New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 138
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Introduction
    I was watching some playthroughs of Space Marine on youtube out of a sort of morbid curiosity recently (short version: Ultramarines ignore gravity because they are Mary Sues- good voice work,) but what what struck me was how the game seemed desperately eager to blather on about faith vs. corruption, initiative vs. obedience, sacrifice vs. loyalty etc. etc. etc.- exactly the kind of ethical questions that are inherent to the setting's sociopolitics, metaphysics, and war stories in general. But it gives them no teeth whatsoever.

    Basically, 40K has always been about choosing between two evils, but the question of what the lesser evil is tends to get ignored in favour of a firm emphasis on Moar Dakka. So I got to wondering- what if Bioware had a sudden paroxysm of sanity, stopped making games that sustain horrendous compound fractures in narrative logic due to head-on collisions between 'world-shattering personal choices' and 'a predetermined sequence of significant events', and decided to tuck into these meaty themes in a way that proprietors of the WH40K franchise seemingly lacked the balls to do(?)

    (Disclaimer: My knowledge of the setting is far from comprehensive, so please mentally gloss over any glitches in terminology or organisation.)

    EDIT: Other posters have pointed out that the Space Marines would actually be an awkward fit for some of the scenarios outlined below, which might be better filled by an Inquisitor or Imperial Guard commander. I've tried to modify the starting scenario to accommodate this, and I'd suggest the following character options:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Inquisitor
    Broad Authority: Bonus to Social skills, reduced reprisals for overstepping bounds
    The Abyss Gazes: Bonus to Immaterium skills, vulnerable to personal corruption

    Imperial Guard
    Conscription: Can recruit new troops, larger number of units in field, easier pacification
    Ties to Home: Better relations with natives, vulnerable to global corruption

    Space Marine
    War Logistics: Bonus to Combat and Tech Dogma skills
    Indoctrination: Resistant to personal corruption, many choices not available until global corruption rises

    EDIT EDIT: On reflection, when I give a Bioware comparison, people seem to assume I'm talking about things like a multi-species crew and gratuitous romance options. To clarify, I'm talking more about the existence of moral quandaries that can substantially affect significant story outcomes. ...If that's of any interest.


    The Premise
    You (an Inquisitor/Imperial Guard commander/mid-level Space Marine officer) arrive on this planet (an industrial Hive World.) There's an ork infestation, but it's mostly a cover for a daemonic takeover, working on a subtle level. To make matters worse, Warp Storms cut you off from supplies and communications shortly after arrival. As time progresses, the default level of corruption among the populace and NPCs will rise, eventually consuming everyone. The game requires uncovering and countering the daemonic threat in due time, by hunting down cabals and, if worst comes to worst, sealing the gate that allows them direct entry to the material world. Unfortunately, many of the decisions that give you a material advantage over the orkish horde and the daemons' physical manifestations also make you and yours more susceptible to spiritual corruption.

    Hypothetical Examples:
    Spoiler
    Show

    * Ordering waves of cannon-fodder into the fray. One of the units breaks and runs- how do you discipline them? Standard protocol demands they be shot to the last man, but you could just execute the commanders/ringleaders, or even turn a blind eye.

    * Alternatively, a civilian revolt among the gangland and working classes could break out due to the privations of the war effort, with much the same effects, possibly aggravated by the diversion of essential supplies to the world's aristocrats, or encouraged by your leniency. Do you punish the offenders, and/or insist on fairer distribution of rations?

    * One of your units is pinned down and surrounded, and needs to be relieved. Your superiors are ordering a retreat. Do you leave them to die, ignore the order, dispatch a small rescue team, and/or go personally?

    * One of the junior supervisors in a manufactorum has streamlined production by forgoing some of the more elaborate ritual obeisances to the Machine God normally involved in assembly. This infuriates the chief techpriest, but could secure steady supplies of ammunition and equipment. Do you overrule the elder or side with him?

    * Your sanctioned psyker has been showing signs of increased instability, and requests leave to return to his training school for re-assessment. Psykers are particularly vulnerable to daemonic influence, but they are also invaluable war assets- do you give him leave to go, deny the request, or grant him regular periods of meditation to offset the strain?

    * One of your elder techpriests confesses that a visiting inquisitor left a captive Daemon in his care. He fears that the bindings upon it will not last much longer, but lacks the knowledge and authority to dispatch it safely. The daemon could prove a vital source of information, but any deal struck with it will require a payment in souls- civilians being the most convenient source- or strain the abjurations that bind it.

    * You capture a grimoire of chaos magics from one of the most prominent underground cults (their membership, incidentally, fuelled in large part by the grim living conditions you've imposed.) It contains recipes for various highly potent spells, all sealed with blood or living sacrifice. Using them can easily tip the odds in your favour, but will stain your own soul.

    * One of your junior manufactorum supervisors uncovers an ancient scientific archive, and in collusion with your chapter's genealogist and head librarian, suggests that a potent retroviral formula could endow your militia units with some fraction of a space marine's physical and mental endowments. The downside is a substantial risk of subject mutation. Would you agree to the idea, and how would you handle any resultant mutants?

    * While the battle yet rages, but the prospects for victory look grim, you receive the order to escape with whatever forces you can salvage and execute an Order Exterminatus from safety in orbit- turning the planet's surface to glass to save it becoming a daemon world. Do you stall long enough to allow a mass evacuation of civilians, just pull back your core regiments, or belay the order entirely?

    Naturally, any choice not expressly condoned by The Catholic Space Nazi Handbook will increase your Corruption, making it easier for daemonic influence to mindrape or mutate you, and/or quite possibly your followers. But you also need ammunition. And popular support. And a personal race of atomic supermen.

    (The irony is that, for an institution that seeks to stamp out Chaos heresy, the Imperium is probably the single biggest net provider of violence, pestilence, decadence and decay in the inhabited galaxy. Predictably, given that the Imperium is about untrammeled collectivist utilitarianism, whereas Chaos is about untrammeled individualistic competition, the two philosophies work out as being damn-near identical in application. And then I must restrain the urge to quote Orwell... but I digress.)

