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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    NO

    People who try to play Legend of the Five Rings like an anime are hated and mocked by all other players because they screw up the climate the system is for. This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.
    This, so much this.
    I had a guy like this in my L5R group and he was kicked out really fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.
    [snark]Right! It's a game you should play when all you know about Japan comes from Akira Kurosawa movies.[/snark]

    (Seriously, Rokugan has as much in common with feudal Japan as Middle-Earth has in common with medieval Europe.)
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    [snark]Right! It's a game you should play when all you know about Japan comes from Akira Kurosawa movies.[/snark]

    (Seriously, Rokugan has as much in common with feudal Japan as Middle-Earth has in common with medieval Europe.)
    Still, it has even less common with feudal Japan as shown in anime. And especially shonen anime, where number of things they have in common i literally in negative numbers. Ask any L5R fan, they will tell you how much people trying to play it anime style ruin it.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    NO

    People who try to play Legend of the Five Rings like an anime are hated and mocked by all other players because they screw up the climate the system is for. This isn't a game you should play when all you know about feudal Japan comes from anime.
    There was more to that paragraph you didn't quote. I suggested L5R for educational purposes, and note I also suggested 7th Sea. L5R is a brutal rpg steeped in japanese culture, 7th Sea is a high drama fantasy game without a lick of asian culture in it. They sue pretty much the same system. If you're making an RPG based on Anime tropes(which once again, I advise against), there may be some knowledge of value in playing both systems and comparing and contrasting them. Just maybe the game OP is looking for lies somewhere in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Anime is not a genre, it's a media. Shounen anime, however, is a genre. That's what everyone is talking about. There are actually several similarities between Yugi and Kenshin as characters. They are both brains over brawn types and they both have superpowered evil sides, for example. The story structure between both manga is also surprisingly similar - a few small arcs to introduce characters followed by a radical shift in storytelling as a saga begins.
    These series are more similar than, say, Dragonlance is to Song of Ice and Fire. And those are quite obviously in the same genre.

    However, when the OP mentions shounen anime he is obviously talking about fighting-focused shounen anime.
    I did mention Shounen anime. It's still an overly broad category that means little. Trigun, Last Exile, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Fullmetal Alchemist, and Dragon Ball Z can all fit into that broad catagory(and all are fighting-focued), but they're core engagement, the emotions they generate, are all very different. A game trying to capture any of those core engagements would likely look very different from one capturing any other.

    I believe if you're trying to make an Anime inspired RPG, you should first figure out what you're trying to make. Trying to make something cover too many bases is liable to end up covering none of them. As they say, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    "Shounen anime" is about as broad as "comic book superheros".

    Interestingly, there have been a number of RPGs made for the latter. I see no problem with undertaking to find a system optimized for the former.
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    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    "Shounen anime" is about as broad as "comic book superheros".

    Interestingly, there have been a number of RPGs made for the latter. I see no problem with undertaking to find a system optimized for the former.
    Actually, it's probably good to at least specify "Shonen action anime," because the grouping as a whole does include the occasional comedy or slice-of-life series.
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    I thought of Hellsing, Berserk and Madoka, but then I remembered they're seinen. BUGGER
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Actually, it's probably good to at least specify "Shonen action anime," because the grouping as a whole does include the occasional comedy or slice-of-life series.
    Good point.

    (Other thought..."shounen action anime" is a far more focused genre than, say, "sword and sorcery"...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyd211 View Post
    I thought of Hellsing, Berserk and Madoka, but then I remembered they're seinen. BUGGER
    Isn't Madoka shoujo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Isn't Madoka shoujo?
    It's a deconstruction of Mahou Shoujo, Seinen style.


    Creating a new setting needs something more than simply fishing through generic tropes, many of which are subverted or averted these days anyways.
    Picking a couple of series for inspiration, and then reworking them into something more suitable for an RPG is probably going to be more interesting

    Something like, Claymore + Pokemon or Hunter x Hunter + Fairy Tail -- two or more series which create something unique yet familiar when combined.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    It's a deconstruction of Mahou Shoujo, Seinen style.
    Wow, I totally did not know that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkEternal View Post
    I wanted to do a One Piece campaign in 3.5 before. I still think it could work if you basically say that there is no such thing as magic in your campaign setting, and all people basically use maneuvers like people from the Tome of Battle.

    The moves would of course have to be homebrewed, as would be the devil fruit powers(the devil fruit would of course be completely random). The devil fruit would basically add one extra school of moves, but would make the use sink like a rock. Since none of my friends ever watched the anime, they would basically be the Strawhat pirates going from island to island and battling various enemies. Alas, real life took the opportunity to ever put this into motion, plus the magic items and stuff would be the hardest probably too pull off.

