General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Rikandur Azebol]

With Abyssals ? Less Gore and more Philosophy. They would do the Solar thing but for the Underworld, for example transforming it from mess it is now into Afterlife ? So things and people reincarnate there, then hop back into Lethe after Afterlife's existence.

Something more proper than abomination the Underworld currently is.

Yeah, and they probably should kick ass of the all Oblivion fangirls out there. Oblivion doesn't need servants after all.

[Exthalion]

So, I've been reading the Abyssals stuff again, and wondering how one would make a system for them that made them distinct from just being 'Solars, only evil/dead'. And without just having them be Infernals, only for dead Primordials instead of living ones.

I was idly considering potentially linking it to death in a philosophical sense, with groups of charms based around different aspects or ideas about the dead. So 'Death is horrifying' would lead to a bunch of intimidation and fear-invoking abilities, but maybe also combat effects that are stronger against low-Valour foes. And 'Death comes to all things' would lead to tracking and divination abilities, maybe some athletics-related things.

Thoughts, suggestions, wild and contradictory theories?

I say split the difference. Have the Solar painted black to cover the core competencies then have their charms branch out into thematic based trees linked to various neverborn. I seem to recall reading that this was sort of the intent.

Though that might be a bad idea as the big thing with Infernals is that they don't have easy access to Solar charms to cover the gaping holes in their charms trees.

[omegalith]

People say the Yozis were over characterized in the Infernals book sometimes, and that it made the third circles seem inconsequential.

On one hand, I'd say that if there's anyone small-scale that the Yozis would take an interest in, it's their chosen superweapon champions. A non-elder Solar, Abyssal or whatever who tried to gain a Yozi's attention directly rather than talking to a component demon would likely fail and offend parts of the entity in the process of trying, but the Ebon Dragon does have an invested personal interest in seeing that his Fiends are doing well and so forth.

...On the other hand, there's really no reason said Fiend can't just politely wait until Erembour is between revels then pull her aside for a quick private word, given that ED can communicate through her perfectly well and his Jouten likely has bigger concerns.

So yeah, the compromise is to play up that since Yozi's Third circles are major parts of them, talking to their wrath or their libido still gets the message across directly if the overself has any reason to be paying close attention.

...And a good way of solving some of that "Everything is horrible" stigma the books played up in the fluff chapters is right their in the faction name: Green Sun Princes. Sure, the Ebon Dragon is the architect, but letting Liger take point on public relations and being the spokesdemon at the Althing would go a long way towards convincing new recruits they aren't wading neck-deep into a pact with unspeakable horrorterrors with no redeeming values.

It's not like he can't be in hundreds of places at once and couldn't be characterized as appreciating the chance to prove himself a better patron than Sol, after all.

...And of course the other reclamation conspirators would also assign one soul the duty of handling appearances at the Althing and conversing with their servants. Less invested but interested Yozis might send along a second circle to observe once in a while.

[TimeWizard]

Mentlegen and Celestial Ladies, I have a question. I have seen on this very forum something called the "Dawn Solution" or similarly named. It was a rule or errata of some kind that made "I have 5 combat abilities but I'll only ever need two this is poorly designed" Dawn Caste's better at combat. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? I'd like to hear more about it, because I'm probably going to make a Dawn Caste soon.

You may now return to talking about Infernals, the rock stars of Hell.

[Yuki Akuma]

It was a three-part Ink Monkeys update that cleaned up Dawns a bit. It was rolled into the 2.5 errata pretty much wholesale.

The "Martial" and "Shared" keywords are thanks to the Dawn Solution.

[SiderealDreams]

People say the Yozis were over characterized in the Infernals book sometimes, and that it made the third circles seem inconsequential.

On one hand, I'd say that if there's anyone small-scale that the Yozis would take an interest in, it's their chosen superweapon champions. A non-elder Solar, Abyssal or whatever who tried to gain a Yozi's attention directly rather than talking to a component demon would likely fail and offend parts of the entity in the process of trying, but the Ebon Dragon does have an invested personal interest in seeing that his Fiends are doing well and so forth.

