Lets finish the Ultimate Tarrasque

[Starbuck_II]

How does he get a Breath weapon that work more than 1/day?
1/2 Dragon is 1/day by itself.

[toapat]

How does he get a Breath weapon that work more than 1/day?
1/2 Dragon is 1/day by itself.

I fixed that, but then went to a different window without posting the change

fixed now

[Heliomance]

By the way, the Epic Level Handbook's Pseudonatural template, as a 3.0 template, was updated in Complete Arcane.

Yes, if you want it to be rules-legal, you have to use the newer version.

Actually, no, I'm pretty sure they are explicitly different templates. I think Pseudonatural got updated in the official ELH update document, too, and if memory serves, the Alienist PrC clarifies that its benefits only apply to creatures with the CA Pseudonatural template, not the ELH one.

[rweird]

nope, doesnt work. 1d2 infinite crusader can only drop an enemy to their minimum HP. for the Tarrasque, that is -30. That is 1 round of dead.

oh, and Wish and Miracle have Spell resistance

Do you have a source for the can't reduce the Tarrasque below -30? From what I can tell about non-lethal damage from the SRD, it makes no mention that you can't reduce someone to -∞ health from non-lethal damage. I agree with regular damage, though not non-lethal damage.

Also, from what I can tell, Wish and Miracle don't allow SR unless they duplicate a spell that does seeing as it says "SR: See Below" and makes no mention of anything allowing SR, so I presume it only is if it duplicates a spell that allows SR.

Even if it only is one round of dead, the D2 crusader could take Multispell and DMM Quicken, so he uses DMM Quickened Miracle for limited wish to hit, charges, and uses DMM Quickened Miracle to keep it dead.

[toapat]

Actually, no, I'm pretty sure they are explicitly different templates. I think Pseudonatural got updated in the official ELH update document, too, and if memory serves, the Alienist PrC clarifies that its benefits only apply to creatures with the CA Pseudonatural template, not the ELH one.

expecially considering the ELH template is in the SRD

Do you have a source for the can't reduce the Tarrasque below -30? From what I can tell about non-lethal damage from the SRD, it makes no mention that you can't reduce someone to -∞ health from non-lethal damage. I agree with regular damage, though not non-lethal damage.

Also, from what I can tell, Wish and Miracle don't allow SR unless they duplicate a spell that does seeing as it says "SR: See Below" and makes no mention of anything allowing SR, so I presume it only is if it duplicates a spell that allows SR.

Even if it only is one round of dead, the D2 crusader could take Multispell and DMM Quicken, so he uses DMM Quickened Miracle for limited wish to hit, charges, and uses DMM Quickened Miracle to keep it dead.

oh, non-lethal: That caps out at twice HP (at which point it becomes lethal), Lethal damage is standard as -10 or if specific overrides. because his regeneration specifically states that his minimum hp is -30, that is what the game considers his hard limit. the Non-functional Rules thread has how that works.

Miracle and Wish though have Spell Resistance no matter what. They do not have "See Text", they have "Yes"

[TuggyNE]

oh, non-lethal: That caps out at twice HP (at which point it becomes lethal), Lethal damage is standard as -10 or if specific overrides. because his regeneration specifically states that his minimum hp is -30, that is what the game considers his hard limit. the Non-functional Rules thread has how that works.

There is no such non-lethal conversion. The closest thing is severe heat conditions, which (once you fall unconscious) start dealing lethal damage instead of nonlethal. In fact, the Dysfunctional Rules Collection specifically dealt with this misconception — not once, but twice.

[toapat]

There is no such non-lethal conversion. The closest thing is severe heat conditions, which (once you fall unconscious) start dealing lethal damage instead of nonlethal. In fact, the Dysfunctional Rules Collection specifically dealt with this misconception — not once, but twice.

Specific beats Nonexistant though, so that actually applies to all non-lethal damage.

otherwise they would specify that you take Non-lethal (Heatstroke) damage.

