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    Default Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil? I am not trying to say Belkar is not evil but I believe based solely one the effect of spells and spell like ability's that have an effect based on alignment it is possible for Belkar to be neutral.
    Last edited by somethingrandom; 2012-10-18 at 12:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Word of Giant, and the time he got hit by the one spell in the first arc, and the whole thing with Miko and the lead sheet, and NO BELKAR IS NOT NEUTRAL

    EDIT: It was Unholy Blight.
    Last edited by Incom; 2012-10-18 at 07:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by somethingrandom View Post
    I am not trying to say Belkar is not evil but I believe based solely one the effect of spells and spell like ability's that have an effect based on alignment it is possible for Belkar to be natural.
    That sentence makes very little sense.

    "I am not trying to say that Belkar is not evil, I just wish to comment that, by limiting allowable evidence to one specific category, it is possible for Belkar to be [either typoed neutral or non-sequitur natural]."

    As Incom has pointed out to you, no (assuming the typo; if you actually meant "natural" then yes Belkar is natural but Belkar not being a cyborg has nothing to do with him not being evil). But what if that was actually the case? Why would it matter?
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Technically, the effects of Unholy Blight don't quite prove Belkar to be evil. He was clearly not sickened by it, but Neutral targets (as well as Good targets who succeed on a Will save) only take damage to the spell, and while we don't have any visual clues for him taking damage, it's still a possibility.

    I'm not saying Belkar is not Evil, it's made clear at many points of the story that he is, but as far as game mechanics go, no, we never saw any effect "proving" he is Evil.

    Also of note, but off-topic, the Unholy Blight incident shows V was Good-aligned back then. Unless it's just another case of the Giant not following the rules to a tee (so neutral characters also get sickened by Unholy Blight in the OotS universe, something that would invalidate the entire argument above ). It's most likely due to the fact the characters weren't really fleshed out during the beginning of the story, though.
    Last edited by Roland Itiative; 2012-10-18 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    As far as I know we have only his personal statements and his efforts to dodge Detect Evil (which would return the same result for a Neutral or Good individual) to prove that Belkar is Evil, beyond Rich's own out-of-comic statements and the fact that he's, y'know, obviously evil from a narrative standpoint.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Well, there is this, where he says "I'm chaotic evil!" Not game-mechanical, but then there hasn't been any of that kind of evidence for Xykon, either. Except, well, y'know, lich.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    On a side question about the Unholy Blight, why was V sickened. Shouldn't that should only happen to good characters?

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redgoblin View Post
    On a side question about the Unholy Blight, why was V sickened. Shouldn't that should only happen to good characters?
    See Roland Itiative above...


    Then in other news:

    For my part, as I haven't played D&D since Advanced was replaced by 2nd Ed, I am not sure about the effect of his being deafened by Durkon in the last sequence of strips. Does this happen only to Evil or also to Neutral characters?
    Last edited by Caractacus; 2012-10-18 at 12:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    According to the srd it affects "Any non good creature"
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redgoblin View Post
    On a side question about the Unholy Blight, why was V sickened. Shouldn't that should only happen to good characters?
    V's character hadn't really developed at that point. If you want total consistency, it's not much of a stretch to say that pre-Familicide, V lives on the border between Neutral and Good, and could be on either side of it depending on his/her most recent actions.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    As Rich famously said "what comic have you been reading!!!??"

    Yes Belkar is EVIL. There is your Mecanical a Diva pronouces him as such. Do you need any more proof?

    More evil deeds murder without cause Oracle comes to mind
    Last edited by denthor; 2012-10-18 at 02:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    How about when Durkon used Holy? Belkar became deaf because he was too close to the spell. I think that would do it.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Wow. I read somethingrandom's question entirely different than so many folks here.

    It seems pretty clear to me that SR believes that the Belkster is evil. He's not saying otherwise. He's just asking for game-mechanics related evidence. Rich saying so doesn't fit the bill; Belkar himself saying so doesn't fit the bill, either. The question is just: Here's a comic fact; what mechanical evidence supports this fact.

    Lots o' folks jumping on SR for no real reason here...
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shale View Post
    V's character hadn't really developed at that point. If you want total consistency, it's not much of a stretch to say that pre-Familicide, V lives on the border between Neutral and Good, and could be on either side of it depending on his/her most recent actions.
    I thought V was explicitly Good Pre-famlicide? I vaguely recall someone saying that casting that spell AT LEAST put him into Neutral.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    Wow. I read somethingrandom's question entirely different than so many folks here.

    It seems pretty clear to me that SR believes that the Belkster is evil. He's not saying otherwise. He's just asking for game-mechanics related evidence. Rich saying so doesn't fit the bill; Belkar himself saying so doesn't fit the bill, either. The question is just: Here's a comic fact; what mechanical evidence supports this fact.

    Lots o' folks jumping on SR for no real reason here...
    I did not jump on him I provided the in comic mechanics A being of pure law and good along with a chart of progression and observed behavior.

    Further more a random killing for no reason the oracle. As proof of an evil intent and formed thought into action.

