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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    . I mean, even GW realised this, which is why Dark Heresy, as I understand it, is primarily set-up for playing basically Imperial Guards.
    Technically they're not Imperial Guards, they're minions of the Inquisition. Less G.I. Joe and more if a member of the Secret Service recruited random people (A farmer, a wizard, a veteran, and a chef? I HAVE CHOSEN MY TEAM! SEND THEM TO SPACE!) to investigate threats for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Consequences
    Again, a SM Commander would receive, at worst, a chewing out by his chapter master. An Inquisitor is part of a community that could respond to his actions- His colleagues might praise him, or they might decide to add him to their hit list. In fact, it's entirely possible he'd get both reactions at once, considering the factionalism within the Inquisition.
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Space Marines have to justify even less. Remember that Space Marines are rigid, fantical zealots by design...

    They don't do difficult morale decisions, because, at the end of the day, they are quite prepared to burn planets to kill a few demons at the drop of a hat...
    I imagine this is quite true of the large majority of such characters. But if it were a universal rule, Chaos Space Marines could not exist. However strong their conditioning against disobedience, there are always possible circumstances which could impose a countervailing motive to disobey. Maybe that means he's not a True Space Marine anymore! Fine! Let him decide, and let him reap the whirlwind.

    Look, this is just an elaborate No True Scotsman argument. It's like saying No True Stark would ever get involved in King's Landing politics or bribing officials or confess to crimes he didn't commit when Ned Stark winds up doing all those things. The very fact that Ned Stark has strong inhibitions against these things is what makes the choices so damn gripping. That's how you know he, e.g, cares about his kids. And conversely, the fact he's willing to face imprisonment and death for the sake of his integrity is how you know he's that honourable. His freedoms are only meaningful in the presence of costs and downsides and barriers. You need these things for a character to be defined at all.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Again, a SM Commander would receive, at worst, a chewing out by his chapter master. An Inquisitor is part of a community that could respond to his actions- His colleagues might praise him, or they might decide to add him to their hit list. In fact, it's entirely possible he'd get both reactions at once, considering the factionalism within the Inquisition.
    Okay, I'm getting very conflicted reports here. Is the attraction of an Inquisitor that they get to do stuff without having their authority questioned, or that their decisions *will* be judged and heavy sanctions might result? Is the downside of a Space Marine that they have no authority to interfere outside narrow limits, or that the worst that might happen if they do interfere or screw up is a stern talking-to? I'm unclear on this point.

    EDIT: Look, maybe an Inquisitor or an IG commander could be an awesome protagonist. But I'm hearing two basic options here: No Choice vs. No Consequences. And that's bull****.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-19 at 07:02 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Space Marines jugde themselves, and that's a point of pride for them. When on a mission, both operate on the basis, that anything that get's the job done is a good thing, as long as it destroys Chaos, but SM have the rule that Chaos stuff is FORBIDDEN. Inquisitors are a bit more easygoing, depending on faction and personal philosophy.

    The thing is, Marines have their philosophy hardwired into them, mostly. And if not hardwired, then they are indoctrinated to a level that you won't even believe. Most choices don't even apply to them.

    For example, the Rachni queen dilemma in ME. It really made me think, because on the one hand, you could release a threat upon the galaxy that threatened it once already, on the other hand, you might gain an ally and right a wrong. The SM? Alien. Kill.
    SMs are also brought to fight, not to investigate or make diplomacy. So playing an SM is like playing Mass Effect, but only the combat sequences. In essence, it'd be like playing Space Marine, the game

    And another thing: Space Marines are ludicrously powerful, at least compared to most other people in the universe. And they do their stuff alone, or in the company of other Space Marines. It doesn't really lend itself to the rich world of companions that Bioware games are famous for. And even if he did have companions, he wouldn't talk to them, at least not about anything that isn't relevant to the mission. Space Marines have 15 minutes of free time a day, and they are encouraged to spend these minutes on prayer and personal reflection.

