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  1. Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    If Xykon's body is destroyed again and then Redcloak escapes with the phylactery (maybe thanks to Word of Recall), cast Antimagic Field, throws the phylactery into the area of effect, grabs a maul and smashes the thing while Xykon begs for mercy and Redcloak make a "why you suck" speech...I think I will cry out of happiness.
    Redcloak doesn't consider Xykon to be anything other than a tool - a very dangerous tool, but a tool none-the-less. If the tool ceases to be useful, he'll destroy just as he did Tsukiko. *How* he might do that is a serious problem, but he's had decades to think about it and the only real issue is what countermeasures Xykon has prepared. This should be an epic battle ... which if I were to bet, Redcloak would win handily through social engineering magic. Redcloak understands what motivates Xykon: staying out of the Fire Down Below, and not being bored. Can RC betray Xykon in a way that doesn't seem obviously RC's fault and doesn't drive X to desperate measures to stay alive (er, undead. Or whatever!) ?
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    Redcloak doesn't consider Xykon to be anything other than a tool - a very dangerous tool, but a tool none-the-less. If the tool ceases to be useful, he'll destroy just as he did Tsukiko.
    That's what he says to himself when he lies to his own conscience. He never has thought of Xykon as a tool. He never told Right Eye "Xykon is just our tool".

    He has convinced himself that he's the one who has been manipulating Xykon from the beginning, when the truth is that Xykon humiliated him, ruined his life, destroyed his spirit and made him his bitch. He has convinced himself that he's in control because he can't face the truth.

    Now, if Redcloak lives up to his words and defeat and destroy Xykon, I could respect him.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    If Xykon's body is destroyed again and then Redcloak escapes with the phylactery (maybe thanks to Word of Recall), cast Antimagic Field, throws the phylactery into the area of effect, grabs a maul and smashes the thing while Xykon begs for mercy and Redcloak make a "why you suck" speech...I think I will cry out of happiness.
    We can all have our dreams, but (and I've said this before) Xykon doesn't strike me as the begging type. We saw him get about as close to total re-death as you can get at the end of the Azure city arc, when Soon and the ghost-paladins put the smackdown on our bony friend.

    He didn't beg for his unlife or spend time regretting, all he said was pretty much "meh, gave it my best shot".
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    I've been thinking about what your question actually is... The only way to answer it is to ask... What counts as Redcloak winning? Obviously his overall master plan is to use Xykon and his abilities to ultimately bring The Dark One to the world, to better the lives of all goblins.... but I like to think that Redcloak winning would mean being allowed to keep Gobbotopia, and resigning himself to that (with a warning to make sure that's all he gets from Roy perhaps?) would, I think, count as 'winning' for Redcloak.

    I personally would be quite happy for Redcloak to get to keep Azure City to be honest because let's face it:

    1. The paladins that used to control it were self righteous, morally misguided, manipulative [insert profanity here]s.

    2. The elves that are trying to take it back are violent, racist (dare I say evil?) [insert profanity here]s as well... SEE HERE

    In comparison to these guys, Redcloak looks like a brilliantly moral and noble leader.... At least he will be when he inevitably kills Xykon
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  5. Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    That's what he says to himself when he lies to his own conscience. He never has thought of Xykon as a tool. He never told Right Eye "Xykon is just our tool".
    To the contrary, Redcloak took the time to explain the tool business to Tsukiko just before killing her. He was perhaps gloating a bit about how he understood undead better than she did, or maybe just doing some exposition for the sake of the audience ... it doesn't matter. What he didn't say to his brother doesn't matter either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    He has convinced himself that he's the one who has been manipulating Xykon from the beginning, when the truth is that Xykon humiliated him, ruined his life, destroyed his spirit and made him his bitch.
    Non sequitur. Yes, X verbally abuses RC; so what? RC's put up with Tsikiko's humiliations explicitly for the sake of the Plan; why wouldn't he put up with Xykon's? RC's spirit is far from destroyed; he's enduring what he must to meet his goal. He may be evil but he has a very strong spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    He has convinced himself that he's in control because he can't face the truth.

