General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Exthalion]

The Solars had a pretty reasonable case against Autocthon, as the creator of exaltations it is very possible he could have done something to remove them, or kill them all. He was also the Primordial they didn't have a good hold on, Gaia had a good reason not to turn on them. It wasn't that the Jadeborn were a threat by themselves, they weren't. They were a threat when coupled with Auto as their leader, giving them more power and technology. The reason they ultimately turned on him was trust. They just couldn't trust him to stay on their side.

That, and they existed because of his Fear. Since he appeared to be afraid of them, what would he create to deal with that fear?

[Story Time]

...because Amechra's commentary should be enforced...

Isn't it interesting how the Solars of the First Age either conquered, alienated, or drove off every potential ally that could possibly help them with their present predicament in Second Edition?

[Kobold-Bard]

...because Amechra's commentary should be enforced...

Isn't it interesting how the Solars of the First Age either conquered, alienated, or drove off every potential ally that could possibly help them with their present predicament in Second Edition?

That's insanity for you. Does a number on your logic.

[Turalisj]

...because Amechra's commentary should be enforced...

Isn't it interesting how the Solars of the First Age either conquered, alienated, or drove off every potential ally that could possibly help them with their present predicament in Second Edition?

The First Age should have remained undefined, news at 11.

[Story Time]

That's insanity for you. Does a number on your logic.

Speaking of logic, I still have a project with you in mind. ( Totally-Not-Maniacal-Laughter )

The First Age should have remained undefined, news at 11.

Despite how funny that comment is, I keep thinking it more and more. It'd be nice if Third Edition had a feature: How To Build Your Own First Age.

[Lochar]

Despite how funny that comment is, I keep thinking it more and more. It'd be nice if Third Edition had a feature: How To Build Your Own First Age.

If we didn't have relics of the first age still hanging around (Lunar and Sidereal Elders for starters), we'd have less issue with how the first age really worked, because it'd be a hell of a lot more nebulous.

[Story Time]

...I'm trying to figure out if that comment is supposed to address Second Edition or Third. ?????? Sorry for the confusion.

In the basic analysis, I agree. It'd be much more of a help to give a system for creating custom First Age artifacts than to pass out only a handful. Of course, I've got different tastes as a Player and GameMaster than others have.

[Lochar]

Edition agnostic.

I specifically pointed out the Sidereal/Lunar Elders from the first age as one of the major problems. Given that they're still alive, you have first hand, if biased, recollection of that Age. If it's supposed to be a mythical 'better' time that got ganked, then both those that were ganked and those that did the ganking shouldn't be around.

[Story Time]

...manuals-not-with-standing, all characterization is subject to the person running the game. What the Player-characters are told about ages past is entirely campaign dependent as each campaign is designed for a specific set of Players.

...at least, that's how I do things.


As for having a nebulous past, keeping age-spanning characters out of the equation would keep it more nebulous than less. I agree.

[Exthalion]

Given the really crazy stuff the Solars were upto, something like a lesser Time of Cascading Years could have been unleashed by the Usurpation. Or finished by it. Perhaps some Mad Twilight unleashed a best of all possible worlds machine at the end of the War and whoever was in power at the end of some specified time ended up with the past which most supported them.

Though this is mostly me trying to apply Imperial Mysteries to Exalted.

[Tavar]

I have seen a good developer discussion of the reasons for the geas, which essentially amount to the fact that the Exalted were champions of Humanity, and the Jadeborn were a massive threat to that. Their empire was huge, their industry untouched, and they had emense personal power.

[Exthalion]

I have seen a good developer discussion of the reasons for the geas, which essentially amount to the fact that the Exalted were champions of Humanity, and the Jadeborn were a massive threat to that. Their empire was huge, their industry untouched, and they had emense personal power.

Oh look, my argument. This technically doesn't answer the concerns the others have brought up about the Jadeborn having done nothing worthy of having the Geas brought down on their heads, but there was going to be a massive Cold War if nothing else.

