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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    I want to translate this character from 3.5 to 4th edition. I know a perfect conversion is impossible, but I would still want to try to get it working as similar as possible. (specially a good suggestion on an appropriate paragon path and the right feats and skill selection).

    This character started as a rogue1-Sorcerer3 with a cat familiar, specialized on ranged combat (mainly with a bow) and exploration, (but still enjoying the ocasional flanking with daggers) by fifth level she took a level of fighter because shooting into melee was so common and couldn't wait another level, at sixth level picked a level of ranger in order to pick Favored enemy (Native Outsider), and at 7th picked a level of paladin because evil enemies started becoming too common, and both of those also brought contacts with a knight order and a ranger organization. (they also provided help to keep the party tiefling wizard under check) Then restarted focussing on levels of sorcerer and rogue and finally another level of ranger.

    Just two quick disclaimers:

    • I'm not looking forward to an optimized character, this character was meant to be suboptimal even by 3.5 standards (as witnessed by it's 80% xp penalty and low HP). However I'm looking for the right synergies to keep the overal feel.
    • I'm not set on class, but titles are important, and thus please refrain from suggesting not multicassing. A big deal has been done on this elf not being a wizard but a sorcerer and both a ranger and a paladin.

    Spoiler
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    Race: Elf

    LV 14
    Classes:
    Rogue 3
    Fighter 1
    Ranger 2
    Paladin 1
    Sorcerer 7

    Initial Scores

    Str 8 (8)
    Dex 16 (14)
    Con 6 (8)
    Int 14 (14)
    Wis 13 (13)
    Cha 15 (15)

    Final Scores
    Str 8
    Dex 18
    Con 6
    Int 14
    Wis 13
    Cha 17

    Feats
    1st.- Point Blank Shot
    3rd.- Weapon finesse
    Fighter 1.- Precise Shot
    6th.- Combat expertise
    Ranger. Track
    9th.- Improved feint
    Ranger 2.- Rapid shot
    12th.- Multishot

    Spells known

    cantrip.- Ghost Sound, Light, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Flare, Message, Open/Close
    1st.- Instant locksmith, Tenser's floating disk, Comprenhend Languages, Detect secret doors, Silent image
    2nd.- Knock, Invisibility, Spider Climb
    3rd.- Fly, Shrink Item

    Skills

    Bluff: +16 (+13/r +3/cha)
    Disable Device: +10 (+8/r +2/int)
    Hide: +17 (+13.5/r +4/dex)
    Move Silently: +17 (+10/r +3/fam +4/dex)
    Open Lock: +15 (+11.5/r +4/dex)
    Perform: +13 (+10.5/r +3/cha)
    Search: +12 (+8/r +2/int +2/racial)
    Sleight of Hand: +10 (+6/r +4/dex)
    Tumble:+10 (+6/r +4/dex)


    thank you, and sorry for being picky, but this particular character is very quirky.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    One of the core tenets of 4e is that fluff doesn't matter and can/should be freely rewritten in any way you see fit. Rogues have no mechanical or flavor tie to a thieves guild, nor to paladins belong to a sect of knights or rangers to an order, unless you say they do. And then they do, even if your character is a sorcerer who belongs to all three.

    I see and respect that titles matter to you, but without unlimited multiclassing, you can't get all of that under one roof, unless you start as a bard or take the traveler's harlequin paragon path, both of which allow you to multiclass into more than one class. But even then, the multiclass feats in 4e are very different than taking a level of a different class in prior editions, and quite often don't mechanically do very much to make you feel like a member of that class. So you end up asserting much of the associated flavor even if you jump through mehanical hoops, which always leads me to feel like it's easier to just reflavor whatever you want however you want without trying to bring conflicting mechanics together to create something functional.

    A sorcerer can be high-dex high-cha, which easily lends itself to being a good party face and thievery expert, and which will satisfy the requirements for rogue, ranger, and paladin multiclass feats quite easily. Even if you do take them, though, there's a lot more restrictions on how/when/with what weapons you can apply sneak attack and ranger bonus damage than in 3.5, so you may end up feeling disappointed there.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tegu8788's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    One suggestion to help get all those classes in would being a Bard. It's a caster class that can do well with bows and melee weapons, though doing all three can be tricky. You get decent armor right off the bat, and use Cha for your main stat. I'd say this is the best bet for a straight forward build. Not optimized, but you don't want that. Bards can MC as much as they want, so with a spread of stats you can get an MC feat into each class.