    Endgame scenarios: Imperial Victory (you clear off all the orks and chaos cults,) Exterminatus and Exodus (you lose the world but deny it to the enemy,) or Daemon World (total defeat with a side of torture-porn.) You could live or die in any of these, and might even wind up as a daemon's plaything yourself.


    Rough Notes On Mechanics
    Spoiler
    Show

    I'm suggesting a timescale of in-game months here for the campaign, with an X-Com/RTS-esque framework of choosing key locations to dispatch troops from a central base of operations, combined with a first-person perspective for NPC interactions and personal missions. The advantage of the RTS-like approach is that allows a variety of moral quandaries to emerge organically, rather than being artificially scripted.

    Essential skills and attributes:
    Code:
    Tech Dogma: Gene Culture  (rations, medicines, detecting mutations)
    Tech Dogma: Manufacture   (ammunition, equipment, building infrastructure)
    Tech Dogma: Neuroscience  (cyborg implants, brainwashing, servitors/psykers)
    
    Psyker Training           (astrogation, foresight, the warp, shielding)
    Relics and Artifacts      (holy weapons, titans, the machine god and emperor)
    Chaos Arcana              (sacrificial magic, soul pacts, the chaos gods)
    
    Battle Tactics            (logistics, formations, strategy, discipline)
    Close Combat              (chainswords, hammers, glaives, heavy armour)
    Marksmanship              (lasguns, bolt pistols, ion cannons, grenades)
    
    Command                   (intimidation, interrogation, threats and orders)
    Suasion                   (flattery, outright deception, pleas and haggling)
    Counsel                   (logical debate, formal instruction, hard truths)
    
    Faith vs. Corruption
    Constitution and Injuries
    Experience
    Some of these might be considered properties of your chapter or base, rather than inherent to you personally. One of the luxuries of a relatively long time-scale is that you can have non-regenerating health, and heal up between missions instead. This means there's a real risk associated with going on missions personally- if you get shot, you might be stuck in a stretcher with penalties to your admin skills for, like, an in-game week. But at the same time, nothing boosts morale and earns loyalty quite like leading from the fore.


    Possible Sequel Directions

    High Command: (follows Imperial Victory)
    Spoiler
    Show

    The Backstory: Your superiors are sufficiently impressed by your dispatch of the orks and chaos forces that they eventually promote you to military head honcho for the Imperium as a whole.

    Pressure Points: The impending failure of the Golden Throne. Spread of the Psyker gene and human evolution. The need for independant scientific research and secular-libertarian reforms to sustain a spacefaring civilisation post-Emperor, when every aspect of your government exists to shut down independant thought and crush dissent. The need to comandeer finite resources vs. not pissing off powerful, self-interested bureaucratic factions with enough political pull to fire your ass. Cumbersome logistics and severe fog of war. Implacable Tyranid and Necron incursions. This could all take millennia.

    Requiem for the Fallen (follows Exterminatus and Exodus)
    Spoiler
    Show

    The Backstory: Following a demotion, you've been re-stationed to an obscure border-world, tasked with re-locating any survivors from the initial game (including NPC acquaintances,) helping them get settled, and dealing with the associated culture-shock.

    Pressure Points: The conflicting interests and mindsets of Exodite Eldar, Tau and Human colonists in the region. The need to establish relationships with each in order to broker peace vs. resorting to large-scale military intervention from superiors on each side. The grievances of prominent colonists who blame you for the death of their old families. Establishing a basic economy and trade networks to sustain the fledgling settlement vs. the natural landscape (because Elves in Space, that's why.)

    Champion of Chaos (follows Daemon World)
    Spoiler
    Show

    The Backstory: After succumbing to daemonic corruption, you find yourself on the low-to-mid-rungs of the Warp's sadistic social pecking order, and need to work your way up. You might choose oblivion voluntarily, and/or be annihalated while taking down another Chaos threat, but that's the only 'redemption' you'll see.

    Pressure Points: The constant expectation to perform- Sink or Swim, at every stage. Bloodshed and raiding outside the warp (Khorne, Nurgle) vs. intrigue and politics (Tzeentch, Slaanesh,) influencing malcontent mortals through dreams and psyker visions. The pragmatic benefits of working alliances (Chaos Undivided) vs. the imperative of self-interested ambition and personal merit. Unbreakable vows for spice.


    These would specifically follow on from only one of the endgame scenarios, so you can only import a character if you survived the game through that scenario (though the character would start off experienced if you do.) High Command could have more RTS/X-Com elements, Requiem for the Fallen could have more RPG/Relationship/Crafting elements, and Champion of Chaos could have more FPS/Brawler/Action elements.

    The one common element in each of these scenarios, which you've probably spotted already: This setting exists to be broken. The same factors which make it interesting make it inherently unsustainable, and each of these sequels specialises in undermining it in different ways. In Command, you can only save the Imperium by dismantling it piecemeal first. In Requiem, you cheat Chaos and defuse the Xeno threat through peace, not war. And in Champion, you may find that Chaos is no more inherently savage than Order.


    Discuss. FOR THE EMPRAH
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-20 at 11:41 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Hunter Noventa's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    The first thing I can think of is that a Space Marine Commander is about the worst thing to put in as the main character. They aren't meant to be doing the kinds of things you talk about, they're conditioned to fight and kill and not much else.

    No it'd be a much better game if you were to play as an Inquisitor and their Retinue. They have the kind of authority and leeway necessary to be a PC. There's a reason the first book for tabletop RPG 40k centered on the Inquisition.

    Just looking at half the choices you set up as examples, a Space Marine's only feasible response would be Burn the Heretic whereas an Inquisitor has the flexibility to get the job done by any means necessary.