[TuggyNE]

Specific beats Nonexistant though, so that actually applies to all non-lethal damage.

No. The rules on non-lethal/lethal heat damage apply only and specifically to non-lethal damage from heat. There is no reason I know of to suppose they apply to anything else, and good reasons to suppose they don't.

Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate.

There are three basic reasons it's illogical to apply this to all non-lethal damage. First, it's in a section that's talking specifically about heat exhaustion and heatstroke; second, it refers to a rate of (non-)lethal damage over time, rather than individual hits, as one expects in combat; third, it happens at unconsciousness, not after taking full HP +10 in non-lethal, nor double HP in non-lethal, or any other such houserule.

The last is why I would consider it such a bad idea to misapply this; converting non-lethal to lethal so soon just makes no sense.

(For the sake of completeness, I could reasonably support a houserule that turns non-lethal into lethal once enough builds up, but sticking it so soon is a lousy idea, and in any case houserules should be recognized as such, not considered RAW.)

[Heliomance]

Also, if any such rule did exist, it would make beating the Tarrasque a lot easier. Regeneration does nothing to heal lethal damage, and once you're full up on lethal you're dead, whether or not you have regeneration or fast healing.

[TuggyNE]

Also, if any such rule did exist, it would make beating the Tarrasque a lot easier. Regeneration does nothing to heal lethal damage, and once you're full up on lethal you're dead, whether or not you have regeneration or fast healing.

That also applies (if a bit less obnoxiously) to trolls and quite a number of other creatures. (No, you don't need fire to fight trolls, just knock them out quickly and keep punching them!)

[Arcanist]

How does he get a Breath weapon that work more than 1/day?
1/2 Dragon is 1/day by itself.

This can be remedied by taking the Dragon Breath feat (RoD), however imo it's not worth it...

[rweird]

oh, non-lethal: That caps out at twice HP (at which point it becomes lethal), Lethal damage is standard as -10 or if specific overrides. because his regeneration specifically states that his minimum hp is -30, that is what the game considers his hard limit. the Non-functional Rules thread has how that works.

Miracle and Wish though have Spell Resistance no matter what. They do not have "See Text", they have "Yes"

Oops, brain fart, though the non-lethal thing converting to lethal would mean that the D2 crusader could kill it because its lethal damage would reach -10, meaning it wouldn't be dead, though it couldn't do anything until it is healed (fast healing would work, though it couldn't heal all the non-lethal damage in one round), if it works that way, though it doesn't.

A Cleric 9/Crusader 1/RKV 10 could do it with Supernatural transformation, and miracle SLA w/ DMM heighten spel+extra spell slot to get a 17th level slot to get miracle at will SU, then you can use a bunch of swift actions to cast a bunch DMM quickened spells (DMM quickened miracle for limited wish, D2 the tarrasque, next round, SU miracle him to death).

[Heliomance]

Oops, brain fart, though the non-lethal thing converting to lethal would mean that the D2 crusader could kill it because its lethal damage would reach -10, meaning it wouldn't be dead, though it couldn't do anything until it is healed, though Cleric 9/Crusader 1/RKV 10 could do it with Supernatural transformation, and miracle SLA w/ DMM heighten spel+extra spell slot to get a 17th level slot to get miracle at will SU, then you can use a bunch of swift actions to cast a bunch DMM quickened spells (DMM quickened miracle for limited wish, D2 the tarrasque, next round, SU miracle him to death).

Note that, as elaborated on above, toapat is wrong there. There is no cap to non-lethal damage, and it never converts to lethal.

[rweird]

Note that, as elaborated on above, toapat is wrong there. There is no cap to non-lethal damage, and it never converts to lethal.

It works anyways. I didn't think non-lethal works the way toapat said it does either, though I decided to point out that the converting to lethal thing still won't save the tarrasque. I didn't divide it very well, editing now.