    As Sol said, fluff and crunch are very separate now. Backgrounds and Themes might help get some of the varied flavor.

    For a more complicated build, I'd recommend a Sorcerer|Rogue/Paladin being a Half-Elf to grap Twin Strike. Sorcerer doesn't loose too much being a hybrid, and the Cha/Dex focus works perfectly with the Rogue. You can blast and stab just as easily, though bow attacks would be harder. Crossbow could be done though. The Paladin MC works around Cha, which should already be high, gives that divine tough flare. Being a Half-Elf gives you the Fey feel, and let's you get an attack from any class you aren't a part of, and most would agree that the core of being a Ranger in 4E is Twin Strike.

    So, at first level, Sorcerer|Rogue gives you a nice melee and nice blast power, with a dagger in the off-hand and maybe rapier or other light blade in the main hand, use the feat to get the Paladin MC, and Racial to include Ranger. This doesn't include Fighter but I'm not sure what you wanted from it. I wager a Theme or Background could help that out.


    One big way to help the build is to know what you want to do in combat. 4E builds revolve around doing one of four things. Being a meat shield, killing things, supporting allies, or hampering large number of enemies. It's very hard to be excellent at more than one thing, and it's hard to change fighting styles in combat in 4E. So for us to get you a good character you'll enjoy playing, we need to know what you enjoy playing. Some classes dabble in other roles and certain hybrids can be good in two roles, but it's agreed that pure classes are the strongest. MC Feats are almost always good, as well.

    The first build would not be very effective in combat given the stat spread, and 4E means you need to hit to do stuff. It also takes quite a while to get made. The second build is more complicated, but would be very good at killing things at close range. You lose out on heavy armor but your AC will be fine, and you have almost the entire character in the first game.


    And to re-enforce another of Sol's points, MCing now is very different. 3.5 MC is closer to 4E Hybrids, but you are limited to combining only 2 classes. Also, be aware that combining classes are not the key to making a more powerful character. Fortunately, you aren't looking for that. 4E MCing is just dabbling a little bit.


    Edit: Alternately, Str/Cha Ranger|Sorcerer/Paladin would be able to use a bow as an implement, or an off-hand dagger in melee. The Range side suffers more than the Rogue would, but you wanted those three classes the most. If it's AC you want from the Fighter and Paladin, make a Sorcadin that MCs Ranger. I'd be happy to help, if you decide you make a hybrid. Still glad to help you make a pure class, but I'm not as useful there.

    There is a feat, Arcane Familiar, that let's anyone with any arcane class get a familiar. There is even one for a Cat. +2 to Acrobatic checks, helps reduce falling damage, and it has +5 to it's own Stealth. But familiars don't do anything combat wise. For that, you'd want either Shaman MC or Fey Beast Tamer Theme and get a Fey Panther.

    Also, be aware, that most of the spells you listed are now Rituals, which anyone can do for the cost of a single Feat, or you get it free being a straight Bard, so, at level 4 you can get Ritual Casting, a Cat familiar, and the title of a third class. Quicker if you're a human, but you mentioned elf several times, so I figure that's out of the question.
    Last edited by Tegu8788; 2012-10-18 at 02:27 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not by any means new to 4e, but I'm far from knowing everything about it.

    This character is meant to be converted at 14th level, that's why I was also asking about the right paragon path. I was also considering using bard as a basis, both because the ritual caster, unlimited multiclassing and musical flavor, but I'm still not sure on what multiclass feats to take and what Powers or if it is appropriate to power swap.

    Also this character, being a sorcerer, knew no directly combat spells (no fireball, no ray of frost, or the like), all spells were for mobility and to aid thievery. In combat this character was a very mobile archer while giving the ocasional melee attack with a dager or rapier (usually mixing sneak attack and smite against a favored enemy), but also using the invisibility + sneak attack combo.