    But it's not a BAD idea by any stretch. Combat would be the most difficult thing to get right, like in any game of this nature.
    "And if you don't, the consequences will be dire!"
    "What? They'll have three extra hit dice and a rend attack?"

    Factotum Variants!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Comet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    The idea is really cool, yeah. A strategy game with a heavy element of choice and strong personalities would definitely be what 40k works best with, I think.

    Don't see what this all has to do with Bioware, though. Doesn't seem like their style of gameplay or story.
    Last edited by Comet; 2012-10-18 at 12:18 PM.
    "What can change the nature of a man?"
    __
    Guybrush Threepwood avatar by Ceika

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Yeah, I think if Bioware got their hands on 40k, they wouldn't be going for Ultrasmurfs, they'd be going for Dark Heresy. That's exactly the kind of thing they'd love.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    The Premise
    You (a Space Marine commander) arrive on this planet (an industrial Hive World.) There's an ork infestation, but it's mostly a cover for a daemonic takeover, working on a subtle level. As time progresses, the default level of corruption among the populace and NPCs will rise, eventually consuming everyone. The game requires uncovering and countering the daemonic threat in due time, by hunting down cabals and, if worst comes to worst, sealing the gate that allows them direct entry to the material world. Unfortunately, many of the decisions that give you a material advantage over the orkish horde and the daemons' physical manifestations also make you and yours more susceptible to spiritual corruption.
    Sounds like you want to play the Chaos Rising expansion for DoW2.

    There are some flaws with your scenarios though, particularly since you specified a SM commander. As Hunter Noventa mentioned, an Inquisitor and retinue would be much better for a RPG based on questionable morality decisions.

    Reading through your scenarios, there are a number of problems, aside from the incorrect terminology.
    A lot of them derive from jurisdiction issues - Space Marines have no authority over the Imperial Guard and while any sensible IG commander will listen to a SM commander, he's under no obligation to follow any orders given.

    Likewise there is no trafficking with daemons. Any Inquisitor with an ounce of sense (ie other than from the Ordo Malleus) wouldn't go near a SM chapter with a bound daemon - if the Chapter were the Black Templars, he'd have a bolter round in his skull before he could finish the sentence.
    Even daemon bound weapons and items are generally held just long enough to be destroyed safely. In the event that Marines do start using them, it's usually only a matter of time before an Inquisitor shows up and starts investigation.

    About the only real dilemma you proposed is the Exterminatus timing and again, there's very clear cut guidance about that (if there's any risk of Chaos taint escaping the planet, purge it now - the people left on the planet were doomed anyway).


    What could make your game work, is to set it during 30K, with you taking the role of Horus himself. Do you follow your father and liege, the Emperor, or are you seduced by Chaos, resulting in a massive war and eventual showdown.

    I don't think there will be many or any jurisdiction problems since the SM Legions are powerful, plus they're large and geographically isolated enough that an individual Primarch can mould them as he sees fit.

    Assuming you set the game early enough, you could have the tutorial as Horus taking over his world before the Emperor shows up, with the learning curve matching what Horus learns about the galaxy outside of his world.

    If we change your base's world focus to a galactic sector level instead, you can still keep the same mechanics, plus there's an actual reason and logic for research to be happening.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    An Inquisitor could work, but personally I don't think it would be the best option for this sort of game. I see it working more like this.

    You are a distance niece/nephew of the Planetary Governor. Your mother ran off and married below her station (without the approval of the family), only to die shortly after you were born.

    A while back, the only heir of the governor (your great grandfather) manifested as a psyker. The governor didn't want to hand him over to the Black Ships, and sought out a way for him to hide his talents. As a result, a Chaos Cult has had connections at the top level of the planetary government.

    The Inquisition finds out, they consider Exterminatus, but reject it. The corruption is not widespread, and the planet contains some sacred sites. They can't just expose the Governor, since that could cause a breakdown on the entire planet.
    As they are thinking about what to do, the Orks attack. Problem solved, the Inquisition gets all the tainted members in one room and blame the Orks.

    Now the planet needs a governor, and you are the only Heir the Inquisition is sure remains untainted, due to the fact that you were raised separate from the rest of the family, and were therefore never in on the family secret.

    This is where you choose your background, depending on who your mother married.

    Military: Your Mother married a PDF colonel, and you were raised within the military, and are fluent in the language of war. You had ascended through the ranks before the Inquisition plucked you out and put you in the palace. You have good relations with the military leadership.
    Ecclesiastical: You don't know your father's name, but you were raised within the Church of the Emperor. You are vigilant when it comes to tracking down chaos, and capable of inspiring the faithful.
    Mercantile: Your father was a member of a powerful merchant's guild, and you were raised within the halls of wealth and commerce. You are adept at managing your planet's economy, and have contacts within both the Guild, and the Adeptus Mechanicus.
    Criminal: Your father was an up-and-coming member of a powerful lowhive syndicate, and you were raised within the cutthroat world of criminal politics, making a profit off extortion and petty vice. When the Inquisition arrived, you were well on your way to becoming the king of the syndicate. Your "friends" in the syndicate help you track down Chaos cells and your lower-class background earns you the sympathy of the masses. However, the upper classes don't respect you and the inquisition barely trusts you.

    In any case, you are in charge of defeating the Orks, track down and destroy the Chaos cults, and stopping the various groups from tearing the planet apart in their struggle for power.

    There are three "Failure" conditions. First the Orks overwhelm your defenses and conquer everything.
    Second. Chaos cults spread out of control, the Inquisition declares exterminatus.
    Third:The inquisition dosn't trust you (note, certain decisions can cause the Inquisition to suspect you regardless of if you are actually dabbling in Chaos), they kill you, then declare Exterminatus.

    Factions within the planet won't directly cause you to lose, but if you piss them off too much, they will cause problems. Angry peasants may riot, shutting down your economy, forcing you to divert troops from the frontlines,and getting in the way of your hunt for heretics. Angry nobles will withhold resources, depriving you of funds and skilled ministers. The Admech can shut down both your economy and your war effort if they want to, the Eccelarchy will turn people against you if they feel you are impious, the Syndicates may provide shelter for Cultists.