[toapat]

Oops, brain fart, though the non-lethal thing converting to lethal would mean that the D2 crusader could kill it because its lethal damage would reach -10, meaning it wouldn't be dead, though it couldn't do anything until it is healed, though Cleric 9/Crusader 1/RKV 10 could do it with Supernatural transformation, and miracle SLA w/ DMM heighten spel+extra spell slot to get a 17th level slot to get miracle at will SU, then you can use a bunch of swift actions to cast a bunch DMM quickened spells (DMM quickened miracle for limited wish, D2 the tarrasque, next round, SU miracle him to death).

nope, Fast healing does eat (slowly) through non-lethal damage. while it takes him 4 times as long to heal through it, both lethal and non-lethal are only limited abusability.

and 1d2 crusader doesnt work. Luck Domain's bonus is a modified 2, not a rolled 2. if it had said Treat it for all intents and purposes that you had rolled a 2, then you would have the shuriken that strikes with the power of DaWizard at lvl 7

[rweird]

nope, Fast healing does eat (slowly) through non-lethal damage. while it takes him 4 times as long to heal through it, both lethal and non-lethal are only limited abusability.

and 1d2 crusader doesnt work. Luck Domain's bonus is a modified 2, not a rolled 2. if it had said Treat it for all intents and purposes that you had rolled a 2, then you would have the shuriken that strikes with the power of DaWizard at lvl 7

I know fast healing heals it, though you only need 1 round for the miracle to kill it (if that). I guess you could use some other infinite damage thing (sanctum Miracle to duplicate a Twinned, Invisible Miracle (reduced via Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus [Evocation], and something like dweomerkeeper's Cloak of Mysteries, to get a total of +0 metamagic adjustments) to duplicate Twinned, Invisible Miracle, etc till you do a bunch of damage (duplicate a million vortexes of teeth, also a few spells like Orb of Fire/Ice/Force or what ever) to do infinite or NI damage).

[toapat]

I know fast healing heals it, though you only need 1 round for the miracle to kill it (if that). I guess you could use some other infinite damage thing (sanctum Miracle to duplicate a Twinned, Invisible Miracle (reduced via Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus [Evocation], and something like dweomerkeeper's Cloak of Mysteries, to get a total of +0 metamagic adjustments) to duplicate Twinned, Invisible Miracle, etc till you do a bunch of damage (duplicate a million vortexes of teeth, also a few spells like Orb of Fire/Ice/Force or what ever) to do infinite or NI damage).

stop giving me reason to change him from have Su Haste to having Perma-Spell Turning

[rweird]

stop giving me reason to change him from have Su Haste to having Perma-Spell Turning

Permanent spell Turning won't block SU abilities. Though Spell Turning is more powerful than haste, unless he has some spellcasting buddies that will buff him.

[Snowbluff]

stop giving me reason to change him from have Su Haste to having Perma-Spell Turning

Spell Turning would only work on a spell that targets it. And would a perma-Spell Turning only turn 1d4+6 spell levels? Or like 1d4+6 per round? Either way I think a Twin Wish would overwhelm it anyway.

[rweird]

Spell Turning would only work on a spell that targets it. And would a perma-Spell Turning only turn 1d4+6 spell levels? Or like 1d4+6 per round? Either way I think a Twin Wish would overwhelm it anyway.

Twinned Wish only counts as the level of the spell slot you used to cast it (I think), so while it would overwhelm it, it wouldn't overwhelm it by much.

[toapat]

Spell Turning would only work on a spell that targets it. And would a perma-Spell Turning only turn 1d4+6 spell levels? Or like 1d4+6 per round? Either way I think a Twin Wish would overwhelm it anyway.

my irritation is i dont know of a way to get the Inherent R16 Salient Divine Ability

Also, i think its 1d4+6 Per round. The monster of Legend template is supposed to be "Instant Tarrasque, just add Mook"

Added Spellfire Wielder to feats. Because evil

[Snowbluff]

Twinned Wish only counts as the level of the spell slot you used to cast it (I think), so while it would overwhelm it, it wouldn't overwhelm it by much.

