Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

[shaddy_24]

I'm in the camp that can't see Redcloak being happy retiring if the goblins are anything less than rulers over all other races. He's profoundly speciesist, by his own admission, and the idea of goblins being merely equal to humans, elves and dwarves would probably disgust him.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think I could forgive the Giant if this world just ends with a return the status quo of Adventurers killing Goblins for phat loots and giggles.
On the other hand, a mere reversal would also displease me greatly.

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't think I could forgive the Giant if this world just ends with a return the status quo of Adventurers killing Goblins for phat loots and giggles.
On the other hand, a mere reversal would also displease me greatly.

We all know the Giant is smarter then this. This break that he has had with his arm only means he has the time to plan out everything he wants in a 100% better detail.

[Mike Havran]

He's profoundly speciesist, by his own admission, and the idea of goblins being merely equal to humans, elves and dwarves would probably disgust him.

Redcloak loathes humans, but that doesn't mean he looks down on other non-goblinoid races, or that the goblinoids should rule them all.

[factotum]

Redcloak loathes humans, but that doesn't mean he looks down on other non-goblinoid races, or that the goblinoids should rule them all.

His entire Plan revolves around "getting a fair deal" for goblinoids, which pretty much means they need to take something from the other humanoid races. I don't think Redcloak particularly cares which other race loses out in order for his vision to come to pass--if it happens to be humans, so much the better, but if he were offered the chance to wipe out all the Elves and put the goblinoids in their place, do you seriously think he'd refuse?

[Deepbluediver]

Just had another thought while reading some stuff on TVTropes about OotS.

Spoilered because it contains information from SoD, and because I honestly find the very idea kind of depressing.

Spoiler

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In SoD, Redcloack has an argument with his brother when Right-eye delivers the following line (as part of a longer debate about their relationship with a certain undead meglomaniac):
"And this deal with Xykon is killing our spirit as fast as it's killing our bodies."

What if the whole history of this world is a sort-of prequel to the D&D world as we know it, and the goblinoid races end up either associated with evil, or even pushed further towards chaotic and indiscriminate slaughter by their association with Xykon? Essentially, that turns Redcloak's motivation trying to help better the lives of his kind into the reason why they become the kill-on-sight monsters to every other adventuring group.

[WoolenSocks]

I think Redcloak is being set up to change sides. He's much more sympathetic a villain, his relationship with Xykon is deteriorating, and his dream is very much becoming a reality without the help of the gate. I think he'll realize that protecting Gobbotopia is a worthier and more achievable goal than unmaking the universe. At least I hope so. I'd like him to have a happy ending.

[Mike Havran]

His entire Plan revolves around "getting a fair deal" for goblinoids, which pretty much means they need to take something from the other humanoid races. I don't think Redcloak particularly cares which other race loses out in order for his vision to come to pass--if it happens to be humans, so much the better, but if he were offered the chance to wipe out all the Elves and put the goblinoids in their place, do you seriously think he'd refuse?

Of course not. But as you said, the point is "getting a fair deal" in the usual sense, not "won't stop until we rule the world" (like Shaddy sugested). For a guy who is willing to risk blowing up the whole creation, Redcloak is still pretty pragmatic and I believe there will come a point in his crusade when he says enough is enough and will not push it further to the extreme (provided Xykon has been dealt with already).

[Deepbluediver]

I think Redcloak is being set up to change sides. He's much more sympathetic a villain... *snip*
I'd like him to have a happy ending.

Eh. He's got a lot of blood of his hands (figuratively speaking). Given how much crap some of our "good" characters get put through, I think it would feel like cheating to just let him off the hook.

I'm thinking that Redcloak might have some kind of Varsuvius-style moment, where he has (or had had) a big life-changing epiphany, and then the past actions of his pre-enlightened self come back to bite him in the ass anyway.



I'm also assuming that in the grand scheme of things, the story will have some kind of bittersweet ending, but it's fun speculating who will end up where, with what, and with whom.

[Scowling Dragon]

Like Batman Brave and the Bold says:

There are characters motivated by Justice, and those motivated by VENGEANCE!