...On the other hand, there's really no reason said Fiend can't just politely wait until Erembour is between revels then pull her aside for a quick private word, given that ED can communicate through her perfectly well and his Jouten likely has bigger concerns.

So yeah, the compromise is to play up that since Yozi's Third circles are major parts of them, talking to their wrath or their libido still gets the message across directly if the overself has any reason to be paying close attention.

...And a good way of solving some of that "Everything is horrible" stigma the books played up in the fluff chapters is right their in the faction name: Green Sun Princes. Sure, the Ebon Dragon is the architect, but letting Liger take point on public relations and being the spokesdemon at the Althing would go a long way towards convincing new recruits they aren't wading neck-deep into a pact with unspeakable horrorterrors with no redeeming values.

It's not like he can't be in hundreds of places at once and couldn't be characterized as appreciating the chance to prove himself a better patron than Sol, after all.

...And of course the other reclamation conspirators would also assign one soul the duty of handling appearances at the Althing and conversing with their servants. Less invested but interested Yozis might send along a second circle to observe once in a while.

Part of it was that well. Third Circle Demons never really got a piece in the setting before Infernals to begin with then the hardcover shut the door on them. Before Infernals we got little mechanical exposure and while fluff is good the game was trending in the direction of stating the biggest movers and shakers. With that set up for the fanbase, even with the poor execution of Deathlords and the better for the most part execution on the Incarna. The ground was set with the fanbase. As a lot of folks were excited about what the Glories books gave.Enter Infernals. Due to not wanting to just shut the door on them the way earlier depictions of the Yozis did as it pertains to the prospects of escape. The door was opened for stories about the Yozis escaping. Combine that with the wow transhumanism! factor of Green Sun Princes using the charms of the Yozis and all the focus mechanical and fluff wise shifts to the Yozis directly. Third Circles never got a headstart to begin with and quickly were left in the dust of wordcount.

I like Infernals and ever since the first hints of them in 1e I was excitedly awaiting the reveal on the Green Sun Princes. But the professed shift of the Yozis to the background and the bits you can interact with in the various circles of demons sounds like a welcome change.

[omegalith]

Part of it was that well. Third Circle Demons never really got a piece in the setting before Infernals to begin with then the hardcover shut the door on them. Before Infernals we got little mechanical exposure and while fluff is good the game was trending in the direction of stating the biggest movers and shakers. With that set up for the fanbase, even with the poor execution of Deathlords and the better for the most part execution on the Incarna. The ground was set with the fanbase. As a lot of folks were excited about what the Glories books gave.Enter Infernals. Due to not wanting to just shut the door on them the way earlier depictions of the Yozis did as it pertains to the prospects of escape. The door was opened for stories about the Yozis escaping. Combine that with the wow transhumanism! factor of Green Sun Princes using the charms of the Yozis and all the focus mechanical and fluff wise shifts to the Yozis directly. Third Circles never got a headstart to begin with and quickly were left in the dust of wordcount.

I like Infernals and ever since the first hints of them in 1e I was excitedly awaiting the reveal on the Green Sun Princes. But the professed shift of the Yozis to the background and the bits you can interact with in the various circles of demons sounds like a welcome change.

Eh, Third Circles got covered in the associated setting book. The manuals are about playing as that character type, and everyone gets an associated setting book except for Solars, who are pretty much just expected to trample all over everyone else's settings.

It's kinda like how the Sidereal book doesn't quite say enough about the Gods to use them without buying another book or making a lot of it up yourself.

I don't actually like the idea of shifting the Yozis to the background: Just make it more obvious that talking to their libido or their ability to command dreams is how normal people get to speak to them, and that walking up to a planet sized hurricane and waving your arms around isn't likely to result in a spirited debate. You aren't big enough to command her full attention.

[SiderealDreams]

Eh, Third Circles got covered in the associated setting book. The manuals are about playing as that character type, and everyone gets an associated setting book except for Solars, who are pretty much just expected to trample all over everyone else's settings.