    On the flipside: Happy Workers will work harder and sign up for the PDF in greater numbers. Happy nobles will give you money. A contended Admech will keep your machines running smoothly and may trust you enough to put some Skittari at your disposal. If the Eccselarchy like you, they will sing your praises from the pulpits and may divert Sororitas teams from the holy sites to the frontlines. The Syndicate can keep things orderly, they're great at helping you hunt down cultists (their ability to do so is independent of your Order rating), and can blackmail priests, nobles, and captains of industry to keep them in line.
    Last edited by BRC; 2012-10-18 at 02:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    And then I spent forever having ideas
    Combat
    Combat is Turn Based Strategy, and occurs at two levels: Mass and Precision.
    Mass combat largely consists of fighting off Orkish attacks, though it could also include containing riots or shutting down an especially large Chaos cult. Each unit in a Mass Combat scenario represents an entire squad.
    Precision Combat usually involves storming Chaos cults, but it could also mean hunting down Syndicate members, making strategic attacks on Orkish positions, fighting off Kommando incursions, or arresting dissidents. At the Precision scale, each unit represents an individual soldier.
    You may promote a Squad from “Mass” to “Precision”, at which point it will generate names and stats for each individual member, based on the stats of the squad.
    For example, let’s say you have a PDF infantry Squad. It has earned the following Traits
    Veterancy (Flat Bonus to all stats), Grenadier (Capable of throwing Grenades), and Close Combat Specialists (Bonuses in Melee).
    You decide to Promote this particular squad. First, all individual members of it retain the “Veteran” bonus, which functions in basically the same way. One of the Squadies shows up with the “Grenadier” Trait, giving them a bonus with explosives. Three of the squad carry Shotguns as backup weapons, and the Captain shows up with a Chainsword. They also all carry the “Fire Forged” Bonus, meaning they are more effective when deployed together.

    Note: with some Precision missions, you have the option to use Overwhelming Force. In this case, the Mission will say how many mass squads you would need to Overwhelm this particular problem.

    For example, your investigators track down a Chaos cult working out of a club in the upper Hive. This particular mission has an OF rating of 3. This means that you need to dedicate three Squads (Your individual units at the Mass Combat level) to use Overwhelming Force.
    Overwhelming Force is almost always a guaranteed victory. Any enemy that you could take on with a precision force simply isn’t prepared to have three squads of PDF kicking down their door. However, there are some major downsides.
    First: By using Overwhelming Force, you are pulling your squads from other duties. Usually, those duties are either standing ready to fight off the Orks, or keeping things orderly inside the Hive. I see the game operating in Phases, each representing a day or so. If you pull some PDF troopers from the frontlines to storm a chaos cult, it means you’ll be short three squads when the Orks attack.
    Second: Using Overwhelming Force is a messy proposition. Depending on the target, it can make people angry. For example, using Overwhelming Force against an upper hive chaos cult will make the nobles uneasy. Sending in a massive number of troops to stop a Kommando raid means telling everybody that there WAS a Kommando raid, which can make the workers restless.
    Third: Overwhelming Force is imprecise, many Precision missions may come with extra conditions, stuff like “Rescue Hostages”, “Avoid Collateral Damage”, “Prevent this person from escaping”, “secure this object”. When using Overwhelming Force, you have a very low chance of completing such objectives, although that can change depending on what units you use. A squad of Marshals, for example, is more likely to take people alive and less likely to cause collateral damage than a PDF unit.

    Speaking of Units, let’s talk about units.
    Remember, most Units have two functions they can perform: Defense and Peacekeeping. Defense means standing at the front lines fighting off the Orkish horde. When the Orks attack a district, your force is made up of whichever troops you have defending that district.
    Peacekeeping is more static, but no less important. Your “Order” Score influences everything from public content to your ability to track down Chaos Cults and stop Syndicate activity (Unless, that is, you let the Syndicate do it’s thing in exchange for Money and Favors. Also, the Syndicate can track down Chaos Cults regardless of your Order score). Units placed on Peacekeeping duties will raise your Order rating for that turn.
    On either duty, Units will eventually tire out and lose effectiveness unless placed on Reserve.
    Now, let’s go over some Unit types.
    PDF: This is your standard unit. Ten dudes with Lasguns. They’re cheap and easy to build and train. You simply send out a call for Volunteers, or just Conscript some people, although conscription results in low-morale squads and public discontent. They’re going to be the backbone of your Front Line units, and can provide some help on Peacekeeping.
    Marshals: The Police force of your Hive. They’re better than PDF in close-quarters combat, but worse at a distance, and since they’re more expensive, they’re really not suited for fighting the Orks. However, they provide an increased bonus to your Order score when placed on Peacekeeping duty.
    PDF and Marshals are the only units you can actively recruit. However, you can boost their stats by sending them in for additional training, at increased cost of course.
    However, they are not the only troops available.
    Sororitas: A Convent of Sororitas resides on the planet, however the Sisters are not sworn to obey the planetary governor, and consider it their sacred duty to protect the planet’s holy site (Ignoring the fact that, if it were to fall under attack, it would mean the Hive would be lost anyway). However, if the Cannoness believes you to be properly pious, then she may put some Sisters to your disposal. Sororitas function much like the PDF, except that all their stats are much higher, and if used for Overwhelming Force, they are even less likely to leave anybody alive.
    Skittarri: The Admech has a presence in the Hive. Normally, their cyborg soldiers are tasked with guarding the sacred machines, but if the Magos trusts that the Omnissiah’s bounty will remain safe, he can assign some Skittari to help you. They’re much like PDF troopers, but with significantly boosted stats.
    Citizen’s Militia: If the Commoners are happy with you, they may sign up as a citizens Militia. Poorly armed and barely disciplined, the Militia is actually weaker than a base squad of PDF soldiers. However, they’re free, and they can be trained into PDF regulars for a reduced cost.
    Syndicate Enforcers: If the Syndicate thinks you have their best interests at heart, they’ll put a team of Enforcers at your disposal. Enforcers can come in a variety of forms. For example, Triggermen come pre-loaded with the “Stealth” and “Marksmanship” traits, while Pit Fighters are powerful close combat specialists.
    Mercenaries: It’s also possible to hire Mercenary teams. They function much like elite PDF troopers, except it takes no time to train them, and they’re more expensive.
    Traits: Certain events will give units Traits. Some Traits can also be given to units via Training, which takes time and resources.
    Veteran: Surviving battles will make units Veteran. Veteran units have all their stats boosted. This trait can be acquired multiple times. Can be Trained.
    Enforcer: Putting a unit on Peackeeping Duty for long enough and they’ll earn this trait, which provides a Bonus while on Peacekeeping duty.
    Close Combat Specialist: Winning a melee fight, provides a bonus on Melee. Can be Trained.
    Marksman: Taking out enemies at extreme range, provides a bonus on range. Can be trained.
    Disciplined: Reduced chance to break in combat. Can be trained.
    Fanatic: Increased attack power, reduced defense, reduced chance to flee.
    Stealthy: Fighting in certain terrain types , grants the ability to Hide in certain terrains. Can be trained.
    Equipment: Some traits are Equipment Traits. They can only be gained through Training (though some units may start with them). If a unit with an Equipment Trait dies in battle, another unit must Recover the gear before the Orks loot the bodies.
    Grenadier: Gains the Throw Grenades ability. Equipment.
    Hellguns: Improved attack power. Equipment.
    Carapace Armor: Improved Defense. Equipment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    No it'd be a much better game if you were to play as an Inquisitor and their Retinue. They have the kind of authority and leeway necessary to be a PC. There's a reason the first book for tabletop RPG 40k centered on the Inquisition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    ...Likewise there is no trafficking with daemons. Any Inquisitor with an ounce of sense (ie other than from the Ordo Malleus) wouldn't go near a SM chapter with a bound daemon - if the Chapter were the Black Templars, he'd have a bolter round in his skull before he could finish the sentence.
    Even daemon bound weapons and items are generally held just long enough to be destroyed safely. In the event that Marines do start using them, it's usually only a matter of time before an Inquisitor shows up and starts investigation.