Redcloak is the latter.

He doesn't deserve a happy ending, and it would be so ineffective if it happened.

He is destroying the little goblin reputation there is left, and indulging in brutal acts of awfulness.

[Clistenes]

I say Redcloak's quest for the gate ends up destroying Gobtopia somehow. That would be appropriately tragic.

Gobtopia is below one of the Snarl Rifts...they will be lucky if they end just destroyed. I bet the plan will backfire and the Snarl will unmake them, souls and bodies.

Also, it has been stated that the gods can seal the Rifts, it's just that they would have to destroy the world to do so...and since at least Thor and the Twelve Animal Gods know about Xykon, Redcloak and the Rifts, I doubt they would allow Team Evil to turn the Snarl into an anti-god weapon; if they are ever close to winning, they will probably destroy the world, harvest their faithful's souls, kill the Dark One and remake the world without goblins.

[snoopy13a]

There's a big difference between Redcloak and Xykon: Xykon is funny. Of course, that's because Redcloak is the straight man--Bert to Xykon's Ernie. But while the straight man is necessary, it isn't funny if he straight man wins.

So, Redcloak won't win because it wouldn't be funny.

[JennTora]

My personal hope lies within "Snarl is actually not a terrible, reality devouring abomination (anymore), despite what everybody seems to believe in" territory.

What, like:

Roy: Elan, hurry up and fire the snarl killing doodad!

Elan: No.

Roy: Have you lost your mind?!?!

Elan: (looks at the gods standing above him in the sky) When the snarl attacked the first time, who struck first?

Gods: umm... well it was big, and scary and um... we did...

That would be kind of interesting...

I kind of wonder if elan will at some point save Redcloak's life, maybe with neutralize poison? And that might be what makes Redcloak finally question the plan(Holy crap there ARE nice humans after all). I mean Elan is foolishly concerned for the well being of people who would love to kill him. If anyone in the order would save redcloak's life in such circumstances it's Elan.


As to what happens if redcloak wins, Xykon kills him upon finding out the ritual doesn't give him control of the snarl, then Redcloak gets to see What the dark one does first hand. Not having read SOD my knowledge of the dark one is limited, but I think he'll start with equality, but later attempt a takeover with the army of gobhalla there when it gets big enough.

[Arcanist]

Elaborate. Are you implying Asmodeus isn't smart? Because absolute rule is kind of his ultimate goal, he's just really patient.

And what makes you think the Dark One is particularly smart? Again, he's preparing for war (based on Jirix's vision.)

Asmodeus is described as an omniscient being (which means he knows everything of relevance). By that definition it means he knows the Last Word (Hell, he was around before Time and Space had definition). He could easily just curb stomp the entire multiverse if he REALLY wanted to. Needless to say some "all knowing" individuals in the Multiverse just don't know what to do with their powers (Ironic right?)

Just had another thought while reading some stuff on TVTropes about OotS.

Spoilered because it contains information from SoD, and because I honestly find the very idea kind of depressing.

Spoiler

Show

In SoD, Redcloack has an argument with his brother when Right-eye delivers the following line (as part of a longer debate about their relationship with a certain undead meglomaniac):
"And this deal with Xykon is killing our spirit as fast as it's killing our bodies."

What if the whole history of this world is a sort-of prequel to the D&D world as we know it, and the goblinoid races end up either associated with evil, or even pushed further towards chaotic and indiscriminate slaughter by their association with Xykon? Essentially, that turns Redcloak's motivation trying to help better the lives of his kind into the reason why they become the kill-on-sight monsters to every other adventuring group.

I couldn't escape that feel even if I wanted too... I can imagine the Giant ending the whole thing the way the guy after me states it.

What, like:

Roy: Elan, hurry up and fire the snarl killing doodad!

Elan: No.

Roy: Have you lost your mind?!?!

Elan: (looks at the gods standing above him in the sky) When the snarl attacked the first time, who struck first?

Gods: umm... well it was big, and scary and um... we did...