[Kobold-Bard]

Speaking of logic, I still have a project with you in mind. ( Totally-Not-Maniacal-Laughter )

...

Well that's not suspicious or frightening at all.....

[Tavar]

Oh look, my argument. This technically doesn't answer the concerns the others have brought up about the Jadeborn having done nothing worthy of having the Geas brought down on their heads, but there was going to be a massive Cold War if nothing else.

Oh look, it's from a different source, though. And there are a couple of issues. For instance, the problem wasn't interaction, because the reason the Dragon Kings weren't treated in this manner is more to do with the fact that the vast majority of Dragon Kings died out, thus making them a non-threat. The Jadeborn didn't have this issue.

Also, the Jadeborn re-arranged their industry, turning off or re-purposing the parts that were supporting the Exalted's marvels. That was the starting point, because then the Exalted really internalized how strong and independent the Jadeborn were.

[Exthalion]

Oh look, it's from a different source, though. And there are a couple of issues. For instance, the problem wasn't interaction, because the reason the Dragon Kings weren't treated in this manner is more to do with the fact that the vast majority of Dragon Kings died out, thus making them a non-threat. The Jadeborn didn't have this issue.

Also, the Jadeborn re-arranged their industry, turning off or re-purposing the parts that were supporting the Exalted's marvels. That was the starting point, because then the Exalted really internalized how strong and independent the Jadeborn were.

I just meant that it was refreshing that someone else agreed with me.

[Story Time]

[...]I kinda want to play in a game where a bunch of Jadeborn and Dragon Kings meet in a bar[...]

Five pip manse? Palace-Temple of Ever-Flowing Liquors?

The biggest problem is where to set it. Depending on the time-frame it should be out-side, or under, the Scarlet Empire.

[Sith_Happens]

I won't take it as any more than a joke concept until you come up with a more plausible explanation than "they all met in a bar, and a Fiend happened to be there".

It is a joke concept. Doesn't mean you can't play it.

[Maugan Ra]

Hmm. Reading Masters of Jade at the moment... Am I right in thinking that the 'Liminal Exalted' have appeared virtually nowhere else? Because they keep being mentioned, and it intrigues and annoys me in equal measure.

[Kobold-Bard]

Hmm. Reading Masters of Jade at the moment... Am I right in thinking that the 'Liminal Exalted' have appeared virtually nowhere else? Because they keep being mentioned, and it intrigues and annoys me in equal measure.

They get mentioned all the time on the Exalted WW forum by the writers, because they know about them but we don't and it gives them endless pleasure tormenting us with vague clues and jokes we couldn't hope to understand yet.

But no, besides that they haven't been in any of the other books (at least I don't think they have, MoJ is the most comprehensive source on them at at rate).

[vegetalss4]

Hmm. Reading Masters of Jade at the moment... Am I right in thinking that the 'Liminal Exalted' have appeared virtually nowhere else? Because they keep being mentioned, and it intrigues and annoys me in equal measure.

Indeed, Masters of Jade is in fact their very first appearance in Exalted (or anywhere for that matter).

[Kiero]

Easiest way to do a Jadeborn/Dragon King game is to use the Time of Glory. Neither are broken/all but destroyed and no Exalts to steal their thunder, either.

[Morty]

The Liminals will be mentined in 3e core, though. I think so, at least.

[AmberVael]

Hmm. Reading Masters of Jade at the moment... Am I right in thinking that the 'Liminal Exalted' have appeared virtually nowhere else? Because they keep being mentioned, and it intrigues and annoys me in equal measure.

Masters of Jade mentions a number of things that aren't mentioned or explained elsewhere. Liminals, at least, will be expanded on.

Other things, like the Scorpion Empire, were simply named, without being explained, and without being pointed out as something that was not explained elsewhere and was not really ever meant to be explained. I'm not sure why the writers thought this was a good idea.

[Exthalion]

Masters of Jade mentions a number of things that aren't mentioned or explained elsewhere. Liminals, at least, will be expanded on.