    For a Space Marine, there IS only war.

    An Inquisitor, on the other hand, habitually does what every Bioware hero does, that is, assemble a rag-tag crew and undertake incredibly dangerous missions, making difficult moral choices.

    He's also got the dubious power Shephard and the Warden enjoy. He's important, and people should help him, but especially more powerful people won't have to help him automatically.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    The downside of a Space Marine is that the scope of the character is narrow.

    • Space Marines are usually forbidden from commanding non-Space Marine forces.
    • Space Marines come ready-made with a rigid archetype for their personality.
    • Space Marines are single-purpose: they should handle military challenges and military challenges only.
    • Space Marines are mono-gendered.


    Space Marines can fall to Chaos the same as anyone else, but the number of narratives for such a fall are more limited. For a Space Marine, the reasons to turn are things like loyalty, revenge, a sense of betrayal. For a genetically normal human, all those reasons still apply - but so do a hundred more, like expediency, survival, love, cowardice, intellectual curiosity...

    An Inquisitor has all those choices open, and is more relatable than a Marine. They have the authority to pull together and command disparate parts of the Imperial machine, and they also have the full spectrum of moral choices open to them without contrivance. If they go too far off the deep end into radicalism, then other Inquisitors will start gunning for them. If they go too far off the deep end into brutal puritanism, then they are still human and backed up only by a little wax seal and whatever local forces they can command. Mutiny is meaningful: even if the Inquisition hears about it and sends forces to retaliate, by the time they arrive Inquisitor Bligh may well be dead and the evidence carefully arranged to make it look as if it was nobody's fault.

    So an Inquisitor has freedom of choice, the necessary authority to take part in all the activities you were thinking about in the first post, and plenty of consequences to their decisions.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Okay, I'm getting very conflicted reports here. Is the attraction of an Inquisitor that they get to do stuff without having their authority questioned, or that their decisions *will* be judged and heavy sanctions might result?
    /sigh. Both.

    Inquisitors do have an authority they have to answer to. Each other. They can do anything they want in regards to the general populace, right up until the point where they can't. Inquisitors have laws. That's why there are Puritans and Radicals. Radicals and Puritans do not get along. Furthermore, 'Radicals' very, very rarely openly identify themselves as such. Because there's a very fine line between Radical and Excommunicate Traitoris.

    This is why Inquisitors are a good fit for a game. There is a sliding scale of Puritan-Radical, furthermore, Inquisitors also have a leeway for this...Wheras Space Marines do not. An individual Marine does not turn to Chaos. Turning to Chaos starts at the top, with the Chapter Master, or, several of his Command. Then the entire Chapter falls. Unless you're playing the Chapter Master or Chief [Position], falling to Chaos doesn't work because you're immediately Servitor'd or simply executed once a Librarian shows up and starts asking questions. And playing the Chapter Master means your authority is absolute. There are no consequences of Falling, until later which becomes a sector-wide problem (i.e; Huron and the Badab War), which has a much larger scope than a single-player RPG can provide.

    An individual Marine does not turn to Chaos.
    Entire Chapters turn to Chaos.

    Otherwise, you can have a small group of Marines working against the already-fallen Chapter Master. And that game already exists in the form of DoW2; Chaos Rising and Retribution. So I see no reason to continue that train of thought.

    If you don't like the fact that in regards to civilians, an Inquisitor has absolute authority. Fine. Play an Interrogator and Acolytes (i.e; Dark Heresy) which I already suggested. And they have to answer to an Inquisitor. Problem solved. You're taking your missions and graded on your success by a guy with higher authority than you - which does lead to consequences - but, as proxies for the Inquisitor, you have absolute authority.

    Wah, wah, wah. Something about no consequences. Fine. Insert another Puritan Inquisitor who when you go 'Radical', starts blackballing you all over the Sector until you do right. This isn't hard when you have knowledge of the 'verse.

