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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    The alignments (and VoP) are the main reasons, but playing angel's advocate here for a bit: the T-ster actually has Int 3, which is more than animal levels and technically enough to take PC classes.

    Of course, an LG Tarrasque won't rampage, but might still have its own agenda, so it's not impossible to fit this into even a more heroic campaign; an evil campaign should be a perfect fit!
    My original explaination was that He is Lawful, and He is good, but he is nothing we would ever call either of those. I think actually we could fit rampaging in to his actions too: He isnt really rampaging, he is doing it systematically, to patterns that no mortal could understand

    and of course, Vow of Poverty after getting a Tattoo of Aptitude covers nearly all of his problems, like not being uber enough.


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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    I think causing heedless death and destruction does not fit into any version of "good", much less D&D's objective version.

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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    He isnt really rampaging, he is doing it systematically,
    Systematic = Good? Several genocides would like a word with you.

    EDIT: Almost every large-scale human rights abuse in history would also like a word with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    to patterns that no mortal could understand
    Half the Elder Evils, the Illithids, and maybe some Far Realm denizens would like a word with you
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-10-18 at 11:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    My original explaination was that He is Lawful, and He is good, but he is nothing we would ever call either of those. I think actually we could fit rampaging in to his actions too: He isnt really rampaging, he is doing it systematically, to patterns that no mortal could understand
    That's an entirely adequate explanation for the Lawful Component.

    Unfortunately, it's almost completely unsuited to Exalted Good. Something has to give: either the traditional "near-mindless monster of ultimate destruction" depiction is no longer desired, or he can't be Exalted Good (or even Good, very likely). A glimmering of this essential dichotomy is why I was rather reluctant to change his alignment in the previous thread (desiring a drop-in replacement for the usual Tarrasque, rather than a "re-imagined" version).
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Systematic = Good? Several genocides would like a word with you.

    EDIT: Almost every large-scale human rights abuse in history would also like a word with you.



    Half the Elder Evils, the Illithids, and maybe some Far Realm denizens would like a word with you
    no, He has reasons, and they fall within what DnD defines as good (but no sane person would define as good)

    I said mortals.

    ok, i got all the awesome stuff down that i could think of (Lightning mace borkedness, Vow of Poverty, Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx claws) (which we dont need Essentia for Pounce from))). that was 7 feats.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-10-18 at 11:59 PM.


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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    no, He has reasons, and they fall within what DnD defines as good (but no sane person would define as good)
    What are these reasons, exactly?


    Regardless, to continue qualifying for [Exalted] feats, he'll need an Atonement spell... approximately every five seconds.

    BoED Exalted Feats
    A character must have the DM’s permission to take an
    exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often
    this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for
    example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who
    willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits
    from all his exalted feats
    . She regains these benefits if she
    atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).
    BoED, Ends and Means
    In the D&D universe, the fundamental
    answer is no, an evil act is an evil act
    no matter what good result it may
    achieve
    . A paladin who knowingly
    commits an evil act in pursuit of any
    end no matter how good still jeopardizes
    her paladinhood. Any exalted
    character risks losing exalted feats or
    other benefits of celestial favor if he commits
    any act of evil for any reason. Whether
    or not good ends can justify evil means, they certainly
    cannot make evil means any less evil.
    EDIT: Here's my list of Evil Acts. If nothing else, Big T will almost certainly hit "Bringing Despair" (guy even has a Frightful Presence DC).
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-10-19 at 12:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    What are these reasons, exactly?


    Regardless, to continue qualifying for [Exalted] feats, he'll need an Atonement spell... approximately every five seconds.
    His task is to Reoriginate the Material planes.

    that primarily involves Accelerating the total collapse of said planes.

    asto feats: I misscounted, we have between 9-18 feats remaining, depending on where we decide Vow of Poverty sits.


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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    His task is to Reoriginate the Material planes.

    that primarily involves Accelerating the total collapse of said planes.
    So he's a one-man apocalypse cult. Those are practically the definition of Evil.


    If we can safely label the destruction of the Material Planes as a "nefarious purpose" (it's not exactly a stretch), every killing he does is is Murder according to the BoVD, and thus an evil act.