It's kinda like how the Sidereal book doesn't quite say enough about the Gods to use them without buying another book or making a lot of it up yourself.

I don't actually like the idea of shifting the Yozis to the background: Just make it more obvious that talking to their libido or their ability to command dreams is how normal people get to speak to them, and that walking up to a planet sized hurricane and waving your arms around isn't likely to result in a spirited debate. You aren't big enough to command her full attention.

Covered yes, but that in and of itself not saying much. They never received the sort of narrative and mechanical love that was heaped on other things so once Infernals came and cemented a focus on the Yozis proper. It put to rest a lot of the potential to do so.

From what Holden and co have said. What we get out of the Yozis wont be much different than what you are saying. With the more concrete and regular interaction, particularly mechanically. Will be with their subsouls.

[Andreaz]

It was a three-part Ink Monkeys update that cleaned up Dawns a bit. It was rolled into the 2.5 errata pretty much wholesale.

The "Martial" and "Shared" keywords are thanks to the Dawn Solution.

Most of what the Dawn Solution did was give you perks for picking up more than one or two combat abilities.
You still don't need them, so your 2-ability investment is still the bigger part of the curve, but there's going to be real gains for learning more.


For example, there's a charm in Thrown that says "At join battle, reflexively attack everyone under you in the JB roll once". It works with any combat ability :p

[Lix Lorn]

For example, there's a charm in Thrown that says "At join battle, reflexively attack everyone under you in the JB roll once". It works with any combat ability :p

I once used that charm to kill fourteen extras before combat started.

[Exthalion]

I once used that charm to kill fourteen extras before combat started.

That almost sounds like grounds for an expansion that forces a valor check to not run away in terror.

[aetherialDawn]

That almost sounds like grounds for an expansion that forces a valor check to not run away in terror.

I don't quite understand why anyone would waste a charm on that. The valor check will happen anyway if the ST is paying any attention...

[Exthalion]

I don't quite understand why anyone would waste a charm on that. The valor check will happen anyway if the ST is paying any attention...

Because some STs never ever call for those kinds of things. I don't understand why anyone would ever waste a charm on Peerless Paragon of (Craft) either yet the charm exists.

[Andreaz]

I don't quite understand why anyone would waste a charm on that. The valor check will happen anyway if the ST is paying any attention...

Yup. Any time the state of the combat shifts wildly a valor check is forced on most stuff (exalts are exempt) to avoid routing, difficulty based on how nasty opposition is. Things like an exalt flaring his anima the first time, massive reinforcements arriving, everyone in 5 yards exploding to smithereens before anyone even moves...

[Qwertystop]

Because some STs never ever call for those kinds of things. I don't understand why anyone would ever waste a charm on Peerless Paragon of (Craft) either yet the charm exists.

What's Peerless Paragon?

[Lix Lorn]

That almost sounds like grounds for an expansion that forces a valor check to not run away in terror.

I believe there were two extras left, one of whom was unconscious. As it happens, the other MIGHT have run away.

[Exthalion]

What's Peerless Paragon?

Adds Essence/2 autosuccess to any roles made with the Craft you purchased it for. You have to repurchase it at full price for every single craft skill you want its effects for.

Given that most solar crafters have a big enough raw dicepool to make anything even without excellencies. (and get free exceptional quality fairly often) and that most dedicated artifact crafters finish artifacts in days a few 3 autosuccess a roll doesn't contribute much.

[Tavar]

Because some STs never ever call for those kinds of things. I don't understand why anyone would ever waste a charm on Peerless Paragon of (Craft) either yet the charm exists.

That's less a problem with the charm, and more a problem with the Craft system. Which is horrendous.

[golentan]

Adds Essence/2 autosuccess to any roles made with the Craft you purchased it for. You have to repurchase it at full price for every single craft skill you want its effects for.