    Now, if Redcloak lives up to his words and defeat and destroy Xykon, I could respect him.
    What truth? He's explicitly stated (to Tsukiko) that his full intention is to betray Xykon when the time is right. Whether that requires destroying Xykon, or merely playing Whack-A-Phylactery remains to be seen.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Redcloak is following the plan because he cares for goblinfolk.
    You are giving him WAY more credit than I would. Maybe you haven't read Start of Darkness; in that it's made fairly clear just how disturbed and hypocritical he is. He's not an anti-villain with a noble mission; he's a wretched, hollow of a (hu)man(oid), and is more likely to intentionally destroy the world than to accidentally save it, because at the end of the day he's just too unbalanced to accept that he won in a way that wasn't according to his wishes. (Anyone who's read Kurt Busiek's excellent "JLA vs. Avengers" graphic novel, I'm totally comparing Redcloak to Krona in terms of what happens when he actually gets his wish.)

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    I personally would be quite happy for Redcloak to get to keep Azure City to be honest because let's face it:
    Yes lets.

    1. The paladins that used to control it were self righteous, morally misguided, manipulative [insert profanity here]s.
    Actually they didn't. They where a secret society dedicated to preventing evil forces from taking over the world.

    They had 1 stupid Paladin. The rest showed themselves to be rather noble and willing to die to save the lives of others.

    You could say they where extremists when it came it their mission. But thats not the argument here.

    In addition most of the people living there where innocent. And the ones who did not escape where put to SLAVERY.

    2. The elves that are trying to take it back are violent, racist (dare I say evil?) [insert profanity here]s as well...
    Yeah. Being untrustworthy of Goblins in a Goblin controlled zone is SO crazy.

    Again: The story is morally interesting where each side can be interpreted in different ways.

    In comparison to these guys, Redcloak looks like a brilliantly moral and noble leader.... At least he will be when he inevitably kills Xykon
    You are making SUCH oversimplifications.

    Hes SUCH a wonderful leader. Killing so many for his own personal revenge scheme. Wanting MITD to eat human BABIES, creating a society of slavery. Risking the fate of EVERY LIVING THING IN THE WORLD.

    Essentially dragging the little of the Goblin name there was left into the dirt.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Redcloak is in the end only an angry teenager. His maturity is not much beyond that of Tsukiko. He is not a brilliant leader. He is smart and seems like a good leader, but below the surface there are a lot of ugly things.

    But without SoD that is impossible to see and even with having read it, it is easy to assume Redcloak had some growth between it and the online comic. But he did not have that, I think.
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  9. Top - End - #99
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    Post Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Being untrustworthy of Goblins in a Goblin controlled zone is SO crazy.
    your sarcasm is correct comrade, it's not crazy. But If Redcloak is evil for the way he hates and treats humans-
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Hes SUCH a wonderful leader. Killing so many for his own personal revenge scheme. Wanting MITD to eat human BABIES, creating a society of slavery.
    then the elves (and even some members of OOTS are just as bad-Belkar is definately evil, and Haley only wants treasure).
    SEE HERE and... well, you've already seen an Elf throw an imprisoned Hobgoblin off a roof, so I don't need to link that again
    Oh wait, that's right.... Redcloak's evil for taking prisoners, and the Elves and paladins kill the prisoners they've already got. Even though they're potentially allies.

    Also, there's a reason Redcloak hates humans: 'his home was destroyed by the Sapphire Guard of Azure City'. And why did they do that? Because they were told it was a good idea by their manipulative, widely hated (by those who really knew him) leader.

    So in fact, you can't drag 'what's left of the goblin name through the dirt', because they're already at the bottom of the pile. They're already a second class species, since they've been at the other end of genocide for generations now.

    So yeah, I don't doubt that Redcloak is now evil, it was always going to be inevitable. But he's now the leader of Goblin kind... And he's making the world a much better place for the people he leads. If that doesn't make you a good leader, then what does?

    And before any Hitler comparisons get brought into this.... Yes, I believe Hitler was a good leader. A terrible, evil, example for the rest of humanity, obviously. But a good leader also. Redcloak is basically Hitler... if Hitler's family was murdered by the polish?
    Yeah I'm going to go with Redcloak is Hitler.
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Actually they didn't. They where a secret society dedicated to preventing evil forces from taking over the world.