    As Belkar once said: "Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool"
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-10-19 at 12:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    So he's a one-man apocalypse cult. Those are practically the definition of Evil.


    If we can safely label the destruction of the Material Planes as a "nefarious purpose" (it's not exactly a stretch), every killing he does is is Murder according to the BoVD, and thus an evil act.

    As Belkar once said: "Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool, bub"
    Im more generalize the term, Re-Origination is from the Ulduar raid of WoW, where you have to stop the Titan's messanger from sending the "Come back here and fix this place". Re-Origination itself would kill all life on the planet, excluding the 3 remaining old gods. On the other hand, Azeroth is itself in a massive nexus of mystic energies.

    The Tarrasque is to Destroy the World so it can be made a better place
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-10-19 at 12:30 AM.


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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Im more generalize the term, Re-Origination is from the Ulduar raid of WoW, where you have to stop the Titan's messanger from sending the "Come back here and fix this place". Re-Origination itself would kill all life on the planet, excluding the 3 remaining old gods. On the other hand, Azeroth is itself in a massive nexus of mystic energies.

    The Tarrasque is to Destroy the World so it can be made a better place
    That's ... awesome? It's also neither a) Exalted Good* nor b) the original idea of the tarrasque, which has more to do with a recurring plague or natural disaster, targeted primarily at civilization.

    *Because, you will note, killing all Good creatures indiscriminately is pretty undeniably Evil.

    So I think this should take a different name and identity, since it's no longer really the same creature concept any more.
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Intimidate to Demoralize is not Mind Affecting, even though it is a Fear Effect. Which means I can still lock it down (although not kill it) fairly easily.

    Mailman could take it down. Orb of Fire + bunch of metamagics + Searing Spell to bypass fire immunity = burned down Ultimate Tarrasque.

    Other than that... looks at least fairly intimidating for your typical Level 20 party. Mind you, the CR 62 means it should easily curbstomp said level 20 party. Carapace doesn't affect Orb of Fire either, it only affects Ray, Line, Cone, and Magic Missile.

    Maybe a Dashing Duo? One Takahashi no Onisan who charges bravely, one might even say suicidally, then makes a roar of his own, cowering the beast and negating it as a threat. The Mailman behind him blows it up and uses the Wish spell to get rid of it entirely.

    Sure, it's kind of like an Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit... until you realize that the Lockdown is the only thing keeping them both from getting curbstomped.
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    If you want to give him Vow of Poverty, find some way to emulate good alignment? Or take one of the many, many homebrew ones?

    Apart from all that, I like where this is going. This sounds like the sort of creature that would get imprisoned in Carceri with the titans or Elysium with Mother Hydra and the other original monsters.
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    I really don't like the fluff of giving it Vow of Poverty. That implies that a lack of wealth is a deliberate choice, that you choose to go without worldly possessions that others might have your share. Not that you're a monster and have no need of puny mortal goods. It just doesn't fit.
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    That's ... awesome? It's also neither a) Exalted Good* nor b) the original idea of the tarrasque, which has more to do with a recurring plague or natural disaster, targeted primarily at civilization.

    *Because, you will note, killing all Good creatures indiscriminately is pretty undeniably Evil.

    So I think this should take a different name and identity, since it's no longer really the same creature concept any more.
    [Off topic] The Titans of Warcraft lore when they encountered Azeroth for the first time, discovered the Old gods, beings of immense power and evil, who had been warring against eachother and the Planar Elemental lords.

    This encounter taught them that there is more then just Azeroth in the universe, and they fought a loosing war against the titans. The titans win, and shape Azeroth into a prison warded by Iron Dwarves, clockwork Inventor Gnomes, Steel Goliaths, and 5 dragon species. The Old gods curse the Dwarves, Gnomes, Goliaths, and a small number of titans so that they will become mortal and flesh.

    Trolls, elves by extension, deep ones, and the insect races are also creations of the old gods, given free will. combined, all the native sentinent races of Azeroth were created by gods of evil in order to weaken said prison. They are no longer nieve about the universe, and they want out. Re-origination would reinforce the prison, and guard countless lives, but the Tear Drinker decides that leaving Azeroth in the hands of mortals is the decision he should make, because even though he cant risk the old gods getting out, and butchering all of creation (which each alone is able to do), he is taught through force of arms, that it is not time for the Final Solution.[/off topic]

    Function and flavor can be worked together, you just need to know how.