Twin Wish would be 2 9th level spells when you cast it. Twin Spell just copies the spell apply the MM to.

[rweird]

Twin Wish would be 2 9th level spells when you cast it. Twin Spell just copies the spell apply the MM to.

I suppose you're right.

toapat: What ability is it you want, save giving it DvR 16, I don't think there are ways to do it, though you might be able to get something with about the same effect.

EDIT: Why does he have Lightning Mace? He doesn't have any maces unless you want to give up natural attacks, and then, he'd be a monster walking around with two maces. Also, when do you plan on applying Paragon's +13 Insight Bonus to stuff (it is very open ended, I think that the aguement critical should get a +13 insight bonus to threat range, giving it a range of 6-20/x3, or to critical multiplier, making it 18-20/x16)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Half-Golem would work for Spell Immunity to have infinite SR vs the Wish spell, making it effectively immortal.

Also, I'm taking it as granted that no one wants to bother with the Ikea Tarrasque project?

[rweird]

Half-Golem would work for Spell Immunity to have infinite SR vs the Wish spell, making it effectively immortal.

Also, I'm taking it as granted that no one wants to bother with the Ikea Tarrasque project?

What is the Ikea Tarrasque Project?

[Eldan]

A project a while ago on the forum with the goal to build a creature immune to almost everything, mostly by stacking templates. And at the lowest possible level.

[rweird]

A project a while ago on the forum with the goal to build a creature immune to almost everything, mostly by stacking templates. And at the lowest possible level.

So we have to beak Emerald Legion, or is this one based on applying templates to the Tarrasque?

[toapat]

I suppose you're right.

toapat: What ability is it you want, save giving it DvR 16, I don't think there are ways to do it, though you might be able to get something with about the same effect.

EDIT: Why does he have Lightning Mace? He doesn't have any maces unless you want to give up natural attacks, and then, he'd be a monster walking around with two maces. Also, when do you plan on applying Paragon's +13 Insight Bonus to stuff (it is very open ended, I think that the aguement critical should get a +13 insight bonus to threat range, giving it a range of 6-20/x3, or to critical multiplier, making it 18-20/x16)

Paragon's +13 to attack is overridden by pseudonaturals +15 to attack.

because a Slotless magical item (tattoo) of Aptitude turns all his weapons into 18-20x3s and lightning maces causes any light mace you are wielding into 15% repeaters. then IC pushes it into 30% repeaters. All his weapons then qualify as light maces

Half Golem IMO is a copout.

Divine Rank 16 applies Maximize to all dice rolls you have, basically to get 10 levels of reflect all the time

Technically the way to get something invincible ASAP is to get Tarrasque Regen, as well as Immunity to Supernatural abilities, Golem Spell immunity, and Immunity to attribute damage

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What is the Ikea Tarrasque Project?

This.

Also, a Dewomerkeeper is still a threat, since they can cast spells as Su abilities. Things like Greymantle and Trait Removal can still hose the target, bypassing SR entirely.

[rweird]

Paragon's +13 to attack is overridden by pseudonaturals +15 to attack.

because a Slotless magical item (tattoo) of Aptitude turns all his weapons into 18-20x3s and lightning maces causes any light mace you are wielding into 15% repeaters. then IC pushes it into 30% repeaters. All his weapons then qualify as light maces

Half Golem IMO is a copout.

Divine Rank 16 applies Maximize to all dice rolls you have, basically to get 10 levels of reflect all the time

Technically the way to get something invincible ASAP is to get Tarrasque Regen, as well as Immunity to Supernatural abilities, Golem Spell immunity, and Immunity to attribute damage

Special Attacks

A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.

The ELH goes into more details about how it can be applied, mentioning it increasing save DC, or Duration as well, it only would be overridden if you choose to boost to hit, though you could boost ability damage from Rotting Constriction, or threat range or multiplier for Augment Critical (you probably should find a way to get the tarrasque keen weapons, or give it improved critical [Light Mace] to increase its threat range more). For SLAs you could increase CL further.