    They had 1 stupid Paladin. The rest showed themselves to be rather noble and willing to die to save the lives of others.
    I would call it less than noble how, in attempting to prevent evil forces from taking over the world, they manufactured one half of the evil force which is now by far the closest to actually doing so. The Giant explicitly points out in the commentaries for book 3 that the Azurites essentially caused their own destruction; the hobgoblin invasion is a karmically appropriate outcome to their willingness to slaughter innocent goblins just because they *might* have become a threat. Without goblin genocide, there'd have been no Redcloak (and quite possibly no Red Cloak, possibly not even a Dark One if you go back far enough). Without Redcloak to marshal the hobgoblins, not to mention recruit Xykon who would preoccupy nearly the entire SG so they couldn't aid in the battle, it's unlikely that the hobgoblins could ever have cracked Azure City. Thusly, by giving Redcloak the cause for which he would eventually destroy them, they sealed their own fate. Not so noble, IMO.

    Hes SUCH a wonderful leader. Killing so many for his own personal revenge scheme. Wanting MITD to eat human BABIES, creating a society of slavery. Risking the fate of EVERY LIVING THING IN THE WORLD.

    Essentially dragging the little of the Goblin name there was left into the dirt.
    Yes because an entire nation/species is measurable by the actions of its single most morally heinous individual. Should we just Godwin the thread now and get it over with? (EDIT: Oops, too late.)
    Last edited by willpell; 2012-11-19 at 05:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    To the contrary, Redcloak took the time to explain the tool business to Tsukiko just before killing her. He was perhaps gloating a bit about how he understood undead better than she did, or maybe just doing some exposition for the sake of the audience ... it doesn't matter. What he didn't say to his brother doesn't matter either.


    Non sequitur. Yes, X verbally abuses RC; so what? RC's put up with Tsikiko's humiliations explicitly for the sake of the Plan; why wouldn't he put up with Xykon's? RC's spirit is far from destroyed; he's enduring what he must to meet his goal. He may be evil but he has a very strong spirit.


    What truth? He's explicitly stated (to Tsukiko) that his full intention is to betray Xykon when the time is right. Whether that requires destroying Xykon, or merely playing Whack-A-Phylactery remains to be seen.
    I guess you haven't read Start of Darkness...

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    I would call it less than noble how, in attempting to prevent evil forces from taking over the world, they manufactured one half of the evil force which is now by far the closest to actually doing so.
    Im not saying that those actions that they did before where righteous and noble.

    But those paladins are LONG DEAD (also probably De-paladinafied for breaking conduct. Rememeber, SOD takes place from redcloaks point of view). Do we blame the new generation for the sins of the Fathers?

    And again: I said extremist. They where (Maybe still are) extremists. Think of that as you will.


    Yes because an entire nation/species is measurable by the actions of its single most morally heinous individual. Should we just Godwin the thread now and get it over with? (EDIT: Oops, too late.)
    A Goblin army took over a peaceful City (Again- Nobody knows about the secret raids of the Paladins), enslaved its people, turned the whole thing into bloody mordor, and are allied with a Lich of Demonic evil who has carved his way through the world causing endless pain.

    If your view on Goblins where iffy in your view before, you where scared of them now. And maybe the Goblin village next to yours ALSO harbors such evils! Perhaps its best to raid the town to prevent another evil army uprising!

    Also Grom the Mighty? Im not going to bother talking to you.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    A Goblin army took over a peaceful City (Again- Nobody knows about the secret raids of the Paladins)
    Urm... The goblins who took over their city did....

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Enslaved its people, turned the whole thing into bloody mordor, and are allied with a Lich of Demonic evil who has carved his way through the world causing endless pain.
    I'd rather be enslaved than massacred.
    And they're using Xykon, they're not actually allied with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Also Grom the Mighty? Im not going to bother talking to you.
    Why is it that the ones who start arguments are the first to leave it, feigning maturity?
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Im not going to talk to you because your view of the story is HIGHLY simplistic. Im afraid that this might turn into me lecturing you. And I don't want to lecture.

    Think through the story on your own and you will realize that it is much more complicated then the black and white you portray it as.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Redcloak is in the end only an angry teenager. His maturity is not much beyond that of Tsukiko.
    That maybe shouldn't be a surprise. We know that Redcloak has not physically aged appreciably since he first put on the Crimson Mantle, so him not having mentally aged either is not a stretch.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Im not going to talk to you because your view of the story is HIGHLY simplistic. Im afraid that this might turn into me lecturing you. And I don't want to lecture.

    Think through the story on your own and you will realize that it is much more complicated then the black and white you portray it as.
    I don't know about that, I see things as pretty black and white anyway.

    Xykon=Evil
    Saphire Guard= Good but misguided and manipulated
    Roy=Good
    Belkar= Evil but changing
    Redcloak=Evil, but the best leader the Goblins could hope for (he's not really Hitler btw)

    Also... I thought you weren't talking to me?
    Replying probably counts as talking to me
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Yes I was talking to you. I should have re-phrased myself.