    Oh, and despite having those armor proficiencies, this character wore no armor, relying onstead on bracers, rings and the old dex gloves to get the AC. Anything heavier would have messed up badly with the character's spells, rapid shot and skills.

    The Traveler's Harlequin Paragon Path seems like a good one for the character's purposes though.
    Last edited by Kaiisaxo; 2012-10-18 at 02:26 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tegu8788's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    At 14 you'd have plenty of chances to get the feats you want. It sounds like you might want a Bow Ranger over anything else, and I think there is an arcane MC feat that gives Ritual Casting. It's a challenge to get both melee and ranged into a weapon character. A Bowlord might actually be able to do it, but the damage won't be very good.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Well these are the converted scores:

    Str 11
    Dex 20
    Con 9
    Int 15
    Wis 16
    Cha 19

    Is there any Paragon path meant for Archers? One of them might be worth going Prescient Bard with skald trainning and plugging in the other feats as going. (Arcane Prodigy feels lacking though)

    Other might be going sor/ranger hybrid with a few rogue swaps then take traveler's Harlequin and take Bardic Ritualist, colector of stories and Soldier of Virtue(perhaps even divine channeler). Which option feels the most stable?

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Euphonic Bow (Arcane Power) is the Bard Archer path. It's rated as mediocre in the handbook; Songbows make its level 11 class feature redundant although I think the encounter power is nice. Karmic Shaper (Arcane Power) is not specifically an archery path, but its encounter power is a Ranged Weapon attack and it is specific to Virtue of Prescience. It's a solid path with an excellent enabling feature at 16th and a brutal daily attack, although I think the encounter power sucks (go multiclassing feat or Reserve Maneuver!). Cunning Prevaricator (Arcane Power again) is worth mentioning for flavor reasons, since it is all about making you and your allies invisible.
    Last edited by Hawk7915; 2012-10-19 at 01:16 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    OK. Reverse engineering:

    Bluff: +16 (+13/r +3/cha)
    Disable Device: +10 (+8/r +2/int)
    Hide: +17 (+13.5/r +4/dex)
    Move Silently: +17 (+10/r +3/fam +4/dex)
    Open Lock: +15 (+11.5/r +4/dex)
    Perform: +13 (+10.5/r +3/cha)
    Search: +12 (+8/r +2/int +2/racial)
    Sleight of Hand: +10 (+6/r +4/dex)
    Tumble:+10 (+6/r +4/dex)

    In 4e this is training in Bluff, Thievery, Stealth, Stealth again, Thievery again, N/A, Perception, Thievery again, and Acrobatics or even just a couple of good shift powers.

    Which means Bluff, Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Acrobatics. You'll be more generally competent anyway - Perception also covers Spot and Listen for one. Any reasonably sane class can do this. (For a barbarian it would be a challenge).

    cantrip.- Ghost Sound, Light, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Flare, Message, Open/Close
    1st.- Instant locksmith, Tenser's floating disk, Comprenhend Languages, Detect secret doors, Silent image
    2nd.- Knock, Invisibility, Spider Climb
    3rd.- Fly, Shrink Item

    Your cantrips are, alas, cantrips. The nearest I can do is the Wild Talent feat which is technically Psionic, but who cares?

    Your first level spells are almost all rituals with the exception of Detect Secret Doors (Perception skill covers this) and Silent Image. You just need one of the dozen or so ways of getting Ritual Caster.

    Your higher level spells are either Rituals or Utility Powers. In 4e almost anyone can manage non-combat casting with the Ritual Caster feat and then use weapons in combat - and you have no non-combat rituals. You do not need an arcane class in 4e.

    Feats:
    1st.- Point Blank Shot
    3rd.- Weapon finesse
    Fighter 1.- Precise Shot
    6th.- Combat expertise
    Ranger. Track
    9th.- Improved feint
    Ranger 2.- Rapid shot
    12th.- Multishot

    Track just means you need training in survival. Weapon Finesse is thrown in with the power system - you just need to be a dex (or even cha) based class. Rapid shot and multishot aren't really how 4e combat works - no such thing as iterative attacks. And you don't need precise shot for 4e.

    Unarmoured Agility is technically a waste of a feat, but keeps your AC competative.