    Long story short; A WH40K game literally can not be as open-ended and free-willed as say, Mass Effect. Because, simply put, the Imperium does not - and will not - work that way. The fact is, the only way to have 'choice' in 40K, is to be someone in charge. And, in the Imperium, there are no consequences for the people in charge. That's why they're in charge and you're not.

    TL;DR; 40K is not Mass Effect. 40K is Knights of the Old Republic with less choice.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-19 at 07:52 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Okay, I'm getting very conflicted reports here. Is the attraction of an Inquisitor that they get to do stuff without having their authority questioned, or that their decisions *will* be judged and heavy sanctions might result? Is the downside of a Space Marine that they have no authority to interfere outside narrow limits, or that the worst that might happen if they do interfere or screw up is a stern talking-to? I'm unclear on this point.
    I think the issue is that you're unfamiliar with how Space Marines operate.

    As Tavar said, they get sent in to a hot spot, lobotimise and cripple the enemy leadership and capabilities, then they get sent onto the next crisis point while the IG do the cleanup work (which may still take years of fighting).

    They don't do investigations or look around for extra trouble - Space Marines are very mission focused. Even in the games where they have more choice (DoW2 its expansions), they're very specific in what they do, be it stopping an ork invasion, to hunting down a traitor (although mission creep is always a problem - see the Space Marine game, where they were initially tasked with stopping an Ork invasion, then get roped into helping an Inquisitor and the subsequent Chaos invasion).

    Most of the time, a Marine won't be about to see the consequences of his actions, rather than not having any consequences (they sometimes follow on via the Inquisition).
    As others have said, while they are somewhat insulated from consequences due to their separate chain of command, this can be a two edged sword as they can't run roughshod over other branches of the Imperium without drawing censure by the people who the Marines do answer to (the Marine Malevolent did this during one of the Wars for Armageddon and nearly got into a standup fight with the Salamanders).

    Edit: Wow, lots of replies snuck in there.

    Edit 2: Forgot to mention, depending on the severity of the offence, a marine being censured may be be forced to undergo penance, demoted (usually into the 10th Company, who are scouts and marines in training), sent on a (usually suicidal) crusade to redeem themselves, mind scrubbed and retrained or simply executed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    TL;DR; 40K is not Mass Effect. 40K is Knights of the Old Republic with less choice.
    How about 30K then, with the protagonist being Horus?
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-10-19 at 07:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    How about 30K then, with the protagonist being Horus?
    I can see that being a game. A very linear one, sure. But I can see it. However, I think a better choice would be Flight of the Eisenstein.

    Where you play Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze and Remembrancer Keeler. Your goal is to get to Terra to Dorn and Malcador with word of the Heresy before it's too late!

    Garro - the Leader.
    Qruze - the Heavy. He's also old.
    Keeler - The psyker (also human, not a Marine)
    and then you also pick up the Sister of Silence Kendel. Who can be your group's combat specialist and resistant to Daemons and pyskery.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-19 at 08:01 AM.
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    There's a nice quote in the first Eisenhorn books that sums this up nicely. Eisenhorn is chasing a known heretic through a cryosleep vault, and his enemy has begun to open all the coffins before it was time, and now the vault is filled with the bodies of people in agony, all about to die. A woman grabs Eisenhorn's foot and begs him to shoot her. He answers something along the line of:

    "I could have stopped here and I could have done the mercyfull thing. It's not that I would not have wanted, not that I didn't care. Her facy might haunt my dreams forever. But had I stopped here, I might have lost Eiclone (his prey) forever, and I could not afford this. Such are the choices (or rather the lack of choices) an Inquisitor makes."


    Later, the planetary authority chews him out for essentially destroying a large part of the planet's nobility, who were in cryosleep, by chasing the heretic to the planet. Eisenhorn basically tells them to shut up, and that he does what he wants. He IS still human enough to tell them he regrets it, but in the end, he does what he must, no choices, no consequences.