Given that most solar crafters have a big enough raw dicepool to make anything even without excellencies. (and get free exceptional quality fairly often) and that most dedicated artifact crafters finish artifacts in days a few 3 autosuccess a roll doesn't contribute much.

Actually, without access to Wyld Cauldron or Factory Cathedral advantages, even the best crafter has to make several rolls each taken a not insignificant amount of time in order to complete an artifact, even using excellencies and speed enhancers.* Peerless Paragon nullifies about half the cost of the typical combo used for rapid crafting (Craftsman Needs No Tools + 2nd excellency), prevents botches, and allows instant success on lower level mortal craft projects, all free of charge.

*Also, everyone always seems to forget about the rare ingredients used. Some of them can be quite difficult to obtain.

[Exthalion]

Actually, without access to Wyld Cauldron or Factory Cathedral advantages, even the best crafter has to make several rolls each taken a not insignificant amount of time in order to complete an artifact, even using excellencies and speed enhancers.* Peerless Paragon nullifies about half the cost of the typical combo used for rapid crafting (Craftsman Needs No Tools + 2nd excellency), prevents botches, and allows instant success on lower level mortal craft projects, all free of charge.

*Also, everyone always seems to forget about the rare ingredients used. Some of them can be quite difficult to obtain.

As a player of primarily Twilights I can say from experience that mortal craft projects don't need the help.

The craft interval for artifact as E3 with CNNT and no other booster is 9.3 days. This is massive compared to some of the E5 builds that are rolling more than once a day, but to the poor terrestrials it requires literal deals with the Yozi to even approach. Past a certain point speed booster increases are of very limited use.

Given that one roll represents several days at that point blowing every mote of essence you can spend on the roll isn't a big deal in the long run. While for early crafters trying to pump out 3 dot artifacts it could be useful, that is very niche.

Without helpers our intrepid E3 solar will get 11.5 round up to 12 successes on average per roll. For a 1 dot artifact they need a single interval. A 2 dot will be four intervals and a 3 dot 8 intervals. If they paid some mortal blacksmiths to help them they could easily shave an interval off of both the two and three dot. This is not insignificant, but it is also so fast by mortal or even DB standards that in is very impressive.

The two success from PPo(C) comparatively not that important in any of those calculations except in so much as they save you from having to higher assistants. My point wasn't that the charm does nothing, only that it isn't worth 8 xp. (especially when the background for those assistants is 3xp.)

[golentan]

As a player of primarily Twilights I can say from experience that mortal craft projects don't need the help.

The craft interval for artifact as E3 with CNNT and no other booster is 9.3 days. This is massive compared to some of the E5 builds that are rolling more than once a day, but to the poor terrestrials it requires literal deals with the Yozi to even approach. Past a certain point speed booster increases are of very limited use.

Given that one roll represents several days at that point blowing every mote of essence you can spend on the roll isn't a big deal in the long run. While for early crafters trying to pump out 3 dot artifacts it could be useful, that is very niche.

Without helpers our intrepid E3 solar will get 11.5 round up to 12 successes on average per roll. For a 1 dot artifact they need a single interval. A 2 dot will be four intervals and a 3 dot 8 intervals. If they paid some mortal blacksmiths to help them they could easily shave an interval off of both the two and three dot. This is not insignificant, but it is also so fast by mortal or even DB standards that in is very impressive.

The two success from PPo(C) comparatively not that important in any of those calculations except in so much as they save you from having to higher assistants. My point wasn't that the charm does nothing, only that it isn't worth 8 xp. (especially when the background for those assistants is 3xp.)

Fellow player of twilights, and twilightoids here. Personal experience has painfully taught me that botches can happen any time you don't have auto successes, and three automatic successes costing 0m as opposed to six is actually quite a cost discount, and often worth the purchase of a charm. It's the same rational behind Infinite Ability Mastery, which has saved my keister repeatedly, and which by its nature is completely useless for craft projects. And it stacks with assistants, if you're using assistants as your comparison almost any dice adder is less effective than those background dots. The key is to combine your infrastructure with your innate talents to build something cost effectively and quickly without notifying the entire countryside that "Anathema is working Serious Juju here." Peerless Paragon helps with all steps of that.