    About the only real dilemma you proposed is the Exterminatus timing and again, there's very clear cut guidance about that (if there's any risk of Chaos taint escaping the planet, purge it now - the people left on the planet were doomed anyway).
    While I'm sure the points you're both making are perfectly valid from a general descriptive standpoint- and I apologise for any misuse of terminology or general ignorance of the chain-of-command- I also think you may be missing the point slightly. A game like this is supposed to be about the consequences of personal choices. This doesn't inherently require that you be above the law or held unaccountable for your decisions. Rather, your accountability simply becomes another aspect of the repercussions.


    Just because a SM commander may not have formal authority over the IG doesn't (I'm guessing) prevent him from seizing effective command of a regiment if, say, a number of high-ranking officers were killed. Maybe that's against the rules, and he's likely to be disciplined severely for it later. But he *could* choose to do this, and accept the consequences, good and bad.

    Just because you're expressly told not to touch daemons with a six-foot pole doesn't mean you mightn't feel tempted by the opportunity to get vital intel from one once you get desperate enough. And you might take that chance, even if it *does* eventually bring the Inquisition breathing down your neck. Heck, maybe the very fear of being disciplined is what drives you to the side of chaos.

    Maybe you *can* cite chapter-and-verse about the very clear-cut guidance on the subject of an Exterminatus. My point is that the guidance may be wrong in this particular case due to extenuating circumstances, or at least that you might feel legitimately conflicted about it if you had people you knew on the ground. Maybe that *does* lead to chaos taint escaping offworld, but maybe it means you rescue valued NPC acquaintances.


    Now, if you're saying that Inquisitors would be much more statistically likely and able to get away with decisions of this kind, well and good. My problem is with this idea that other figures in the setting are neccesarily behaviourally-hardwired biological robots. (...Even when it's true.)
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-18 at 05:44 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    The problem is this. Space Marines are pretty explicitely engineered for the goal of not feeling moral ambiguity.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The problem is this. Space Marines are pretty explicitely engineered for the goal of not feeling moral ambiguity.
    Basically, yeah. Space Marines aren't exactly biological computers (except for the GK), but it's hard-coded into them in a fundamental, subconscious level of their being that Chaos Bad, Disobeying Orders Bad, Heresy Bad, Kill The Xenos. When they break these or even consider breaking them, it's a sign that something has gone very wrong and leads to stuff like punitive crusades and purges. 'Better an entire planet die than one demon be be dealt with' is not simply a perfectly rational SM response, but the only one he'll have unless already corrupted.

    As an Inquisitor, on the other hand, making such morally ambiguous choices is your bread and butter, and you probably do it on a daily basis anyways. Not only do you have the leeway to make such choices, it's like the Inquisition already has a built-in version of the Paragon/Renegade split that Bioware wants to have babies with, with the Puritan and Radical factions.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-18 at 05:51 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The problem is this. Space Marines are pretty explicitely engineered for the goal of not feeling moral ambiguity.
    Then how do you get Chaos Space Marines?

    Now, with that said, I'm not saying the alternative approach couldn't work. Maybe an inquisitor-centred game could be very interesting. Maybe a 30K game would be a fascinating exercise in revisiting the game's core assumptions. Those are cool ideas, and could certainly be expanded upon. I'll also try to look into Chaos Rising once I have a decent computer.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-18 at 05:53 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    The problem is that using an SM commander dosn't really add anything, while it DOES take a lot away.

    You see, a Space Marine would never DREAM of compromising with Chaos, no matter the cost. If they were given a choice to accept help from a Cultist in order to save a billion loyal citizens, or watch all those citizens get eaten by orks, they would kill the Cultist, then try to kill as many orks as possible before they got overwhelmed. That's not only the decision they would make, that is the ONLY decision they could ever consider making.