That would be kind of interesting...

I kind of wonder if elan will at some point save Redcloak's life, maybe with neutralize poison? And that might be what makes Redcloak finally question the plan(Holy crap there ARE nice humans after all). I mean Elan is foolishly concerned for the well being of people who would love to kill him. If anyone in the order would save redcloak's life in such circumstances it's Elan.


As to what happens if redcloak wins, Xykon kills him upon finding out the ritual doesn't give him control of the snarl, then Redcloak gets to see What the dark one does first hand. Not having read SOD my knowledge of the dark one is limited, but I think he'll start with equality, but later attempt a takeover with the army of gobhalla there when it gets big enough.

Perhaps the entire multiverse gets destroyed and rewritten and the Surviving members of the Order of the Stick remains with the gods to help recreate creation. Elan (w/ a newly obtained Divine intelligence) helps pen the Book of Exalted Deeds (Go back and read it. Seriously you will feel like only writer as good aligned (and simple minded) as Elan could write it).

This is a reference to the section where it states that all sentient creatures, regardless of appearance, should be treated as equals

Like Batman Brave and the Bold says:

There are characters motivated by Justice, and those motivated by VENGEANCE!

Redcloak is the latter.

He doesn't deserve a happy ending, and it would be so ineffective if it happened.

He is destroying the little goblin reputation there is left, and indulging in brutal acts of awfulness.

This actually pertains to a discussion I had with my brother this morning on the topic of Hate, Forgiveness and Atonement. In our example I stole my Brothers root beer from our fridge and how much he would hate me for it. From then on he would never trust me or anyone else with his drinks in the fridge. The method of forgiveness would be someone (my girlfriend for example) giving him a Root Beer that she has. Suddenly he thinks "Oh my god. Not everyone is greedy for my drinks! Not everyone is the same! That one guy was just a massive jerk!"

It only takes one person to extend a little kindness to cure the poison of hatred and maybe... just MAYBE! Elan will be that one person for Redcloak Knowing my luck the Giant himself will pop down and say "WRONG!"

[Psyren]

Asmodeus is described as an omniscient being (which means he knows everything of relevance). By that definition it means he knows the Last Word (Hell, he was around before Time and Space had definition). He could easily just curb stomp the entire multiverse if he REALLY wanted to. Needless to say some "all knowing" individuals in the Multiverse just don't know what to do with their powers (Ironic right?)

Neither BoVD nor FC2 consider him all-knowing. (Certainly he knows everything worth knowing in Hell, but that has more to do with his extensive network of spies in the other archdevils' domains... which he wouldn't need if he were truly omniscient.) So yeah - he's smart, but he's no Vecna.

However, my point was that - despite not actually being a deity, his attitudes are typical of such beings - the LE ones, to be precise. Capable of cooperation, certainly, but always from a position of strength/dominance if the option presents itself. He has no respect for the other Lords of Nine, because he knows he is their better. (He even thaws out Levistus every year for his annual board meetings, just to re-freeze him when they're over.) If he had a trump card like the Snarl, he wouldn't wipe out the other gods immediately, but he certainly would be running the show before long - and I find it hard to think of any LE deity or deific figure who would behave differently under those circumstances.

[Belril Duskwalk]

One big thing that recently occured to me: hasn't Redcloack already won? (at least sort of?)

The new city of Gobtopia is a metropolis run by goblins, with a port, infrastructure, and (I'm presuming) some decent farm or ranch land that city uses for food. It has enemies, but also allies. It is, at least on some level, exactly what Redcloack wanted: an even chance.

It would seem that he may very well have achieved his goal, and is still apparently focused on the quest he's spent essentially his entire life on.

The former Azure City was mentioned somewhere in the comic to have some of the most fertile farmland in the Southern Continent in the surrounding region that is considered a part of their nation, particularly the land surrounding the Blueriver Fort (which was the first Azurite resistance the Goblins met on their march). Gobbotopia is now in control of high quality farm land. I would agree that Gobbotopia is indeed most all of what Redcloak claims to have wanted in the first place.