    If we are looking for game mechanics. I once knew a player that said "if I take multiple random peasants into a duegon and throw them down the stairs to set off the traps I do not want to encounter" That would not be an evil act after all I am a Paladin.

    So evil is in the eye of the player character.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    I did not jump on him I provided the in comic mechanics A being of pure law and good along with a chart of progression and observed behavior.

    Further more a random killing for no reason the oracle. As proof of an evil intent and formed thought into action.
    Neither of those are game mechanics, i.e. something explicitly stated in the rules. Example: Belkar was deafened by Durkon's holy word - this is mechanical evidence that Belkar is non-Good (that is, Neutral or Evil) and has a level equal to Durkon's caster level for that spell.


    If we are looking for game mechanics. I once knew a player that said "if I take multiple random peasants into a duegon and throw them down the stairs to set off the traps I do not want to encounter" That would not be an evil act after all I am a Paladin.
    (emphasis mine)
    The bolded sentence is the one that is wrong in that line of reasoning. Paladins are not incapable of performing evil acts - if that were true, there would be no rules for what to do when a Paladin commits an evil act. Since there are (the atonement spell exists for that very reason, not to mention an entire paragraph in the Paladin class description), we know that bolded sentence is incorrect.

    So evil is in the eye of the player character.
    No.


    I agree that folks are jumping on the OP without just cause - he's just asking for something like holy word that shows, mechanically, Belkar to be evil, rather than just non-good. He's not questioning the fact that Belkar is evil, just wanting to know if there's any mechanics that prove it in-comic. (Unless he's actually saying Belkar could be neutral for realsies, in which case the rage is entirely appropriate, but still hasn't answered his question.)
    Last edited by Sorator; 2012-10-18 at 04:34 PM.
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    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorator View Post
    He's not questioning the fact that Belkar is evil, just wanting to know if there's any mechanics that prove it in-comic.
    I would like to add that the comic itself does not follow said mechanics completely, so the Word of the Giant is a much higher authority than any mechanics. And the Word states obviously that Belkar is Evil.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Depending on how one looks at it, the authorities of Mount Celestia measuring his evilness in Kilonazis might count.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    I believe there's never been anything in the game mechanics that proves that Haley isn't a man...

    A red-haired dude with long hair, wearing a top with two balls of crumpled tissue napkins inside it... (Of course, PCs and NPCs refer to Haley using "she" and "her", but there's nothing that proves that they aren't wrong.)
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Personally, I find the question of whether Belkar is natural to be a much more interesting thing to ponder than another alignment discussion.
    Last edited by ti'esar; 2012-10-18 at 07:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    I believe there's never been anything in the game mechanics that proves that Haley isn't a man...
    That's because there are no mechanics for gender... Also, totally missing the point of the discussion topic.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    While it's not actually in the comic, Rich posted a round-by-round account of the second fight between the order and Miko to explain how she defeated them. During the fight, she hits Belkar with Smite Evil and seems to get the effects of it.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    I would say that Belkar himself saying he's Chaotic Evil counts. This is a comic where they refer to Game Mechanics in universe. Alignment is a game mechanic. It's not hard to believe that Belkar was refering to the specific mechanic.

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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Personally, I find the question of whether Belkar is natural to be a much more interesting thing to ponder than another alignment discussion.
    Webster's has "One born without the usual powers of reason or understanding; an idiot." as one of the possible definitions for the noun.

    Given Belkar's alleged INT score, I guess one could say he's a natural.
    Last edited by lio45; 2012-10-18 at 08:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Belkar, as a mental construct manifesting as either pixels or ink, is not natural.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Oh, God, Rich, PLEASE get well soon!
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaulguard View Post
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki_42 View Post
    I would say that Belkar himself saying he's Chaotic Evil counts. This is a comic where they refer to Game Mechanics in universe. Alignment is a game mechanic. It's not hard to believe that Belkar was refering to the specific mechanic.
    Well, it isn't a game mechanic in the sense that the OP means it. Otherwise class names like 'Ranger' are also 'game mechanics' as they define classes. We are asking about spell effects, extra damage from Smite Evil etc.


    In fact, we are asking about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stu42 View Post
    While it's not actually in the comic, Rich posted a round-by-round account of the second fight between the order and Miko to explain how she defeated them. During the fight, she hits Belkar with Smite Evil and seems to get the effects of it.
    Exactly the sort of thing that the OP was asking about, I should imagine...
    Last edited by Caractacus; 2012-10-19 at 01:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Well, on the top of my head, I can say that he killed the oracle for no reason. And a gnome for no reason (when he and Haley and Celia left Azure City). He was friend with a slavery guy (buggy Lou) and almost let his get away with some slaves. He always suggests to slit any prisoner throat (except for Samantha, that he suggested to sell her to slavery).

    These are good enough reasons for me.
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    Default Re: Has there been a game mechanical effect that proves Belkar is evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    That's because there are no mechanics for gender... Also, totally missing the point of the discussion topic.
    You say "missing the point of the discussion topic." I say "observing the absence of point in the discussion topic."

    But since the OP is apparently not interested in explaining what it would prove if there actually was no "game mechanical effect" that proves Belkar's evil...
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-10-20 at 08:45 AM.
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