    Buuuuut, I still think an Inquisitor would be a good protagonist, since there ARE choices where an Inquisitor could go either way. For example, using deamonhosts, or warp-tainted knowledge.
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Later, the planetary authority chews him out for essentially destroying a large part of the planet's nobility, who were in cryosleep, by chasing the heretic to the planet. Eisenhorn basically tells them to shut up, and that he does what he wants. He IS still human enough to tell them he regrets it, but in the end, he does what he must, no choices, no consequences.
    Who watches the Watchman? ...Other Watchmen.

    Don't forget the other Inquisitors who show later saying that he can't go around doing crap like that. Inquisitors don't really have absolute authority. They have authority until they don't. An Inquisitor dies from a bullet to the head, same as everybody else. When an Inquisitor starts throwing his weight around too far, a Planetary Governor could just shoot them. As long as nobody talks...Who knows what goes on in this backwater rim-planet?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-19 at 08:11 AM.
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Of course. But given the situation, there's nothing Eisenhorn could or should have done.

    Also, the Inquisiton, as you said doesn't have strict laws. You've gone too far when others decide you've done so, which might vary from cabal to cabal, and depend upon the High Inquisitors views. Although single Inquisitors might take offence and decide to hunt you down anyway.
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Basically...Dark Heresy already exists and is screaming out for video game adaption. That's literally what needs to be made. Rogue Trader could work too. Deathwatch, not so much. As Dawn of War 2 exists.

    Essentially, a 40K game needs to be more Baldur's Gate and less Mass Effect.
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    I have to agree that a Space Marine RPG wouldn't be the best choice for Bioware. Most of a Marine's choice comes down to modus opperandi; Whether or not to take actions to limit civilian casualties. And while marine's are still human, there is a fair amount of indoctrination there; Fear is only vaguely felt and used mainly as an extra warning, and the meditations they perform literally trigger reactions that have been programmed into their brain. Marines are post-human, really. Sometimes they do get put into situations that are a bit more complex, but even then, they still think like a marine. As for authority... They can try executing people until someone starts listening to them, but in practice that tends to require a lot of pointless shooting, and Inquisitors, other Chapters, and your superiors tend to get very, very put out if Astartes cross the line.

    An inquisitorial accolyte, on the other hand, has a variable amount of authority (In theory, you have all the power an inquisitor invests in you. In practice, that power is limited by how much others think they can get away with, up to and including surreptitiously arranging your death).

    As far as ending goes, I see a couple of endings for a Dark Heresy video game;

    1) The "good" ending: The heretics are dead, you're still alive (but a lot of your allies are not), and the game ends with you entering the warp en route to a new disaster. Puritans barely manage to save anything, while Radicals can be branded as renegades, earn many enemies, etc. Cut to stinger that shows you may not really have accomplished anything in the long term.
    2) The "Okay" endings:
    --a) The situation becomes untenable, and you are forced to declare exterminatus, barely managing to escape. Fan Favorite characters are doomed in this situation.
    --b) You and your entire cell are on planet when exterminatus occurs. You die. The End.
    3) The "Bad" ending: Chaos wins. You are dead if you only barely failed, and... worse, if you failed hard.
    4) The Fall: You have become sufficiently corrupted that you are declared a heretic, but you don't care, because they're right.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Hm. I like 2b).

    Actually, make it a choice for the character.

    You have failed at the good options. There are two options left. Let chaos win and run, or call the navy in orbit.
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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Hm. I like 2b).

    Actually, make it a choice for the character.

    You have failed at the good options. There are two options left. Let chaos win and run, or call the navy in orbit.
    For an inquisitor, I don't think that's much of a choice, actually. In that situation, the "right" action is one both radicals and puritans can agree on, so you're not going to live long anyway if you run away, since you'll be universally reviled by your colleagues, and thus likely deprived of resources. Which, actually, now that I think about it, is another suitably grim dark ending.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-19 at 09:55 AM.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Not for an Inquisitor, no. But for a player attached to their character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    For an inquisitor, I don't think that's much of a choice, actually. In that situation, the "right" action is one both radicals and puritans can agree on, so you're not going to live long anyway if you run away, since you'll be universally reviled by your colleagues, and thus likely deprived of resources. Which, actually, now that I think about it, is another suitably grim dark ending.
    That's why I suggested a Planetary Governor as the Player Character, since they don't have a hardcoded morality. Though I guess my posts were a little TLDR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    An individual Marine does not turn to Chaos.
    Entire Chapters turn to Chaos.
    Actual WH40k says otherwise.