    I did not want to continue talking to you on this subject (On Redcloak) BECAUSE of your very simple view on things.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Yes I was talking to you. I should have re-phrased myself.

    I did not want to continue talking to you on this subject (On Redcloak) BECAUSE of your very simple view on things.
    look if you're going to get angry because of other people's views and ideas, it's probably best not to go on any forums.
    If you don't want to talk to me specifically about my opinions, then just don't quote them.
    If you especially don't want to talk to me about Redcloak, don't quote me on a thread about Redcloak....

    You're being petty for no reason, and I've yet to see any other arguments on this forum. So please, if you're going to get annoyed and derogatory towards other people's views, keep away from the discussion threads.
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Killing prisoners in the middle of a war zone is worse than invading a nation and killing or enslaving everyone in it? Really?

    Face it, (hob)goblins as a whole are an evil race. While that doesn't justify killing their children or invading random villages minding their own business; the resistance was fighting a justified war here. They might not be Xykon levels of evil but they're hardly innocent either.

    They're totally into it. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html

    Whipping slaves, particularly elderly ones, because it's funny. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    And before any Hitler comparisons get brought into this.... Yes, I believe Hitler was a good leader.
    No, he was not. This is somewhat off-topic, but still: he was insane and pushed forward. The entire Third Reich was totally hollow and would have collapsed on its own if it had not gotten smashed in the lost war. What they did was not economically feasible and he led his troups (entire armies) into doom on the eastern front (doing the same in the east that had worked in the west only due to surprise, numbers, and sheer luck).
    Don't even talk about creating a sustainable economy, social structure or an efficient political system (which was horribly inefficient).

    I'm not going to elaborate on a gaming forum where such OT and political discussions are frowned upon, but I am from germany and studied history, so it is a bit likely I have a deeper understanding of that than the common, hollow theory that Hitler was actually a great leader.

    Oh, and Redcloak totally does not compare to him at all. Those are very different types of leader, different motives, different means, different goals, and also very different power (Redcloak has much less freedom to determine his politics).

    Chances are that if you draw the Hitler-card to make any point in a discussion, you are pretty likely wrong so I suggest to do something else instead just at the moment you want to write it.
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    I don't know about that, I see things
    Belkar= Evil but changing
    Not really, or at least not very much. He's still pretty CE, he's just managed to think of one person besides himself that he cares about (enough to kill people for one semi-unselfish reason, along with all his usual completely selfish ones).

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Chances are that if you draw the Hitler-card to make any point in a discussion, you are pretty likely wrong so I suggest to do something else instead just at the moment you want to write it.
    Ok fair enough, the Hitler point isn't very valid, and I don't know that much about him compared to some people, granted.

    At no point have i denied that the goblins are evil, you're right, it's undeniable

    They just seem to be the only race(s) in the whole of OOTS that aren't screwing themselves over as well as everybody else.

    Think about it, all the main villains are against each other and everyone. Except for the goblinoids, they're all united.
    My original point, and the one I want to emphasise, is that I believe the goblins deserve what they've earned. And to prove it, think of it this way...

    A human village is attacked by another civilization and the whole village is massacred/enslaved/sacrificed/persecuted. The Goblins say that this is allowed since all the humans are humans. And this happens to all humans on a regular basis. So after years of the same thing happening, a lone human goes to war with the goblins, possibly raising an army-because, you know, massacre/slavery/sacrifice. Along the way, he tortures or kills some goblins, who would have killed him back if they could.

    That is the plot of Braveheart, the original Conan movies, and countless others.

    All you have to do is switch around the Human/Goblin labels
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    Think about it, all the main villains are against each other and everyone. Except for the goblinoids, they're all united.
    That's actually pretty standard in the lore. In Greyhawk's pantheon, one of Maglubiyet's cronies is actually a Goblin God of Teamwork. Still evil, I think, but devoted to cooperation! There are more places this could be done, but gobs were the perfect candidate for the one where it actually is (along with maybe Kobolds if they trusted anyone other than kobolds; maybe if there was another draconoid race they could pull it off).

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    If you especially don't want to talk to me about Redcloak, don't quote me on a thread about Redcloak....
    Alright. Sorry. Didn't want to offend you.

    On Redcloak: The giant is excellent at pointing out that evil doesn't mean pointlessly cruel or somehow unbrave.