    Inquisitors certainly get up to some shifty stuff, and would be in a position to take command of an IG detachment, except they wouldn't. It would be like if the President and Secretary of Defense got killed ,so they had the director of the FBI command the troops. They might demand a few companies to help them crack an especially hard target if they can't get Inquisitorial Shock Troopers for some reason, and they're certainly willing to boss around the IG, but they wouldn't actually assume command.

    And it should be noted that there is no "Getting Away With" dabbling in Chaos. Officially, if you dabble in it, you die. Radical Inquisitors basically only get away with it by avoiding any contact with the rest of the Inquisition.


    That's why I went with a Planetary Governor. They would actually be in a position of command already, and they're just as human as everybody else. Plus, they have more at stake, enough to make them desperate. The idea of a planet getting conquered by the Orks is tragic, but it's not something an Inquisitor would especially care about, that's a pretty run of the mill problem for the IG.
    Last edited by BRC; 2012-10-18 at 05:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post

    And it should be noted that there is no "Getting Away With" dabbling in Chaos. Officially, if you dabble in it, you die. Radical Inquisitors basically only get away with it by avoiding any contact with the rest of the Inquisition.
    .
    Or keeping it on the down-low enough that no one notices, and/or being powerful enough/with sufficiently powerful friends that it's more trouble than it's worth for your enemies to take you out, or, as you said, just avoiding Puritans. 'Radical' exists along a sliding scale as much as "Puritan' does.....which just makes it even more like a pre-built scale to tie a Paragon/Renegade system onto.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    You see, a Space Marine would never DREAM of compromising with Chaos, no matter the cost. If they were given a choice to accept help from a Cultist in order to save a billion loyal citizens, or watch all those citizens get eaten by orks, they would kill the Cultist, then try to kill as many orks as possible before they got overwhelmed. That's not only the decision they would make, that is the ONLY decision they could ever consider making.
    Again, that raises the thorny question: how did the setting ever wind up with Chaos Space Marines, and continues to get more? I'm sure the Astartes have some fairly strong conditioning to ensure loyalty, but it's clearly not literally unbreakable under any and all possible stresses.
    Inquisitors certainly get up to some shifty stuff, and would be in a position to take command of an IG detachment, except they wouldn't. It would be like if the President and Secretary of Defense got killed ,so they had the director of the FBI command the troops. They might demand a few companies to help them crack an especially hard target if they can't get Inquisitorial Shock Troopers for some reason, and they're certainly willing to boss around the IG, but they wouldn't actually assume command.
    Well, a better analogy might be of a prominent general arranged a coup d'etat and usurping the civilian government in the face of what he considers an overwhelming threat from foreign enemies and the neccesity for martial law. Is he operating through the proper official channels? Of course not. But that may not be the foremost and primary consideration here.

    Or maybe you do just talk to the local Imperial Guard commander and try to gently persuade her of, e.g, the merits of leniency. Maybe that's what you have Suasion and Counsel skills for. But if you spend time practicing your diplomacy, then you're not spending time, e.g, whetting your power-axe. So that, too, is a choice, with consequences.
    And it should be noted that there is no "Getting Away With" dabbling in Chaos. Officially, if you dabble in it, you die. Radical Inquisitors basically only get away with it by avoiding any contact with the rest of the Inquisition.
    Well... okay then. Maybe our hypothetical techpriest in question kept this captive daemon in complete secrecy, because it was dumped on him by a (long-gone) Inquisitor. Maybe he was terrified of mentioning it to anyone else until the player earns his trust enough to confide in him. Maybe this SM is an unusually grizzled, savvy, and/or disillusioned specimen. Maybe the player is willing to risk death, even his very soul, for the sake of any asset he can lay his hands on in this conflict. Maybe he actually does die as a result, or get mind-wiped, or winds up as a gibbering mass of mutant flesh. Or maybe it wins the war. Or both.


    Now, again, these are all just hypotheticals. To re-iterate, maybe going with an Inquisitor or 30K setup really would be more practical in the long run. But in order to really address these interesting moral dilemmas inherent to the setting, you can't just prescriptively assume standard behaviour, or you just wind up telling yourself what you think you already know about the situation. If you're saying that all these choices are impossible because they have all these unthinkable consequences, then my philosophy is that the game should put it's money where it's mouth is- roll the die of fate, and show me the results.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-18 at 06:27 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Chaos Space Marines happened because they were actively corrupted by an outside source, and because they were conditioned to follow orders (which included doing things that left them open to corruption). Horus himself got personal attention by the Chaos Gods, and it played out more or less like a Chaos Pyramid Scheme from there.

    I know Space Marines are 'Iconic', but it's much less setting-breaking to put an Inquisitor in as the primary character for this sort of thing. Using a Space Marine for the sake of using a Space Marine wouldn't add anything except 'Look, it's a Space Marine', and they don't have the sort of cross-military temporary jurisdiction that a Inquisitor Lord would get, which enables a lot more flexibility in such actions. No one is saying that the choices are impossible, they're saying that the choices are the next best thing to impossible for a space marine commander - but for the members of The Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition, they're not just possible, but choices they're expected to make on a regular basis, and it's so firmly canon that individuals make choices on both sides of the path that they have names to describe the factions resultant. Here, the ability for the Player to make that choice is already canon, rather than shoehorning in reasons for it to be otherwise for the sake of being a SM.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-18 at 06:31 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    And I'm saying that using a Space Marine as the character goes against the setting without really adding anything new. You want to explore the idea of transgressing against your values in order to win the battle. That's fine, that's a great idea, however a Space Marine commander isn't the best vehicle to explore that. A SM commander isn't any more likely to struggle with those choices than anybody else in a position of power, in fact, as mentioned, they're LESS likely to struggle with such decisions.