However, Redcloak is a major sucker for the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Somewhere along the way, he decided that only The Plan would get the Goblins the fair shake he wants. As such, he's decided that any lives lost in pursuit of The Plan would be lives wasted if he did not go through with The Plan. I think Redcloak has become so focused on The Plan that he is currently failing to notice that Gobbotopia already represents what he wants. As a result, he's going to keep pushing for The Plan, because he does not want to consider that he may have wasted the lives of many goblins trying to get where he is now only to stop here. I think how Redcloak's story ends is going to hinge heavily on when/if he ever realizes what he has already achieved.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I think it's at least possible that Redcloak has decided that he has everything he wants by now and he's only going along with Xykon because he knows there would be retribution if he didn't. Maybe he's just waiting for the chance to stab him in the back so that he can abandon the plan and go home again.

[ReaderAt2046]

Has anyone considered that Redcloack, knowing he has succeded at giving goblins an equal chance, might think he needs to go through with the Ritual to keep the gods from taking that chance away? In other words, the Dark One is not now planning to say "Give my people these things or I will unleash the deicidal abomination" but instead "Leave my people in peace or I will unleash the deicidal abomination".

[Arcanist]

Neither BoVD nor FC2 consider him all-knowing. (Certainly he knows everything worth knowing in Hell, but that has more to do with his extensive network of spies in the other archdevils' domains... which he wouldn't need if he were truly omniscient.) So yeah - he's smart, but he's no Vecna.

You're right. I have no idea who I was thinking about that Asmodeus knew of the Last Word until a friend recently corrected me. Orcus knows the Last Word, which makes me ask the question of why does a Nihilistic Demon Lord is not just go postal on the entire Multiverse. Well WoTC had an explanation for this in the form of:

A cabal of greater deities, in response to Tenebrous's predations, has since weakened the Last Word considerably.

And this can only be found on a Wikipedia article for Orcus. Unfortunately I can't find a conflicting source for this so I must accept it as fact. I might not like it, but it is how it is.

However, my point was that - despite not actually being a deity, his attitudes are typical of such beings - the LE ones, to be precise. Capable of cooperation, certainly, but always from a position of strength/dominance if the option presents itself. He has no respect for the other Lords of Nine, because he knows he is their better. (He even thaws out Levistus every year for his annual board meetings, just to re-freeze him when they're over.) If he had a trump card like the Snarl, he wouldn't wipe out the other gods immediately, but he certainly would be running the show before long - and I find it hard to think of any LE deity or deific figure who would behave differently under those circumstances.

After posting that comment I had an interesting revelation on the idea of "What would a 'win' for Asmodeus truly be?" and after a few days of thinking it finally hit me. Asmodeus doesn't wish to annihilate all competition, but to rule over them absolutely. A truly cosmic win for him would be for everyone to worship him. For the Lawful gods to kneel before him and realize that he has no equal. This has actually made me consider what my definition of a "Victory" is, but I'll save that for a Philosophy class or Group Therapy.

[Winter]

I think it's at least possible that Redcloak has decided that he has everything he wants by now and he's only going along with Xykon because he knows there would be retribution if he didn't. Maybe he's just waiting for the chance to stab him in the back so that he can abandon the plan and go home again.

(Re-)read SoD, then go back to the mirror scene. I very strongly doubt this theory hits it. Redcloak is going to get through with the plan. He very probably attempts to backstab Xykon (for this case he has kept his fingers on the phylactery) but not before The Plan has happened, has become pointless (e.g. Redcloak learns There Is No Snarl) or the plan becomes impossible (e.g. all gates are destroyed but the world is not unmade).

[Koo Rehtorb]

(Re-)read SoD, then go back to the mirror scene. I very strongly doubt this theory hits it. Redcloak is going to get through with the plan. He very probably attempts to backstab Xykon (for this case he has kept his fingers on the phylactery) but not before The Plan has happened, has become pointless (e.g. Redcloak learns There Is No Snarl) or the plan becomes impossible (e.g. all gates are destroyed but the world is not unmade).