As for the other complaint, that you have to buy it multiple times, given that almost all listed artifacts and the sort of thing the typical party ask for tend towards weaponry, armor, mechanical monstrosities and the like... They typically fall under the auspices of a few crafts (fire, magitech, and genesis cover about 90% of typical artifact construction in my experience). Meanwhile, manses follow their own rules and require a construction team and have a more or less fixed time anyway for a given workforce, so all told you can cover your bases pretty effectively for only a purchase or two. Hardly out of the way given how short and often superfluous the solar craft tree is. Now, this in itself is kind of borked, but there are plenty of good craft fixes out there.

Edit: Also, check out the probabilities. Mean is not everything, and a significant chance of low rolls carries on into relatively high dice pools.

[Exthalion]

Fellow player of twilights, and twilightoids here. Personal experience has painfully taught me that botches can happen any time you don't have auto successes, and three automatic successes costing 0m as opposed to six is actually quite a cost discount, and often worth the purchase of a charm. It's the same rational behind Infinite Ability Mastery, which has saved my keister repeatedly, and which by its nature is completely useless for craft projects. And it stacks with assistants, if you're using assistants as your comparison almost any dice adder is less effective than those background dots. The key is to combine your infrastructure with your innate talents to build something cost effectively and quickly without notifying the entire countryside that "Anathema is working Serious Juju here." Peerless Paragon helps with all steps of that.

As for the other complaint, that you have to buy it multiple times, given that almost all listed artifacts and the sort of thing the typical party ask for tend towards weaponry, armor, mechanical monstrosities and the like... They typically fall under the auspices of a few crafts (fire, magitech, and genesis cover about 90% of typical artifact construction in my experience). Meanwhile, manses follow their own rules and require a construction team and have a more or less fixed time anyway for a given workforce, so all told you can cover your bases pretty effectively for only a purchase or two. Hardly out of the way given how short and often superfluous the solar craft tree is. Now, this in itself is kind of borked, but there are plenty of good craft fixes out there.

Edit: Also, check out the probabilities. Mean is not everything, and a significant chance of low rolls carries on into relatively high dice pools.

For the 16 to 24 xp required you could buy the prereqs for Design Beyond Limit. A charm which is better than PPo(C) in every way. The solar craft tree is short, but even a dedicated crafter has other charms to spend xp on. Like WST which also has expensive prereqs.

[Turalisj]

For the 16 to 24 xp required you could buy the prereqs for Design Beyond Limit. A charm which is better than PPo(C) in every way. The solar craft tree is short, but even a dedicated crafter has other charms to spend xp on. Like WST which also has expensive prereqs.

Problem; DBL can't be bought at chargen without gimping yourself in other areas (like willpower). PPo(C), however, can.

[Exthalion]

Problem; DBL can't be bought at chargen without gimping yourself in other areas (like willpower). PPo(C), however, can.

Or you could pick up WECM and take over a country instead. Or IPP and never worry about shaping again. As golentan points out, exotic material components are the bottleneck far more often than speed or motes are. Meaning that taking literally one craft interval less for your artifacts at E3 will not matter very much in the long run.

While there are some occasions where ten days longer will be a big deal, in general it isn't going to kill the Dawn to wait another week for his Grand Daiklaive..

[Turalisj]

Because taking over a country is why ANYONE would play Exalted.

If you aren't in it to win it, you lose.

[golentan]

Problem; DBL can't be bought at chargen without gimping yourself in other areas (like willpower). PPo(C), however, can.