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    The Sons of Guilliman free Nova Terra from a Tyranid attack. Afterwards, Squad Constantinus hunts down remnants of the Hive Fleet, finding Genestealer cults whithin the noble families of the capital. The entire ruling
    class is executed. The outraged population rises up against their Space Marine liberators. His patience gone, Sergeant Constantinus blames the Imperium for making him a monstrous killer· and denounces the Emperor. He
    swears to lead the populace to a better future, and his conviction is infectious. The old order is thrown down and statues of Constantinus the Liberator arc raised in their place. Other servants of the Ruinous Powers soon arrive, drawn by the anarchy and bloodshed. The rebel sergeant's megalomania escalates until it plunges the whole sector into open war. The mass rebellion ends only when Constantinus is killed by the Officio Assassinorum.

    So yeah, a single SM sergeant can choose on his own "screw the Imperium, I'm taking my own orders now!" and side with the local world population.

    Constantius even has a pic on the wiki. Vive la revolution!
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2012-10-19 at 11:46 AM.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    That's why I suggested a Planetary Governor as the Player Character, since they don't have a hardcoded morality. Though I guess my posts were a little TLDR.
    Playing as a Governor could get really boring, though. Inquisitors often undertake missions personally when the stakes are high enough. A Governor won't be on the front lines, or undergoing missions, or doing anything but cowering in a bunker and issuing orders to his subordinates. It'd work for a tactical turn-based strategy game to 'play' an Imperial Governor, but it wouldn't fit for an RPG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Actual WH40k says otherwise.

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    The Sons of Guilliman free Nova Terra from a Tyranid attack. Afterwards, Squad Constantinus hunts down remnants of the Hive Fleet, finding Genestealer cults whithin the noble families of the capital. The entire ruling
    class is executed. The outraged population rises up against their Space Marine liberators. His patience gone, Sergeant Constantinus blames the Imperium for making him a monstrous killer· and denounces the Emperor. He
    swears to lead the populace to a better future, and his conviction is infectious. The old order is thrown down and statues of Constantinus the Liberator arc raised in their place. Other servants of the Ruinous Powers soon arrive, drawn by the anarchy and bloodshed. The rebel sergeant's megalomania escalates until it plunges the whole sector into open war. The mass rebellion ends only when Constantinus is killed by the Officio Assassinorum.

    So yeah, a single SM sergeant can choose on his own "screw the Imperium, I'm taking my own orders now!" and side with the local world population.

    Constantius even has a pic on the wiki. Vive la revolution!
    Unless I'm misreading... *checks Lexicanum* This is still the basic principal. Corruption in a space Marine chapter comes from the top down. Constantius was on his own, so he was still the chief authority among his squad, the only marines he's in contact with.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Adding some further support to the focused nature of Marines, from Captain Angelos of the Blood Ravens: "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded".

    I originally thought it was a comment about protecting yourself from Chaos taint, which would seek open minds, but considering it again in light of a Space Marine saying it, shows it in a different light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I can see that being a game. A very linear one, sure. But I can see it.
    How about if Bioware does their multiple endings with varying degrees of how you (Horus) choose to defy or follow the Emperor?

    I know the Heresy is the canon ending, but suppose we turned it into a 'what if' game?
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-10-19 at 12:31 PM.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    The question is... If Horus does not betray the emperor... What on earth happens then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Playing as a Governor could get really boring, though. Inquisitors often undertake missions personally when the stakes are high enough. A Governor won't be on the front lines, or undergoing missions, or doing anything but cowering in a bunker and issuing orders to his subordinates. It'd work for a tactical turn-based strategy game to 'play' an Imperial Governor, but it wouldn't fit for an RPG.
    Well, the OP had the game described as being strategy based with XCOM-style mechanics, so regardless the PC is going to be spending their time giving orders from a bunker.