Oh I don't think it's likely, but I think it's at least possible. People can change and seeing an actual functioning goblin society might be just the thing to finally make him decide that it's not worth it any more.

[A Tad Insane]

My hypothesis. Red cloak wins, and the Dark One decides a 'level playing field' isn't enough. He makes a complete reversal, were a few goblins can lease a humanoid city. Red cloak feels betrayed, because he has said that if gobliniods can thrive on equal terms, they should accept their lot. The oots, who have retained their levels by a deus ex machinima of some sort, go to punch the Dark One in the face, and run across Redcloak, who decides to make the inevitable battle into a relatively peaceful negotiations. I have no idea what might happen next, though

[Winter]

Oh I don't think it's likely, but I think it's at least possible. People can change and seeing an actual functioning goblin society might be just the thing to finally make him decide that it's not worth it any more.

If you mean "At least possible" = "Not completely impossible" than you are correct, but it still not more than "barely possible". If Redcloak gives up it will be because fate forces him to reconsider.
If a look at Gobbotopia would have made him reconsider he already would have done so. No, it will take much more than just that to reach the required insight.

[Mike Havran]

If a look at Gobbotopia would have made him reconsider he already would have done so. No, it will take much more than just that to reach the required insight.

Maybe not so much more. Right now, Redcloak's biggest problem is Xykon. Redcloak picked Xykon because he was unable to find a suitable goblinoid arcane caster. But now he has a safe city at his disposal, with money and library and everything. He may just pay some, I don't know, associate prof. from Warthog's to come and teach and train some Gobbotopia arcane casters. It might pretty well take some 30 years or so to make a good (and loyal) Xykon's successor, but it's not like Readcloak ages. He can wait.

So I think Redcloak may well follow Xykon just because a good opportunity of stabbing him in the back hasn't came yet. I know the above mentioned scenario won't happen because it would be pretty boring for the audience, but that doesn't mean Redcloak cannot plan it.

[sims796]

Maybe not so much more. Right now, Redcloak's biggest problem is Xykon. Redcloak picked Xykon because he was unable to find a suitable goblinoid arcane caster. But now he has a safe city at his disposal, with money and library and everything. He may just pay some, I don't know, associate prof. from Warthog's to come and teach and train some Gobbotopia arcane casters. It might pretty well take some 30 years or so to make a good (and loyal) Xykon's successor, but it's not like Readcloak ages. He can wait.

So I think Redcloak may well follow Xykon just because a good opportunity of stabbing him in the back hasn't came yet. I know the above mentioned scenario won't happen because it would be pretty boring for the audience, but that doesn't mean Redcloak cannot plan it.

I like the point you just bought up, it's something I haven't even considered. With what he has now, he could gain a Goblin caster eventually. Though I bet he's still with Xykon for more egotistical reasons than what you have mentioned, it would be great if the comic would address the point you've just made.

[Winter]

Maybe not so much more. Right now, Redcloak's biggest problem is Xykon. Redcloak picked Xykon because he was unable to find a suitable goblinoid arcane caster.

Redcloak's biggest problem is that all he did "must be worth it", he is a coward admitting he entered the wrong train decades ago and all the dead died for nothing. Redcloak cannot change horse now, he has to see it through.

He probably has gotten tens of thousands goblins killed in his attempt, a large number of those were unnecessary and Xykon slaughtered a fair number of them himself while Redcloak had other non-goblin goblinoids slaughtered for no reason at all ("Oh no, I am turning into Xykon!").

Redcloak even made Xykon. And even worse

Spoiler

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Among the dead are his brothers familiy. He murdered his own brother out of this cowardice (and to protect Xykon) and then admitted (by silence) he was a weakling and followed Xykon as his Bitch.

It ceased to be "Xykon was the only caster available" a long, looong time ago. When Redcloak decided to make Xykon undead, he entwined his own fate and the plan with right that arcane caster and none other.