    *Ahem.*

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Something like, Claymore + Pokemon or Hunter x Hunter + Fairy Tail -- two or more series which create something unique yet familiar when combined.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Something like, Claymore + Pokemon or Hunter x Hunter + Fairy Tail
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    CLAYMORE + POKEMON
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    It's a deconstruction of Mahou Shoujo, Seinen style.
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    I don't think power-ups are even that prominent in shounen anymore. The best shounen manga around (Hunter x Hunter, One Piece) lacks it completely and others downplay it (Fairy Tail). Xefa's idea is still awesome, though.
    Both of these have protagonists and villains who can power up!

    Gon even does an imitation of Super Saiyan 3 at the end of the Chimera Ant Arc (although that was a one-time deal), and Luffy's Gear Second and Gear Third abilities are pretty straight power ups.

    Not to mention Chopper's Rumble Ball enhancements, Sanji's Diable Jambe technique...
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2012-10-24 at 10:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    (Other thought..."shounen action anime" is a far more focused genre than, say, "sword and sorcery"...)
    Actually...

    Sword and sorcerer implies a setting, that is a medieval to, at latest, Renaissance setting where magic exists along side the mundane. As compared to High Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery also typically has a slightly more "realistic" setting, with more moral ambiguity, and where things like adventures and mages are seen with distrust rather than as heroes.

    Shounen action anime on the other hand implies three things. First it implies it's targeted at young males, which doesn't mean all that much. It also means it's animated with an eastern aesthetic, which means nothing in then context of a PnP RPG. All we have left is action, which is an overly generic term.

    I think it would be better to figure out what you're trying to make and not use overly broad labels. A Dragon Ball Z game would be Over the Top Fantasy Martial Arts, not Sounen Anime. Fullmetal Alchemist would be a Low Fantasy Steampunk game, not a Sounen Anime game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    Actually...

    Sword and sorcerer implies a setting, that is a medieval to, at latest, Renaissance setting where magic exists along side the mundane. As compared to High Fantasy, Sword and Sorcery also typically has a slightly more "realistic" setting, with more moral ambiguity, and where things like adventures and mages are seen with distrust rather than as heroes.

    Shounen action anime on the other hand implies three things. First it implies it's targeted at young males, which doesn't mean all that much. It also means it's animated with an eastern aesthetic, which means nothing in then context of a PnP RPG. All we have left is action, which is an overly generic term.

    I think it would be better to figure out what you're trying to make and not use overly broad labels. A Dragon Ball Z game would be Over the Top Fantasy Martial Arts, not Sounen Anime. Fullmetal Alchemist would be a Low Fantasy Steampunk game, not a Sounen Anime game.
    Shounen is defined not by setting but by themes, motifs, and a common plot progression. TTGL, FMA, and Trigun all follow the same basic plot progression of a youthful protagonist facing ever-increasing adversaries, generally pitting optimism against cynicism.

    That's focused enough to build a game around. It's just a parallel consideration. "Shounen" may be setting-agnostic, but that doesn't make it a nebulous term.
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    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Both of these have protagonists and villains who can power up!
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Gon even does an imitation of Super Saiyan 3 at the end of the Chimera Ant Arc (although that was a one-time deal)
    And that was pretty much the only type it ever happened, aside from the odd chimera villain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    and Luffy's Gear Second and Gear Third abilities are pretty straight power ups.
    Both Second and Third Gears are more like dangerous forbidden techniques than straight power ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    Not to mention Chopper's Rumble Ball enhancements, Sanji's Diable Jambe technique...
    If Rumble Ball is a power up, I'm guessing all werewolves have power ups as well? A transformation is not necessarily a power up, it just means you transform. Diable Jambe is a flaming kick, I can't see that as a power up as well (unless you mean Ken's Shouryuken is a power up, or that using flaming arrows is a power up).
    By "power up", I mean DBZ-style super modes, which are actually more prominent in the mahou shoujo genre than in fighting manga.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Blue standing for sarcasm is a forum meme, just thought you should know.
    *Sigh* of course it is, and of course, I'm colourblind.


    Ideally a "power up" is something justified by both the narrative and the world's magic/super ability system mechanics.

    Nen users in Hunter x Hunter were established to have an increase in effectiveness via significant self-imposed conditions -- this is why I think its wonderful for roleplaying purposes. Certainly there's the possibility to throw away your life and multiply your strength considerably in the process like Gon did, but you're not going to get out of the bargain at the end. Nor is a sacrificial last-stand something you can just pull out the moment you feel over-matched. Nen rewards bold and dynamic personalities willing to incur risk for greater gain, who strive to meet their goals with absolute resolve.

    Devil Fruit powers never increases, merely the way the user approaches them can become more imaginative and effective. This is what makes them interesting, how that creativity is potentially more important than what Devil Fruit you've happened to eat.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    Shounen is defined not by setting but by themes, motifs, and a common plot progression. TTGL, FMA, and Trigun all follow the same basic plot progression of a youthful protagonist facing ever-increasing adversaries, generally pitting optimism against cynicism.
    Putting it like that makes me think more 'Star Wars' than 'shounen'.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Even shounen series can be highly different from each other.