    For an Inquisitor, I would remove the whole Orkish Invasion altogether.

    Here is how I would do it. The Bad Guy is a rogue inquisitor. The PC has been sent to Hive World X to find him and bring him in.

    As time goes on, the PC finds that the BBEG has not just gone rogue, he has fallen to Chaos. It started with the normal Radical Inquisitor stuff, recruiting a less-than-stable psyker, infiltrating a chaos cult, ect. Then he lets a Cult Leader live, starts asking him questions, uses him to track down the next stage in a conspiracy, and before long, he's a full-blown worshiper of the Ruinous Powers, although he may continue to claim he has the Imperium's best interests at heart, and insists he's merely "Using the powers of Chaos against itself".
    Before long, the PC learns that the Bad Guy has some super-evil plan, the type of thing that cannot be allowed to pass under any circumstances. Stopping this plan can provide the tension needed to allow a slide into corruption.

    The best part about this setup, is that it means the BBEG is leaving a trail of "Quasi-Heretical, but still useful" things in his wake, perfect breadcrumbs with which to tempt the PC towards the radical side of things, because those are the exact same breadcrumbs he collected on his way to chaos. You're walking in his footsteps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Unless I'm misreading... *checks Lexicanum* This is still the basic principal. Corruption in a space Marine chapter comes from the top down. Constantius was on his own, so he was still the chief authority among his squad, the only marines he's in contact with.
    It's not the same principle. A chapter master is at the top of the chain. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. A lowly sergeant still has plenty of superiors over him in the hierarchy. Even if they're not nearby, Constantius was in his captain's orders to purge the nid infestation, and most certainly to not start a chaos revolution. He still choose to disobey his superior's orders. A chapter master doesn't take orders (unless the emprah would rise from his throne or something).
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2012-10-19 at 02:50 PM.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    I suspect that I may have run into the trap of defending a position in a rather entrenched way, not because I consider the position of vital intrinsic importance, but simply because it was contradicted by other posters. (I actually have no particular fondness for space marines... I'd be happier playing Tau, of all things.)

    I agree that there is more room for an experience similar to the traditional Bioware formula within the scope of an inquisitor's purview. And that would be great, as long as the underlying situational premise supported it. So, for example, to take one of the sequel directions I suggested- where you suffer a demotion/exile and have to defuse inter-species tensions on a backwater colonial border world, and deal with aggrieved colonists, and so on- there would indeed be room for lots of interpersonal dialogue and casual NPC acquaintances (and perhaps romance options.) That's a very open scenario where I think something closer to the traditional Bioware formula could work well.

    However, in the specific starting scenario I outlined, of defending an imperial hive world under assault- and I apologise if I created the wrong impression through a direct Bioware comparison, as this really was primarily lifted from the SM video game's premise- I don't think that the lack of a personal life, or romantic commitments, or reluctance to deviate from the demands of a central crisis, is really a problem. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that it is the combination of (A) a pressing omnicidal crisis and (B) players' desires to meander off on tangentially related relationship/loyalty/romance quests with minimal relevance to addressing the central threat, that accounts for many of the narrative weaknesses of the Mass Effect series (particularly the start of ME2 and end of ME3.) I do believe in giving the player choices, but I also believe those choices should be relevant to the premise. And, e.g, romance options have little or no immediate relevance to dealing with chaos insurgency.

    So, while I agree that the SM-commander would be an awkward fit for the former scenario (which does primarily focus on freestyle building of rapport on a local community level,) I feel the limitations of the SM-commander concept are not unworkably hobbling (at least with a little imagination) when it comes to the latter scenario. Make of it what you will.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Another first-person shooter, or even a squad tactical combat game a la Republic Commando , would be fantastic and very appropriate for a Space Marine character. It's just the Roleplaying element intrinsic to Bioware games that makes it fall flat, because Space Marines are just plain bland when it comes to the sort of decisions typically innate to RPGs.