Also, again, IT STACKS! It's not an "either or," and the fact that some charms of higher essence are more powerful than other charms of lower essence is not a design flaw. PPoC is an essence 2, never botch, free success adder within a field of specialization with a single excellency as a prereq. Honestly, what more do you want? Should the bonus successes not count against dice caps? Maybe you would like it to summon the yozis and force them to sing your praises as they consign their fetiches to the forge as exotic components for your labors? It's a free, slightly lower-capped excellency for a second charm purchase, and if you really need that extra cap you can still use the normal excellency to supplement it. Exthalion, you keep showing you have an understanding of dice caps because you keep referring to the average successes and how they help speed the process. How is a charm which replaces those required excellencies with a 0m alternative, and which improves with your skills so horrible? Taken by itself, not comparing it against other things which do not replace it, only assist it, why is this such terrible design space? This is truly beginning to baffle me.

[Exthalion]

Because taking over a country is why ANYONE would play Exalted.

If you aren't in it to win it, you lose.

Also, again, IT STACKS! It's not an "either or," and the fact that some charms of higher essence are more powerful than other charms of lower essence is not a design flaw. PPoC is an essence 2, never botch, free success adder within a field of specialization with a single excellency as a prereq. Honestly, what more do you want? Should the bonus successes not count against dice caps? Maybe you would like it to summon the yozis and force them to sing your praises as they consign their fetiches to the forge as exotic components for your labors? It's a free, slightly lower-capped excellency for a second charm purchase, and if you really need that extra cap you can still use the normal excellency to supplement it. Exthalion, you keep showing you have an understanding of dice caps because you keep referring to the average successes and how they help speed the process. How is a charm which replaces those required excellencies with a 0m alternative, and which improves with your skills so horrible? Taken by itself, not comparing it against other things which do not replace it, only assist it, why is this such terrible design space? This is truly beginning to baffle me.

Cute, both of you. Really, upon reading your posts I put on sackcloth and ashes and repented all my sins. Or not, sackcloth is surprisingly hard to find.

Allow me to try to come at this from a different direction. I will use a quote from Oadenol's codex which, despite its numerous flaws, had quite a few gems. One of them was this:

Artifacts should do more than add dice. More than anything else, an artifact should be fantastic. Daiklaves are larger than life, befitting the heroes who wield them. Spell-capturing cords are interesting and duplicated nowhere else. But no one fits an arrow to a bow and exults that it adds two dice. Excellencies can do that, and better. Artifacts should do wondrous things that leave normal rules behind.

I feel the same thing should apply to charms, especially solar charms. PPo(C) is above all else boring. No, I don't want the Yozi to come and sing my praises; they sing off key anyway. I would like for Solars, who are already the best crafters in the world with CNNT+2nd Excellency, to have charms in their tree that do things besides just give successes or dice which is what the excellency is for.

I might even be okay with the effect if it did something besides mildly improve mundane competency. Right now it seems like adding an artifact level and adding another O to a weapon.

As to a 0m freedom from botching: Why were you not using the second excellency or Sun forbid just spend a WP to avoid it if the consequences were that bad? Even the most twinked out* craft roles still take hours meaning you could have gotten the motes or wp back.

*I may be underestimating the true heights of GTtMH+TSLP+SFSF+etc. absurd.

[Plague of Hats]

Should the bonus successes not count against dice caps?

They already don't, like most (all?) other non-Excellency success-adders.

It's still a really boring Charm.

Without helpers our intrepid E3 solar will get 11.5 round up to 12 successes on average per roll. For a 1 dot artifact they need a single interval. A 2 dot will be four intervals and a 3 dot 8 intervals.

To complete a one-dot artifact in a single interval would require 13 successes. At 12 successes per interval, you would produce a three-dot artifact in 9 intervals, not 8.

[Exthalion]

They already don't, like most (all?) other non-Excellency success-adders.

It's still a really boring Charm.

To complete a one-dot artifact in a single interval would require 13 successes.

Ah, sorry about that. I read something along the lines of my incorrect assumption in one of the threads discussing crafting on the WW forums and assumed I had been wrong. Thank you for letting me know.

[Turalisj]

Say, Plague, while you're around, could there be an official ruling on stacking Hearthstone Bracers + misc? Like Jade Hearthstone Bracers + Jade weapon or Moonsilver Bracers + Armor + Moonsilver Infinite Resplendent Amulet?