    Also, Vow of Poverty is because he is an immensely powerful beast, part of the rules are no-homebrew
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-10-19 at 09:15 AM.


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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    The Tarrasque is to Destroy the World so it can be made a better place
    It changes nothing. He's committing countless unforgivable genocides, slaughtering so many innocent people, ending so many lives needlessly, making so many widows and orphans... It's Evil.


    "Just following orders" is not a justification, it's an excuse. And a bad one at that.

    "My religion says it's OK" is not a justification, either. That one even has precedence with the apocalypse-cults I mentioned earlier. That never makes it right, and especially not Good by D&D standards.

    "I think it'll make the world a better place"... Again, take half of the real-world atrocities ever committed, and you'll find everyone and his grandma uses this excuse.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-10-19 at 10:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    It changes nothing. He's committing countless unforgivable genocides, slaughtering so many innocent people, ending so many lives needlessly, making so many widows and orphans... It's Evil.


    "Just following orders" is not a justification, it's an excuse. And a bad one at that.

    "My religion says it's OK" is not a justification, either. That one even has precedence with the apocalypse-cults I mentioned earlier. That never makes it right, and especially not Good by D&D standards.

    "I think it'll make the world a better place"... Again, take half of the real-world atrocities ever committed, and you'll find everyone and his grandma uses this excuse.
    Except now you are applying real world morality to a thought excersize of making the most dangerous tarrasque possible.

    and not only that, but the settings which do have the Tarrasque, Really would be rebuilt as better worlds after the plane is destroyed, because that is what the gods do when they are not just throwing lightning at people for percieved and contrived slights.


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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    I actually like the ultimate Big T being a force of good. Perhaps we should make a vile counterpart and see who wins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    I actually like the ultimate Big T being a force of good. Perhaps we should make a vile counterpart and see who wins.
    i was considering that, but are the willing deformitys not vastly inferior to Vow of Poverty?

    if there is a Vow of Greed, then ya, ill make a mirror who got Half Fiend instead of Half Celestial. going to rape his fly speed though


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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    i was considering that, but are the willing deformitys not vastly inferior to Vow of Poverty?

    if there is a Vow of Greed, then ya, ill make a mirror who got Half Fiend instead of Half Celestial. going to rape his fly speed though
    Well... I think the point is for them to be different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Well... I think the point is for them to be different.
    that isnt so much a problem, its that Vow is providing coverage against some of his problems, such as no trueseeing and the inability to fight incorporal.

    DR is of course completely irrelevant against him, he will still obliterate most people's HP pools without it


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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    that isnt so much a problem, its that Vow is providing coverage against some of his problems, such as no trueseeing and the inability to fight incorporal.

    DR is of course completely irrelevant against him, he will still obliterate most people's HP pools without it
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadowmind View Post
    You can get the [Force] Property from Crystal Helm and True Seeing from Keeneye lenses soulmelds. For the Lenses the Open Soul Chakra[epic] is needed.
    Well, considering how many HD he has, epic feats are not a major problem for him.
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    I like this idea, I have a Tarrasque who does the same thing. He is in fact the god of destruction and has destroyed countless incarnations of the material plane, and Hell, and Heaven, and the other planes. With only his own home plane surviving, as it is built from the pieces of the destroyed worlds and populated by most of those killed by him. The few who don't populate his plane are the oldest gods of the new world.

    Think an Epic setting for Epic characters.

    He is in no way good, and actually enjoys the fear he causes. Also, while his home plane survives the destruction he causes, he does not. After the birth of every new world, the power of the destroyer eventually gathers in a new vessel. The power and intent behind it is recognized by the destroyer, no memories from the older worlds are retained.

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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Intimidate to Demoralize is not Mind Affecting, even though it is a Fear Effect. Which means I can still lock it down (although not kill it) fairly easily.

    Mailman could take it down. Orb of Fire + bunch of metamagics + Searing Spell to bypass fire immunity = burned down Ultimate Tarrasque.