    RedCloak is an EVIL, EVIL Gob. But he is also working for a goal that can be considered honorable.

    The Giant Plays with our expectations not just by playing switcheroo (Evil Humans, Good Goblins) but by making them people first.

    There can be brave, kindhearted evil people. There can be cowardly mean, and cruel good people as well.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-11-19 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Hey, people, listen up! Can we please avoid the whole "moral justification" issue? It tends to attract the wrong kind of attention from the mods, particularly when you start comparisons to real-world people.

    This thread is supposed to focus on what happens if Redcloak succeeds in carrying out his plan (and I was enjoying the light-hearted speculation), not whether he or the paladins do/did act like biggers buttholes to each other.


    For example, now that Hinjo has managed to settle down with the refugees in another place, he might be thinking of restarting a paladin order of some sort, but since they're no longer the Sapphire guard (or at most in name only) they would have to have a new objective or driving philosophy. I wonder how/if this might involved goblins or other mostrous races. For example, does Hinjo learn from the prior experience and try to temper justice with mercy and understanding, or does he do the opposite and think that the real problem was leaving even a single (hob)goblin alive?
    Or, if Redcloak really is succesful in creating a goblin utpoia full of love and peace and puppy dogs, how long before we get the first goblin paladin, out on a mission to spread the Gospel of the Dark One across the land?
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-11-19 at 02:27 PM.
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    Non-core stuff I want to take a crack at rewriting: Healer, Warlock, Ninja, Samurai, Artificer, Soulborn Incarnum, psionics, bloodlines, and the item-crafting system

  26. Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by grom the mighty View Post
    My original point, and the one I want to emphasise, is that I believe the goblins deserve what they've earned.
    Did you read Start of Darkness? It sheds some light on the motives why the Goblins are doing it and who's behind all the killing (of course, this is the goblin perspective).

    Needless to say the humans (and especially the Saphire Guard) is not appearing as shiny as in the online strip.

    This is the nice thing about OotS: The motives of both sides become transparent and this is also the reason many people do root for Redcloak or at least sympathise with his motives.

    The online strip does not really explain anything of that, so SoD, I think, is a requirement to understand what is going on if you want to examine the stuff deeper than just accepting "The goblins are evil" for the scope of this story.
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  27. Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    You know. I did just read SOD. Its different from just reading or hearing the spoilers.

    Once I read it I am now 100% certain that if Redcloak wins, he will impose a evil empire of Goblins onto the world. With slavery, oppression and genocide.

    He will not settle on anything less.

  28. Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Hey, people, listen up! Can we please avoid the whole "moral justification" issue? It tends to attract the wrong kind of attention from the mods, particularly when you start comparisons to real-world people.
    Fair enough, sorry for polluting the thread everybody!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Or, if Redcloak really is succesful in creating a goblin utpoia full of love and peace and puppy dogs, how long before we get the first goblin paladin, out on a mission to spread the Gospel of the Dark One across the land?
    about 100 pages
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Alright. Sorry. Didn't want to offend you.
    No problem comrade!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    RedCloak is an EVIL, EVIL Gob. But he is also working for a goal that can be considered honorable.

    The Giant Plays with our expectations not just by playing switcheroo (Evil Humans, Good Goblins) but by making them people first.

    There can be brave, kindhearted evil people. There can be cowardly mean, and cruel good people as well.
    You have just explained my point much better than me, and I thank you for it
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Did you read Start of Darkness? It sheds some light on the motives why the Goblins are doing it and who's behind all the killing (of course, this is the goblin perspective).

    Needless to say the humans (and especially the Saphire Guard) is not appearing as shiny as in the online strip.

    This is the nice thing about OotS: The motives of both sides become transparent and this is also the reason many people do root for Redcloak or at least sympathise with his motives.

    The online strip does not really explain anything of that, so SoD, I think, is a requirement to understand what is going on if you want to examine the stuff deeper than just accepting "The goblins are evil" for the scope of this story.
    No I haven't read it yet, but I still hope Gobbotopia isn't reclaimed by anyone just from the online comics. I take it you recommend reading it though?
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  29. Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    I DEMAND you read it. It shines insight on Red-Cloak in so many ways!

  30. Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Say Redcloak wins. Then what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    I DEMAND you read it. It shines insight on Red-Cloak in so many ways!
    In that case, I shall comrade!
    'Aside from getting rescued what is it you do?'
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