    This leaves us with just the classes to handle. 4e has precisely one class that can multiclass out to everything - and that's the Bard - and Bards can be mostly martial and get the ritual caster feat. But we can do one better than that with the Traveller's Harlequin Paragon Path from Dragon 382, allowing you to be a thief or twin striking ranger (your choice depending how important rolling two attacks is) as your primary class. And both thieves and rangers have serious combat mobility.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    I think there are some good suggestions, but I just want to echo that you'll probably have to squint a bit to get what you want in a 3.5 to 4e character conversion. The system was never meant to port characters over directly from previous editions, and while the number of options has increased significantly (I remember PCs trying to convert "Barbarian" and "Bard" classes when only the PHB1 was available!), the rigid structure of 4e that most classes are based on makes converting multiclass characters difficult.

    I second Tegu8788's advice; the first step (even beyond what classes you pick) you should take is to figure out "what does my character want to do" (i.e. the role or roles; Defender, Striker, Leader, Controller). From there, a lot of details can fall into place.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Urpriest's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Another point, to help you make your decision: in 4e, a Sorceror with no combat spells doesn't just exist mechanically, it doesn't exist fluffwise either. Sorceror means you've got a wellspring of elemental burny-power. If your character didn't work that way, then their 4e incarnation simply isn't a sorceror.

    As others have mentioned though, this is irrelevant, because all you've got there are rituals now anyway. Bard feels closest to what you had going.
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    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Well is either a bard of cunning with jinx shot, Guiding strike and the following feats and the Sharpshooter paragon path:

    Wild talent
    Fey Cantrip
    Skald Trainning
    Warrior of the Wild
    Sneak of Shadows
    Twilight adept
    Arcane Prodigy
    Divine channeler (Paladin)
    Darkness Consumes

    Or a Sorcerer|Ranger with ensorcelled blade, twin strike & the following feats and the Traveler's Harlequin PP:
    Hybrid Talent (ranger fighting style)
    Wild talent
    Fey Cantrip
    Sneak of Shadows
    Novice Power
    Adept Power
    special: Bardic Ritualist
    Divine channeler (Paladin)
    Twilight Adept
    Darkness Consumes

    Which one feels more viable? and what are good ranger and rogue powers (or bards powers that feel appropriate?)

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    I'd like to put another good word in for a bard, more specifically a half-elf bard. Take Twin Strike as your dilettante to use with your bow, and multiclass into Chaladin with the Divine Channeler feat (Divine Power) - choose Divine Mettle for your Channel Divinity.

    Then take the PP that's all about multiclassing (Student of the Seven? I don't have my books with me, but it's in the PHB II) and the feat that turns your dilettante into an at-will at level 11. Good Sorcerer Multiclass Feat is the one from Arcane Power that gives you damage resistance. For the rogue feel, take the rogue multiclass that trains Thievery, 'cause you'll rock it with your dex.

    Another good idea is to take the Master At Arms (Forgotten Kingdoms?) and Melee Training feats so you can pull out your melee weapon of choice when the situation arises without dropping your bow, and all for the low, low cost of a minor action.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Thanks to everybody. I have decided how to do it. Your suggestions really helped.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tegu8788's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Mind sharing what you choose to do?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Well numbers aren't already figured in, but this is the result. Not an exact conversion but I feel it conveys the basic feel of the character: an skirmishing archer that sometimes will use a rapier or a dagger and who has magical powers that -while possibly useful in combat- aren't themselves combat based. And who is a multiclassed ranger/paladin/rogue/sorcerer Elf

    Spoiler
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    Race: Elf
    Class: Ranger|Sorcerer (MC Rogue, Paladin, Bard)
    PP: Traveler's Harlequin

    Initial scores
    Str 10
    Dex 17 (2 racial)
    Con 8
    Int 14
    Wis 15 (2 racial)
    Cha 15

    Final Scores
    Str 11 +0
    Dex 21 +5
    Con 9 -1
    Int 15 +2
    Wis 16 +3
    Cha 19 +4

    Feats
    1st-Hybrid Talent (ranger fighting style: Hunter Style)
    Bonus: Quick Draw
    2nd-Wild talent
    4th-Fey Cantrip
    6th-Arcane Familiar
    8th-Sneak of Shadows
    10th-Novice Power
    11th-Adept Power
    PP- Bardic Ritualist
    12th - Divine channeler (Paladin)
    14th - Twilight Adept