    Other than that... looks at least fairly intimidating for your typical Level 20 party. Mind you, the CR 62 means it should easily curbstomp said level 20 party. Carapace doesn't affect Orb of Fire either, it only affects Ray, Line, Cone, and Magic Missile.

    Maybe a Dashing Duo? One Takahashi no Onisan who charges bravely, one might even say suicidally, then makes a roar of his own, cowering the beast and negating it as a threat. The Mailman behind him blows it up and uses the Wish spell to get rid of it entirely.

    Sure, it's kind of like an Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit... until you realize that the Lockdown is the only thing keeping them both from getting curbstomped.
    And of course you beat me to the fear effects....

    We could use a Cleric with the earth domain and crank his rebuking through the roof, since the Big T has the Earth Subtype. Are the skills intentionally left blank? Cause they could certainly be important. Taking a page from the indispensible Haversack, this Item would be useful, since nausiated is a wonderful debuff.
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    Ipecac
    Price: 50 GP
    Weight: --
    (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 209)
    If you ever get swallowed by a creature, empty this into its stomach. The creature is forced to regurgitate you, and is nauseated for 1d4 rounds, no save.
    It can also be used to induce vomiting after ingesting a poison, giving a +5 untyped bonus to the secondary effect. Each vial contains 10 doses.
    Craft (Alchemy) DC: 25


    Otherwise falling object rules are very nice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmir View Post
    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    toapat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    Are the skills intentionally left blank?
    the skills are open to people building them out.

    without looking directly at the templates, i think he has a +18 to move silently


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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    So I have to ask...is this a Tarrasque...or Cthulhu

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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Sounds like a job for 'Cleric 20/Crusader 1' man.

    Imbued Healing: Luck. All rolls of 1 are treated as 2.
    Aura of Chaos: Whenever you receive a maximum amount on a melee damage dice roll again and add the the result of the roll.

    Since it's generically treated as a 2 it can be counted as rolled a 2.

    Roll again until you get a ... ? Infinite damage. With a 1d2 weapon.

    Cleric gets in close after duplicated a limited wish with miracle:

    Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.

    You don't miss. Celerity to go first. All the damage comes in 1 attack (the damage is rerolled and added). His regeneration starts working on that infinite damage right away and will get done with it in Infinity/60 rounds. Well it would except miracle.
    Last edited by gooddragon1; 2012-10-20 at 02:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    Sounds like a job for 'Cleric 20/Crusader 1' man.

    Imbued Healing: Luck. All rolls of 1 are treated as 2.
    Aura of Chaos: Whenever you receive a maximum amount on a melee damage dice roll again and add the the result of the roll.

    Since it's generically treated as a 2 it can be counted as rolled a 2.

    Roll again until you get a ... ? Infinite damage. With a 1d2 weapon.

    Cleric gets in close after duplicated a limited wish with miracle:

    Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.

    You don't miss. Celerity to go first. All the damage comes in 1 attack (the damage is rerolled and added). His regeneration starts working on that infinite damage right away and will get done with it in Infinity/60 rounds. Well it would except miracle.
    Does that still work around the DR? I thought it'll block the individual damage. You'll need Epic stuff and Adamantine, but otherwise your plan works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmir View Post
    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
    Blood~

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    By the way, the Epic Level Handbook's Pseudonatural template, as a 3.0 template, was updated in Complete Arcane.

    Yes, if you want it to be rules-legal, you have to use the newer version.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    By the way, the Epic Level Handbook's Pseudonatural template, as a 3.0 template, was updated in Complete Arcane.

    Yes, if you want it to be rules-legal, you have to use the newer version.
    Its an update in name only, and has the same problems as the Celestial/Fiendish vs Half Celestial/Fiendish templates, in that the pure creature is weaker then the halfbreed.

    also, the Original pseudonatural is Instant Epic, just add Hitdice, as opposed to something to emulate Cthulhu.

    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    His regeneration starts working on that infinite damage right away and will get done with it in Infinity/60 rounds. Well it would except miracle.
    nope, doesnt work. 1d2 infinite crusader can only drop an enemy to their minimum HP. for the Tarrasque, that is -30. That is 1 round of dead.

    oh, and Wish and Miracle have Spell resistance
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-10-20 at 05:10 PM.


    My Homebrew: found here.
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    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

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