Right-Eye is still an (the!) issue, see the mirror-scene in the comic. "You will see, it will all be worth it". This is what it is all about, not Xykon. And therefore, no matter what Gobbotopia becomes, Redcloak will not reconsider.
He did that once (SoD) - and he will not do it again. He cannot.

[Clistenes]

I like the point you just bought up, it's something I haven't even considered. With what he has now, he could gain a Goblin caster eventually. Though I bet he's still with Xykon for more egotistical reasons than what you have mentioned, it would be great if the comic would address the point you've just made.

At this point, Redcloak could probably make his own Gate, given enough time. He has the money, the people, the resources, and he is almost epic.

He could stay at Gobotopia and research and learn how to make a Gate, and groom a young goblin to become a wizard.

Even if the feels that he can't waste more time and wants to do the ritual NOW he could recruit somebody like Zz'dtri to play the arcane caster part, or recruit a natural sorcerer monster, like an Aranea, Rakshasa or Naga.

Xykon is a major obstacle, but he has already stolen his phylactery, so he may have a chance to choose his own path again if the heroes manage to destroy him again.

You know what? what pisses me more about Redcloak is that he already had TWO chances to kill Xykon. The first when the Order of the Stick destroyed his body in Dorukan's Dungeon and the second when he saved Xykon's Ass while fighting the paladin ghosts of Azure City. If he wastes yet another chance he would prove to be the lowliest piece of crap in his Universe.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I would say that stealing the phylactery proves that, at the very least, he is committed to the possibility that destroying Xykon might become his #1 priority.

If someone happens to destroy Xykon (even if Redcloak isn't actively seeking it at the time) then now he absolutely has to finish the job. If he let Xykon come back again then Xykon would immediately know about the theft of the phylactery and all bets would be off.

If finishing the plan with Xykon's help was really the top priority then I don't think he'd jeopardize that.

[Winter]

You know what? what pisses me more about Redcloak is that he has already had TWO chances to kill Xykon. The first when the Order of the Stick destroyed his body in Dorukan's Dungeon and the second when he saved Xykon's Ass while fighting the paladin ghosts of Azure City. If he wastes yet another chance he would prove to be the lowliest piece of crap in his Universe.

Plus the several ones he had in SoD, one of those were at the end where the scales were already balanced as they are now. And on top of that,

Spoiler

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Right-Eye explicitly told him just before the Lichification that Xykon was the wrong horse, but Redcloak went through with it to not have to admit he was wrong.

[Clistenes]

Plus the several ones he had in SoD, one of those were at the end where the scales were already balanced as they are now. And on top of that,

Spoiler

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Right-Eye explicitly told him just before the Lichification that Xykon was the wrong horse, but Redcloak went through with it to not have to admit he was wrong.

Yes,

Spoiler

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Redcloak should at least have tried some other way to escape before turning Xykon into a lich. On the other hand they had one of the Gates just there, and if they killed the elf druid they would already have victory at had.
The murder of Right Eye, on the other hand...they had another Gate there, that's true, and Redcloak probably thought that he had victory at hand again, but he already knew what a psycho Xykon was, and had watched Right Eye's family slaughtered because Xykon thought it funny...if Xykon died he still had the chance to train, adventure and become epic himself, and seize the Gate himself. And if Right Eye tried and failed to kill Xykon, he could probably still convince him to cast the ritual together. He didn't need to kill his own brother.
But now it's even worse. Thanks to Gobotopia, doing the ritual is not such a top priority anymore, and he has plenty resources and time to prepare himself to claim a gate or make one. And Xykon seems to be searching for a replacement for Redcloak as divine caster of the ritual. And also, they no longer have a Gate at hand, they have to work and fight to get one, so he can't say "if I help Xykon yet once again, tomorrow we'll make the ritual and everything will have ended well".

If Xykon's body is destroyed again and then Redcloak escapes with the phylactery (maybe thanks to Word of Recall), cast Antimagic Field, throws the phylactery into the area of effect, grabs a maul and smashes the thing while Xykon begs for mercy and Redcloak make a "why you suck" speech...I think I will cry out of happiness.