Other things, like the Scorpion Empire, were simply named, without being explained, and without being pointed out as something that was not explained elsewhere and was not really ever meant to be explained. I'm not sure why the writers thought this was a good idea.

So players would get use to filling in their own blanks so they won't be disappointed when setting elements like the the First Age remains undefined.

[AmberVael]

So players would get use to filling in their own blanks so they won't be disappointed when setting elements like the the First Age remains undefined.

If an element of a setting is so undefined that all you really have of it is a name and a vague hint, what purpose does it actually serve? If the intention is to let the players and storytellers fill in their own blanks, you're better off giving them a real blank, without some arbitrarily limiting minor details tossed in for no real reason (and additionally, arbitrary details which are not easily spotted as such, which can send people tearing through their books trying to see if they've missed something. )

Now, I will say that in my experience, a creative endeavor actually tends to flourish when it has a bit of groundwork to expand on and some limits to where it can go- but if that's the intent here, I think it falls terribly short. To truly expand off something, you need more than a name and a hint to really get the mind going. You need a good balance between too much information (which prevents you from adding or changing anything), and not enough information (which binds you to dead weight).

In some cases, you can also give groundwork without necessarily limiting people to it, which is also a worthwhile option. By giving examples of things you can potentially do, while not making those examples canon, you provide the same benefit without the limiting drawbacks.

[Plague of Hats]

Not all story seeds are created equal.

[Exthalion]

In general, the frantically hunting through books is something the Devs would prefer not to write too much of. On the one hand it inspires people to purchase more books, but on the other it means what they write is useless to part of the fanbase.

One of the problems the devs are trying to combat is that people haven't been doing any creative work no matter how much or little info is given. They latch on to every word, even if it is just a hint, and debate the nuances of these. "No, your An Teng can't have eunuchs because we read nothing about eunuchs in the books and that is a detail important enough it should have been mentioned." 2E had too much of a finished or set in stone quality and people got upset if things were different because they had a massive body of self referencing literature that backed a particular way the world was.

It didn't matter that there were undefined portions the size of continents on the maps, if it wasn't mentioned why was it there?

As for a name and a hint, I actually rather like that. Its like those places on old maps that said, "Here Be Dragons." You get enough to construct your own fanciful descriptions but not enough that anyone's thoughts are conclusively proven wrong.

[Andreaz]

It's a rather big task, but "a vague hint" is not what I think the first age is meant to pass. Its purpose is to show just how much civilization fell, and how they mundanely accomplished little tasks that to the new men seemed like pure wizardry.

Ruins are key here. I feel the depiction of the ruins of the first age was mostly correct. The mistakes came in two other places:
1) They kept giving facts about the first age. The biggest culprits are the Dreams of the First Age book and the Wonders of the Lost Age book.
2) They made the actual first age good stuff...suck. The age is lost. Its heights came to be due to the combined efforts of seven hundred celestial exalted working in unison and helped by a functional heaven and an entire civilization of crafters, with full permission to work on an increasingly larger, bountiful world that was theirs to command. A single solar hiding in a cave should not be able to reproduce anything near what was made in the first age.
So whatever remains should be wondrous and impossible to maintain. A solar might be able to maintain it functional for a long time, maybe even indeterminate...but not repair what already broke, much less make a new one from scratch. On top of that hints should be given that what remained was only what they built to last! Bleeding edge tech tended to require more maintainance and didn't survive the millenia.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Good idea, Andreaz ... and now take average player and tell him or her that she or he cannot do the same fanciful stuff that some unmentionable NPC's made with the help of whole lot of bonuses and crafters.

I imagine whining would pierce the heavens.

[TheCountAlucard]

Having a truly blank space isn't really all that awesome; coming up with something that fits in with the other stuff that's already there is difficult enough as it is, but giving one endless options to think through actually makes it tougher.

Also, planning on running a Gunstar Autochthonia game here for a couple of my RL friends; to pad out the group a bit, I'm considering allowing one more player. Players wouldn't have to post every day, but I am asking that said players at least be regular about it.