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    EDIT: I've modified the OP to incorporate some of the feedback on this subject. Hopefully, I can read over the thread in a more leisurely fashion later, as there are other suggestions I've probably missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Another first-person shooter, or even a squad tactical combat game a la Republic Commando , would be fantastic and very appropriate for a Space Marine character. It's just the Roleplaying element intrinsic to Bioware games that makes it fall flat, because Space Marines are just plain bland when it comes to the sort of decisions typically innate to RPGs.
    I agree that the decisions typically innate to RPGs would be an awkward fit in such a case, but I feel there are other moral quandaries, with a potentially equal impact on story content, which are natural and appropriate to an SM commander working independently. What I was specifically hoping to take away from the 'RPG' side of things is the idea of branching/parallel plot threads with multiple significant outcomes. (I did look at the DoW: Chaos Rising mission descriptions, and perhaps something between that and X-Com, with a reasonable degree of dialogue options, would be up my street.)
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-19 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Well, the OP had the game described as being strategy based with XCOM-style mechanics, so regardless the PC is going to be spending their time giving orders from a bunker.
    Well, not entirely. The idea would be that you'd have the option of going on missions in person (which boosts morale/loyalty but risks personal injury), or staying behind at the base (which allows you to lead troops more effectively on a large scale, or get training, or recuperate, or talk to NPCs at length.) Naturally, an SM commander, given their heavy combat training, would probably favour the prior option more frequently, whereas an inquisitor/IG commander might lean more toward the latter, given their advantages in admin skills/human resources.
    Here is how I would do it. The Bad Guy is a rogue inquisitor. The PC has been sent to Hive World X to find him and bring him in...
    ...The best part about this setup, is that it means the BBEG is leaving a trail of "Quasi-Heretical, but still useful" things in his wake, perfect breadcrumbs with which to tempt the PC towards the radical side of things, because those are the exact same breadcrumbs he collected on his way to chaos. You're walking in his footsteps.
    That's actually a very cool idea. In that vein, a captive daemon could be a very 'heretical-but-useful' item to pick up along the way?

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    Default Re: If WH40K got the Bioware Treatment...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Another first-person shooter, or even a squad tactical combat game a la Republic Commando , would be fantastic and very appropriate for a Space Marine character. It's just the Roleplaying element intrinsic to Bioware games that makes it fall flat, because Space Marines are just plain bland when it comes to the sort of decisions typically innate to RPGs.
    I wonder. One of the Biowareisms that I get tired of is the inevitable dualistic morality scale element.
    Would a Space Marine Shooter-RPG perhaps do better if the difficult choices (instead of being between giving money away to orphans and kicking treasure out of puppy-dogs) were about tough tactical choices and the kinds of dilemmas the Space Marines actually do face? (Especially say in the context of something like the Deathwatch).

    Conflicting secondary objectives, the choice whether to limit collatoral damage or not, rivalries (inside the team or with other Kill-teams), conflicting loyalties between home chapter and the Deathwatch, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Here is how I would do it. The Bad Guy is a rogue inquisitor. The PC has been sent to Hive World X to find him and bring him in.
    This is what I'd do. Or a cultist or Sorcerer. Or something.

    Use Dark Heresy rules set.

    You start as an Interrogator (Human) and you and your Inquisitor travel down to a planet because your =][= has heard rumours of cult activity. Another =][= was sent down a few years ago, but nobody's heard from him since then. Almost immediately after you land and play some tutorial missions, the planet is wracked by Warp Storms. No-one can get off the planet, no-one can help the planet, and communications to the outer-System and simply right out. Boom, an in-canon way to limit the scope of the game, which a 40K game is going to need to do.