    Think about your idea. Now replace the Space Marine commander with an IG commander, or an Inquisitor. It loses nothing except that the PC is now a normal human instead of a giant super soldier. If the game was about being a Badass, running around smashing orks, then being a SM would add something, but it's about Command. If SM commanders are better than IG ones, it's only because the SM in question has a few more centuries of experience, and since the Commander in question is the Player, that's not really going to matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    pffh's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    So what about the romance options? Since this is the bioware treatment I'm assuming hot Man on Ork loving is on the table. Or in the bed
    Last edited by pffh; 2012-10-18 at 07:14 PM.
    "Elephant trunks should be used for elephant things only. Nothing else."

    Thank you Geomancer for the Death avatar.

    My lets plays:
    Alien vs Predator: marine chapter - Completed
    Singularity - Canceled

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tavar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Well, it's more likely be Human/(Orgyn, Eldar, Human), with the possibility of demons if you go chaos.
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
    -James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
    Satomi by Elagune

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Earth... sort of.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Inquisitor makes a lot more sense from the perspective of things Bioware likes to do.

    The Inquisition, as a government body, makes a lot of sense as an organization that can give the player information, leads, and even outright missions if the plot demands.

    Inquisitors also can have a much wider variety of stuff in their retinue, so Bioware can write their archetypes... the lovable thief, the ex-military man, the psyker that's still coming into her powers, the sexy sex person, maybe also some kind of alien (Inquisitors can get away with that, right? I know Rogue Traders do, and I seem to recall there being some cross-reference for Ork/Kroot characters in Dark Heresy)...

    Theoretically a space marine could make friends with a lovable street urchin, but it'd be weird.
    Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
    MOVIE NIGHTS AND LETS PLAYS LIVESTREAMED

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Inquisitors can literally have whatever they think they can get away with in their retinue - no one except a more powerful inquisitor or the High Lords of Terra can call them to task. There's at least one canonical inquisitor (Draco?) who regularly ran around with Eldar.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Couple of things:

    * Like I said at the start, from a narrative standpoint, the setting exists to be broken. It's falling apart at the seams. And that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing, because the protagonist can be the tipping factor in the direction it falls.

    * Regarding SM corruption: there are still ravening daemons around trying to poison souls, and SM still get ordered to do unsavoury things by superiors. (Like thinning the surplus population of Hive Worlds. I'm sure Khorne would be delighted.) Is following orders rigidly supposed to make them less susceptible to Chaos? I'm unclear on this.

    * Inquisitors are, by their nature, heavily insulated from the consequences of their decisions. No courage in the absence of fear, and all that. It gives them more latitude, but potentially makes them less, not more, relatable. You're pointing at these guys as being able to make these choices easily, but that's not the point. The point is for these choices to be hard.

    * To a certain extent, being a Badass might actually be a valid component of gameplay like this (again, as mentioned in the OP, leading your troops from the fore, in person, is a very effective way to earn their loyalty.)

    * It's too damn late for this argument. I need sleep. Will try to revisit later.



    But okay, I can see the logic of the argument that IG commanders or Inquisitors might be better suited to admin/diplomacy or mass-battle/civilian-policing roles. One can certainly imagine a version of this game where you get to choose from one of several potential character backgrounds. I just don't want to see the idea of an SM option ruled out entirely on the basis of some kind of fatalistic determinism.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    * Regarding SM corruption: there are still ravening daemons around trying to poison souls, and SM still get ordered to do unsavoury things by superiors. (Like thinning the surplus population of Hive Worlds. I'm sure Khorne would be delighted.) Is following orders rigidly supposed to make them less susceptible to Chaos? I'm unclear on this.
    Yes. Until thier commander turns out to be Chaos-influenced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    * Inquisitors are, by their nature, heavily insulated from the consequences of their decisions. No courage in the absence of fear, and all that. It gives them more latitude, but potentially makes them less, not more, relatable. You're pointing at these guys as being able to make these choices easily, but that's not the point. The point is for these choices to be hard.
    And Space Marines, immune to fear, without any sort of relaxation or habits besides "Do more weapons drill" and have "Have you killed the alien everything not Loyalist, yet?" as the first checkbox in thier To Do list are... more human?

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tavar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    These decisions are not necessarily easy for an Inquisitor. Oh, sure, if you take any of the more extreme ones it's easy, but extremism tends to do that. If you aren't as extreme, then things become tricky. When people say that they can make these choices, it's not really that they're easy for them, it's that Inquisitors have the power and authority to make these choices. I mean, if a Doctor was forced to chose between who to operate on, well, they're the ones who can make that choice. Doesn't mean it's easy.

    Really, the Space Marines are more insulated from their Actions than Inquisitors. Inquisitors don't have an army, so are dealing with events up close and personal, unless they're going the planet buster route(in which case they'd still have to be present). Often times this might mean staying on after the destruction is done.

    Space Marines tend to go from hot-spot to hot-spot, not seeing the full consequences. Also, and this is important, they're largely forbidden from interfering in political matters.
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
    -James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
    Satomi by Elagune

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Also in terms of character development being a space marine means no gender choice, and due to the power of the average space marine character, very few things will actually challenge him.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
     
    bluntpencil's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ho Chi Minh City
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Yeah, Inquisitorial operatives would be the best way for a Bioware game. Hell, Mass Effect basically worked like this: SPECTREs were the Mass Effect equivalent.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Basically, yeah. Space Marines aren't exactly biological computers (except for the GK), but it's hard-coded into them in a fundamental, subconscious level of their being that Chaos Bad, Disobeying Orders Bad, Heresy Bad, Kill The Xenos.
    Not only that, but you've also got Chaplains yelling that same thing at them every single day, and if you have questions, you're expected to go to the Chaplain and ask him about it. And the Chaplain says the same thing he did before. Heresy Bad. Kill The Xenos. If you don't kill the Xenos, the Emperor will be sad. Do you want the Emperor to be sad? Disobeying me will make the Primarch cry.