    Evangelion, Lucky Star and Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo are all shounen series. The first is so dark it's mistaken for seinen, the second is a slice of life, the third is an over-the-top surreal action-comedy. Same demographic, insanely different subject matter.

    ... Great, and now my mind has wandered into Bobobo/Madoka crossovers. How does this happen?
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyd211 View Post
    Even shounen series can be highly different from each other.

    Evangelion, Lucky Star and Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo are all shounen series. The first is so dark it's mistaken for seinen, the second is a slice of life, the third is an over-the-top surreal action-comedy. Same demographic, insanely different subject matter.
    That's why I wanted to narrow it down to the so-called "fighting series." They're the most identifiable genre as well as the one the OP specifically means, and while otherwise quite broad they tend to strongly share certain thematic elements.

    ... Great, and now my mind has wandered into Bobobo/Madoka crossovers. How does this happen?
    You're a horrble person and I would so watch that.
    Last edited by Sith_Happens; 2012-10-26 at 07:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    BEAUTY AS PUELLA MAGI *insert thread-derailing tangent about the subject"

    In any case, I think Bobobo actually qualifies as a Shounen Fighting series. It IS a parody of Fist of the North Star, after all.
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    I'm working on a similar system, so I have some advice:
    - Keep combat tactical, not completely narrative.
    The best shounen action series have combat as a main element. The most rewarding among those are when combat is consistent and tactical. How you do that is up to you - tactical positioning, reactions, some rock-paper-scissor component for maneuvers.
    - Use the power of emotions
    Allow characters to draw on the power of their emotions. In my game, I have the Power of Friendship, Power of Love and Power of Rage. Each time you use it, you gain a bonus to your rolls. It costs Conviction to use those, in my game, but you could do something different (such as restricting it by once a game or somesuch).
    - Allow for cooperative storytelling
    Almost all modern systems have means for the players to jump into the narrative and take control. Action points, hero points, plot points, you name it. Use a system like this, tailored to bring shounen action tropes into life. Allow players to spend points to declare a duel (and no one can interfere), to survive from certain death (if you have death rules at all), to come up with a new attack and so on so forth.
    - Don't make it be exclusively about combat
    As much as combat is important in action series, you need other strong elements. A good conflict resolution engine is always required for any game, but you should think about what you want your system to do well.
    Do you want advanced social interaction? You might use a intrigue system, such as that found on Song of Ice and Fire and Burning Wheel and/or a relationship system like Mecha & Manga and Bliss Stage.
    Do you want chases and movement to be exciting and interesting? Borrow from racing board games, from the Pathfinder chase rules and try not to be very tactical about it - just make stuff up, it's supposed to be fast.
    Do you want mysteries and investigation? Build your skill list to make that important, provide starting clues easily, keep a framework for mysteries.
    Don't try to do everything
    A genre system should not cover everything. That's what generic systems do. If you don't want your game to bother about something, don't include rules for it. A Dragonball game is pretty much just combat, a Darker Than Black game should have good stealth rules, a Neon Genesis Evangelion game should have mechanics for mental breakdown. Narrow it down. Your game does not have to cover eveything - we already have generic (and anime-inspired, even) games for that. Stick to your main guns.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyd211 View Post
    Evangelion, Lucky Star and Bobobo-Bo Bo-bobo are all shounen series. The first is so dark it's mistaken for seinen, the second is a slice of life, the third is an over-the-top surreal action-comedy. Same demographic, insanely different subject matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Lucky Star is a slice of life shounen series publised in Shounen Ace. Maybe you confused it with something else?

    I recently discored Ah! Megami-sama! is seinen and it surprised the hell out of me. It just feels like shoujo. Honey and Clover felt very much like seinen to me, but it's jousei. Live and learn, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Lucky Star is a slice of life shounen series publised in Shounen Ace. Maybe you confused it with something else?
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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Yeah, Darius, that Lucky Star is definitely a shounen series. As mentioned before, it's published in Shounen Ace.
    Unless you're confused about something else. Words would probably help.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    I don't consider it a shounen series. It's seinen.

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    Default Re: Creating a Shonen Anime-Style Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    I don't consider it a shounen series. It's seinen.
    Shounen is the target demographic. It's published in a shounen magazine. Something being shounen doesn't it mean it is childish compared to seinen, it just means it is target at children. Japan has very different standards for that.
    For example, Barefoot Gen is shounen. It's about the horrors of war, it's sad and some times depressing, the art is brutal.
    Ah! Megami-sama! is seinen. It's a light, sometimes even silly, comedy about relationships.
    Lucky Star is published in Shounen Ace. That's a magazine for kids. It is targeted at kids.
    Shounen/shoujo/jousei/seinen are not genres, they are target demographics.

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