    The place you're in comes under Daemonic attack, you, your =][= and a friend you've picked up all manage to escape the city whilst the rest of it and all it's populace burns. As you get outside the city, your small party comes under an ambush from the ex-=][=/Sorcerer and your Inquisitor is murdered and his Rosette is taken as a trophy. You, still an Interrogator, still feel the need to put down the Chaos Cult, but, without a Rosette, you have no authority to do anything.

    Companions;
    The Best Friend Forever; With you from the start of the game. Can be one of two classes; A Guardsman or a Pysker. Depending on the PCs class. Like Dragon Age 2...Or Imoen - but less annoying. Your BFF always has the same amount of Corruption that you do.
    Guardsman; A medium-range fighter. He's retired, but you find him in a bar and he wants to put down some Chaos too. This planet's gone to Hell and it's his chance to finally be a hero.
    Psyker; The 'magic user'. She feels the Chaos taint and it's making her crazy. +2 Corruption. Character arc involves her turning her into a Sorcerer and gaining Corruption. Or making her blind (and thus even more useless in combat), but increasing her psychic powers and decreasing her Corruption.
    Ogryn; The Heavy (hit points). After putting down his Fallen slave-lord in a side-quest, the Ogryn stands around with nothing to do because Ogryns are that stupid. You can coax him into joining you. He will back you on every single decision you ever make and it's one of his mechanics that he can't lose loyalty points. You can make him a Plague Ogryn (Corruption), or a Bone'ead later on. The Bone'ead means he's less-likely to go beserk when he kills an enemy so you can still direct him in combat and use his abilities and he only goes berserk when you want him to.
    Arbitrator; The Heavy (armour class). He runs forwards and Power Mauls things in the face. Easily fan favourite.
    Harlequin (Assassin class); You come across some Eldar Corsairs and a Webway Portal. After killing the Dark Eldar a Harlequin steps out of the Webway and says that it's integral to the pattern that this planet be saved and you're the one to do it. +4 Corruption for having her in the party.
    Adept; Practically useless in combat. But he opens up several dialogue trees and side-quests that you otherwise can't have unless you have the crap character in your party.
    Cleric; All corruption gains are halved. And you lose two Corruption points just by having him in the party. He does massive damage and hits more often against Daemons and Cultists. But he's only average against xenos and looters. However, he closes several dialogue trees by having him in the party. However, for power-gamers he'll be a favourite since he makes the end-game super easy.
    Ratling Scum; Rogue. Thief. Whatever. He deals long-range damage.
    Tech Priest; He moves slow. But he's good at everything. You can give him a Daemon Engine to make him move faster. Or you can give him regular upgrades that make him move at normal speed, but his Int shoots through the roof and his damage increases. Another fan favourite because he hates all the fleshbags and will have dialogue to match.


    You somehow manage to put down the ex-Inquisitor-now-Sorcerer. If you've managed to not have too many Corruption points, you reclaim your fallen master's Rosette, and you're a full-fledged Inquisitor running off for more adventures.
    If you have some Corruption, and the BFF is in your party. Your BFF has called Exterminatus without your knowledge. Your BFF always was willing to make the hard decisions. They should have been the Inquisitor's favourite. Not you. They were here first. You stole their career, but it doesn't matter now...Because everyone dies.
    If you upgraded the Ogryn to Bone'ead (regardless of Corruption points), and he's in your party. He remembers his 'real' objective which was to defend the Sorcerer and he kills you. This is the classic 40K example of when something that seems like the good idea that doesn't even give you Corruption, turns out to bite you in the arse.

    If you have a moderate amount of Corruption, the Arbitrator arrests you at the end at the command of another Inquisitor. You escape for more adventures in the sequel. This is the canon ending. The Arbitrator does his job, even though he's your friend, it's what he's got to do. He's sorry. But that's the way it's got to be.

    If you have Fallen, the Arbitrator or the Harlequin executes you on the spot at the end. The Cleric lobotomises you and turns you into a servitor.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-10-19 at 07:12 PM.
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