    Trained Skills
    Nature (extra ranger)
    Bluff
    Acrobatics - familiar is a Cat so it's big
    Perception
    Stealth (MC) - familiar is a Cat so it's big
    Thievery (MC)
    Arcana (MC)

    Powers

    At-will
    Twin Strike
    Ensorcelled Dagger

    Encounter
    3 Disruptive strike
    7 Killer's Ambush (switched from Sorcerer Encounter)
    13 Pinning strike
    Travelerís Mummery

    Daily
    3 Skirmishing stance
    5 Bloodbath (switched from Sorcerer Daily)
    9 Attacks on the run

    Utility
    2 Deep shroud
    6 Death threat
    6 Wind Rider
    12 Shape of the Traveler

    Channel Divinity
    Divine Mettle

    Cantrip
    Ghost sound (covers Message too)

    Wild Talents
    Telekinetic Grasp (Mage Hand)
    Psionic Image
    Psionic Spark



    Bonus points for being a suboptimal and complicated build which also reflects the original. I could sure have gone a more optimal and less complicated way, but zero refluffing was extremely important to keep the essence of the character, and I wouldn't have needed help in the first place if I was going to do it that way. (That and Race was set in stone from the beginning, but yes a Half-elf would have been easier to build around), thanks everyone.

    The following is a mini rant, feel free to ignore it
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    However a major complain here is that rogues are extremely limited on what weapons they can use. I mean, why go out of the way to exclude bows from ranged rogue powers? it was a big hussle, some rogue ranged powers would have been ideal if not for that pesky exclusion.

    Actually I would play more rogues if not for that exclusion, I feel rogues being stuck with crossbows was a pointless restriction, why not allow them to use bows if they get proficiency with them?. I mean if a rogue gets rapier proficiency he or she can use one with his/her powers and inflict sneak attacks with them, why can't ranged rogues do the same with bows?

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Tegu8788's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Remember, with hybrids, if you have 2 of any AEDU powers, one has to come from each class. After that its all open, but you always have to have at least one at-will, one encounter, one daily, and one utility from each class before you can swap them out, and you still have to have one of each after the swap. And Wild Talents are usually only for Dark Sun, so double check that you get them.

    But that certainly looks cool, and does what you wanted. Kudos!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Dimers's Avatar

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiisaxo View Post
    However a major complain here is that rogues are extremely limited on what weapons they can use. I mean, why go out of the way to exclude bows from ranged rogue powers? it was a big hussle, some rogue ranged powers would have been ideal if not for that pesky exclusion. Actually I would play more rogues if not for that exclusion, I feel rogues being stuck with crossbows was a pointless restriction, why not allow them to use bows if they get proficiency with them?. I mean if a rogue gets rapier proficiency he or she can use one with his/her powers and inflict sneak attacks with them, why can't ranged rogues do the same with bows?
    There are quite a few feats rogues can take to use other weapon types with Sneak Attack and with their class powers. Some are race-based -- elves can learn to use bows for SA and for any rogue powers that use crossbows (Treetop Sniper feat from Martial Power 2). Some are open to any race. Some reduce SA damage by one die and some don't (Treetop Sniper doesn't).

    The point of limiting weapons for Sneak Attack and roguery in general is to explain how even small weapons, if used with great skill and precision, can kill quickly. The precision is harder to achieve with some weapons. I'm not sure I'd class bows as somehow less precise than crossbows -- I have no idea, having never used a crossbow and only having tried two bows ever -- and I certainly question the idea that a sling is a precise instrument. But, y'know, nothing is perfect.

    I'm pleased with how 5e seems to be handling the question, allowing certain weapons to be used with Dex instead of Str regardless of class and allowing certain abilities to be attached to such weapons.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Please Help me Convert this character to 4e

    Which is the name of the feat that allows elves to apply SA and rogue powers to bows? Treetop sniper? cool.

    (this is the kind of help I was looking for, thanks man)

    yeah I also just noticed the power disorder, but there is also lightning cuts and some other subtle sorcerer weapon powers that could come in handy. thank you.

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