    And then, you've got Librarians reading minds and doing 'spot checks' in training to make sure the indoctrination sticks.

    Anyway, any game where 'You' are presented as the PC should be one of the following;

    1. Inquisitor, or at the very least an Interrogator with a band of Acolytes. The Inquisitor should be non-denominational (to begin with) and doesn't really care how a mission gets done, so long as it's done. During the game you acquire Puritan and Radical Points. Puritan points allow you to use Holy items and give you psychic powers. Radical points allows you to use Infernal/Xenos items and Sorcery. As always, I will say that an 'Inquisitor' game should always end with the protagonist's death. There are no happy endings for Inquisitors and the only way out is feet first.

    2. Rogue Trader. Ideal for character-driven game since a Rogue Trader is not beholden to anyone. He wants to start a war? Fine. He wants to end a war? He can do that too. He wants to watch the Galaxy burn whilst he profiteers? He can do that too. However, the scope for that is so open-ended it boggles the brain. So I'd probably go with the first option of Inquisitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    There's at least one canonical inquisitor (Draco?) who regularly ran around with Eldar.
    It was Ravenor. And Czevak as well. But Czevak is also a 'Guest' (read; Prisoner) of the Eldar.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-19 at 02:37 AM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    That's another good argument. An Inquisitor can have Orks, Eldar, Jokaero and other weird stuff.

    I can see the line-up already, if this was a bioware game.
    Mysterious eldar harlequin (female). Big tough stupid, yet funny ork. Psyker with personality problems (that get healed by falling in love with the main character). By-the-book fellow imperial (male) who hates all the aliens you drag around. Probably a priest.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-10-19 at 04:44 AM.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Another couple of things I'm going to try to keep short:

    * I think it is important for the player to be given choices here. But I also think it is important for those choices to have some relevance to the ostensible central mission. This is a major problem that I have with, e.g, the Mass Effect series. Most of the 'side quests' are exactly that- irrelevant fetch-quest distractions, or only deal with a specific incidental crew-member's background trauma, or whatever.

    * This, I think, is a large part of why ME3's ending sucked. The ending was totally disconnected from your earlier choices in the game, because most of your earlier missions were not clearly related to choosing some specific method of beating the reapers (other than brute-force "war assets".) They had *always* been disconnected from eachother, it merely became particularly obvious come 'crunch time'. *

    * So when it comes to things like romance options, or picking up a random crew, I would be inclined to ask quite closely why the protagonist might feel motivated to pick up an ork wierdboy or a harlequin or a water caste diplomat. For reasons other than, e.g, Adventure Time. Grab your friends. We'll go to very distant planets.

    * This, again, is why I'm a little bit leery about an Inquisitor option. They don't have to justify anything they do. I don't really know that Superman is brave if he's never really in danger. And I don't really know that Shepherd has liberal beliefs when she faces no comeuppance for releasing the Rachni queen.


    EDIT: * To be fair, at least the quests in ME3 were about taking down the reapers. But in ME1 and ME2? Total disconnect.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-19 at 06:00 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    * This, again, is why I'm a little bit leery about an Inquisitor option. They don't have to justify anything they do.
    Space Marines have to justify even less. Remember that Space Marines are rigid, fantical zealots by design. They are basically brain-washed into being what they are. I think it's notably that even in 40K fiction, which I only know from occasional references, that the more memorable characters tend to be other Imperials.

    And being a Space Marine also puts you flat-out in a position where you have to be male, you certainly won't have any romances and your party would pretty much have to be composed of other Space Marines, and you would have to basically be playing a fairly narrow character (and a fanatic at that); because if you don't do that, you're not really playing a Space Marine, you're playing a dude in Space Marine armour. Space Marines just aren't good roleplaying material. They don't do difficult morale decisions, because, at the end of the day, they are quite prepared to burn planets to kill a few demons at the drop of a hat. I mean, even GW realised this, which is why Dark Heresy, as I understand it, is primarily set-up for playing basically Imperial Guards.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    These decisions are not necessarily easy for an Inquisitor. Oh, sure, if you take any of the more extreme ones it's easy, but extremism tends to do that. If you aren't as extreme, then things become tricky. When people say that they can make these choices, it's not really that they're easy for them, it's that Inquisitors have the power and authority to make these choices. I mean, if a Doctor was forced to chose between who to operate on, well, they're the ones who can make that choice. Doesn't mean it's easy.

    Really, the Space Marines are more insulated from their Actions than Inquisitors. Inquisitors don't have an army, so are dealing with events up close and personal, unless they're going the planet buster route(in which case they'd still have to be present). Often times this might mean staying on after the destruction is done.

    Space Marines tend to go from hot-spot to hot-spot, not seeing the full consequences. Also, and this is important, they're largely forbidden from interfering in political matters.
    Again, I feel this simply makes the choice of interference more interesting. I would imagine such a game as being, to a significant extent, about questioning the assumptions of the setting's social structure and patterns of authority. The inquisitors cannot really challenge these things precisely because they're allowed to ignore them. In order to break down a door, the door must be shut to you.

    Inquisitors don't have an army, but I thought the very attraction of using an Inquisitor is that they can, for example, take an Imperial Guard regiment and tell them to do whatever? And while they *can* get up close and personal, it's not often the most efficient use of their time, resources and authority.

    I question the doctor analogy, because doctors can be fired for their screwups. They are, in fact, held accountable for their decisions.


    Now, I'm not saying these critiques aren't partly valid. Maybe having an SM background would substantially impact the game mechanics- say, where you get a bonus to resist personal corruption, but certain game-choices aren't available until the planet's corruption advances pretty far and you get increasingly desperate. Whereas an Inquisitor is especially vulnerable to personal corruption, but gets broad latitude in early decision-making. Or maybe an IG commander has vast numbers at his disposal and a strong connection to the civilian populace, but little in the way of advanced skills and equipment. *shrugs*. Just a thought.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •