system. I look forward to seeing your pm.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire View Post
    Light’s Artist
    ...
    Class Skill List: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [History] (Int), Knowledge [Local] (Int), Knowledge [Nobility and Royalty] (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha) Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
    ...
    Hit Dice: d10
    ...
    Good EL progression, good saves, full BAB, d10 HD. This a strong chassis, but it's like that for a very good reason.
    And 9/10 evoker progression. So no downsides beyond losing 1 evoker level, and you're boosting at least 1 save, and 2 of HD, BAB & Skills in exchange.

    Remembered Weaving (Ex):
    Still no downside.

    Unbreakable (Su):
    ...
    Effect: The Artist gains DR 1/-, as well as 25% fortification, giving her a chance to negate any sneak attack or critical hit and force damage to be rolled normally.
    Force damage? Fortification does not normally protect against force damage. If this is intentional, you might want to be a bit more clear.

    Light’s Embrace (Su):
    Level 1 effect, I like it. Very flavorful and finally gives a good use for Power of Friendship. May want to move it to level 2, however.

    Level 4 effect - you seem to have a great love of ignoring immunities that exist for good reasons. Why should a light artist be able to play with something's mind when it's either naturally immune to such or has gone out of it's way to prevent it? The rest is fine, but ignoring immunity to mind affecting is completely excessive.

    Level 10 effect - why, exactly, is End of Strife 1/encounter part of this class feature? I can't see any connection to the other mechanics of Light's Embrace at all. While it's thematically linked, so is the rest of the class. Unless it's solely targetted against the recipient of the ribbon, it should be a seperate class feature entirely. Move it to a new level 9 class feature and make it 1/day (a level 9 spell effect 1/encounter at level 17 is just right out, IMO).

    Radiant Wonder (Ex):
    Looks good, but I recommend you change the levels where you get those effects just to balance the class progression a bit more (otherwise, you're getting big boosts at levels 7 & 10). Move it to levels 6 & 9 and you fill in your dead levels.

    Shining Path (Su):
    Nice. I like this. There are indeed ways that this can end badly, despite all the limitations placed on it.

    Triumph of Light (Ex):
    Also fine, it's 1 round/encounter of near invulnerability (I can think of a couple ways around it, but they're limited in scope). Fluffy, useful, interesting.

    Overall:
    There's no reason for the PrC's chassis to be as good as it is. If you'd given it slightly better HD & skills, it would be 'best chassis possible'. I see no reason why a class whose primary mechanic is based on touch attacks needs full BAB, and I'd honestly drop the good will save (by your very nature you're far too in-tune with others to harden your heart completely) and reduce HP to d8 (at most). Skills I can easily see as 6+int, for all social skills + perform & tumble. Speaking of, add Disguise, Forgery, Kowledge (Architecture) and Tumble to class skill list - they're artistic skills in addition to whatever other uses they may have.

    My minor-rebuild on Chaitali is going to take a bit, as my muse has me pointed in a different direction ATM.

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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by kestrel404 View Post
    Force damage? Fortification does not normally protect against force damage. If this is intentional, you might want to be a bit more clear.
    Pretty sure she (I think she) doesn't mean that.
    It forces critical hits and sneak attacks to do normal damage, rather than interacting with Force damage as in the energy type.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Pretty sure she (I think she) doesn't mean that.
    It forces critical hits and sneak attacks to do normal damage, rather than interacting with Force damage as in the energy type.
    Y'know, my gender is right up there beneath my picture. And it's male

    I mean, seriously folks

    But yeah, it just forces damage to be rolled normally. That is directly stolen from the wording on the fortification for Defiant
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowfire View Post
    Y'know, my gender is right up there beneath my picture. And it's male

    I mean, seriously folks

    But yeah, it just forces damage to be rolled normally. That is directly stolen from the wording on the fortification for Defiant
    yea but sometimes its easy to miss that and just aim for whatever gender the avatar is.


    So, I'm working on folding all of these into my games setting, and for my next planned game i want to make my BBEG a Magical Girl. I have a whole plot worked out, but I'm not sure how to handle power of friendship in a villain. I'm going to decide that players are auto immune to it, and in the BBEG back story i was thinking of doing something weird with it. Would you say a captured person would be able to affect there captor if the captor regularly visited them. Sort of a reverse of the normal situation? I know its not RAW but i wonder if it would be stretching things to far.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    So, I'm working on folding all of these into my games setting, and for my next planned game i want to make my BBEG a Magical Girl. I have a whole plot worked out, but I'm not sure how to handle power of friendship in a villain. I'm going to decide that players are auto immune to it, and in the BBEG back story i was thinking of doing something weird with it. Would you say a captured person would be able to affect there captor if the captor regularly visited them. Sort of a reverse of the normal situation? I know its not RAW but i wonder if it would be stretching things to far.
    It depends on the BBEG.
    If they're Stupid Evil then it would only work because magic.
    If they're a well-intentioned-extremist, it would work by convincing people that the ends justify the means.
    If they're a woobie-destroyer-of-worlds, or are a cult of personality of some kind, it'd work by inspiring sympathy and adoration.

    As for the latter, that sounds like a great plotline.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    So, I'm working on folding all of these into my games setting, and for my next planned game i want to make my BBEG a Magical Girl. I have a whole plot worked out, but I'm not sure how to handle power of friendship in a villain. I'm going to decide that players are auto immune to it, and in the BBEG back story i was thinking of doing something weird with it. Would you say a captured person would be able to affect there captor if the captor regularly visited them. Sort of a reverse of the normal situation? I know its not RAW but i wonder if it would be stretching things to far.
    ...Second season of Yu-Gi-Oh! G/X. Similar to Lix's "cult of personality" idea, in fact; the villain befriends the living crap out of someone, who then becomes a villain themselves. Without changing anything from how the hero would do it.

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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by vasharanpaladin View Post
    ...Second season of Yu-Gi-Oh! G/X. Similar to Lix's "cult of personality" idea, in fact; the villain befriends the living crap out of someone, who then becomes a villain themselves. Without changing anything from how the hero would do it.
    The main thing is what would be the acceptable bounds of taste so to speak. I mainly wonder if the situation i outlined where the MG is the imprisoned one but the captor still stops to talk to them daily would be feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    It depends on the BBEG.
    If they're a woobie-destroyer-of-worlds, or are a cult of personality of some kind, it'd work by inspiring sympathy and adoration.

    As for the latter, that sounds like a great plotline.
    That is the plot, i have a whole thing worked out where her adventuring party failed to stop an ultimate evil from devouring the material plane she lived on, so know she travels from one to the other wrecking things and gaining its attention so it eats other peoples as well. The first person she met was a powerful wizard investigating what happened, she started talking, he listened, and then next thing you know the wizard is spouting badly interpreted Nietzsche and trying to destroy the world. Then once he gets stopped she is still out there spreading the "good word"
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2013-02-19 at 09:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Just had an idea, for all the talk of people wanting wide beams, why not just say for every rank up you make the beam shape you can instead increase the width instead of the length by 5 feet.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Just had an idea, for all the talk of people wanting wide beams, why not just say for every rank up you make the beam shape you can instead increase the width instead of the length by 5 feet.
    Wide Beam shape component, same cost, but provides a cone 10' in length per motecost spent.

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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Personally, cone wouldn't do it. I'd want a line, but multiple squares wide. So like Dragonus said would work great for me. xD
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Except lines don't work that way, else they wouldn't be lines?

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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by vasharanpaladin View Post
    Except lines don't work that way, else they wouldn't be lines?
    It's still a line, its just a wider line. When i play this i want to play nanoha, and that means befriending people with a bean to make Wing Gundam Zero feel inadequate.
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    Default Re: Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    It's still a line, its just a wider line. When i play this i want to play nanoha, and that means befriending people with a bean to make Wing Gundam Zero feel inadequate.
    No, the rules for lines ate that you put a straight, zero-width line from the source of the effect to a point in range (with line of effect), then apply the effect to all squares the longer touches. Otherwise your directions would be limited by the grid you're using.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    No, the rules for lines ate that you put a straight, zero-width line from the source of the effect to a point in range (with line of effect), then apply the effect to all squares the longer touches. Otherwise your directions would be limited by the grid you're using.
    Possible solution? Model it as several parallel lines, each with start/endpoints offset by 5 feet from the next line.
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