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2012-10-21, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
What are the minimum requirements you'd need for the Tippyverse phenomenon to come into effect? It seems to be some combination of number and level of spellcasters - a bunch of level 1 spellcasters aren't going to trigger it, obviously, but a handful of level 20's will.
Personally, I run a world where casters are fairly common, but even big cities tend to max out at level 5 or 6 characters. Higher-level stuff typically wants to keep to itself. This seems to work for the most part.Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
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2012-10-21, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Most major cities having ties to an 11th level wizard and anyone with create food and water as a spell or SLA, or an artificer to supply scrolls of the spell/an item to provide a source for it, I think can start up most of it. The mind rape and teleportation circles require a 17th level wizard or the ability to bind something to provide those services.
At least, from what I recall, it's a surprisingly low level that can start off most of it.
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2012-10-21, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- Elsewhen
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Polymorph is a 4th level spell and Teleport is a 5th level spell. Those two spells alone would massively change entire societies towards becoming closer to Tippyverses.
Is there a definitive definition of what a Tippyverse is anywhere?
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2012-10-21, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
I have a campaign that my players are just starting that uses some Tippyverse mechanics
You need Teleportation circles for faster trade and travel, Create food and Water + Prestidigitation traps, Spell trap training facilities that use modify memory to make the CR for the trap effectively the same each time while giving you XP
All in all it is fairly easy to create a Tippyverse. Sustaining it and keeping the players that inhabit it in check is another thing... Personally, I just use the same idea that the Forgotten Realms use ("There is always a bigger fish").Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-10-21, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Probably not anything definitive. It's more an exercise in how magic affects society and how much.
It seems like there's two major breaking points. One is the widespread availability of 4th and 5th level spells (a handful of casters with teleport won't change much, but a few in each city will). Another seems to be when you have a small number of level 15+ casters that want to be involved.Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-10-21, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2012-10-21, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
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2012-10-21, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
My Homebrew: found here.
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2012-10-21, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
The Definitive Guide to the TIppyverse!
Also, all that is needed is routine use of teleporting, with teleport circles being the most permanent.
EDIT:Ninja'dLast edited by The Random NPC; 2012-10-21 at 11:34 PM.
See when a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, you can bet we've bought the vinyl.
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2012-10-21, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Brazil
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2012-10-21, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-10-21, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
well those are all modern tactics. (modern para-trooper esque). I can go on with other Tippyverse things.
The counter-argument is that if these things exist and are similar to modern technologies, then modern tactics would also develop. That, however, is debatable. Magic (in many campaign settings) is only usable by some, understood by few, and usually not widespread.
Another thing is that to keep the status quo the upper-class needs to keep the lower class, well, low.Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2012-10-22, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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- Texas
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2012-10-22, 12:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Yes but any upper class member who can't roll a DC 15+ will save at least 75% of the time isn't going to stay upper class for long.
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2012-10-22, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-10-22, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Here's Emperor Tippy's thread explaining tippyverse.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007
Short answer without teleportation circle it isn't tippyverse. Free Create food and water and other magical services can improve the lives of the common folk but it's teleportation circle that really gets the ball rolling. It basically makes all other forms of transport obsolete and makes wizards fabulously wealthy. Military applications of teleportation circle require cities to become dense enough that protecting them from teleporting armies is feasable. This requires the create food and water traps because farmlands are too vast to be protected. That's a common misconception about tippyverse create food and water traps are a necessary product of tippyverse not the cause.
Shorter answer: Magitech conveniences don't cause tippyverse, their just nice and possibly profitable.
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2012-10-22, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
During the "Excursion Into Extinction" to prevent the enemies from retreating the Netherese effectively surrounded the entire battlefield with gates that teleported the fleeing enemies into a death camp. The Orcs, honestly never stood a chance. Large scale Napoleonic battles would have effectively be acts of genecide in and of itself, the likes of which the battle of Stalingrad would look like a walk through teddy bear junction so please don't try and weaponize magic...
When you make a gun, someone will make a bulletproof vest, and then someone will make armor piecing bullets and so on and so forth. In a magical sense it would be Magic Missile < Shield < Fireball < Fire Immunity and so on and so forth until we all kill ourselves...
I agree, leave the lower class (everyone middle class and under) at Cantrips and even then leave them to strictly core. If a middle class citizen shows potential for higher levels of magic, allow him/her to study greater aptitudes of magic.
Seriously, the Netherese really got the whole Tippyverse thing going real easyLast edited by Arcanist; 2012-10-22 at 01:31 AM.
Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-10-22, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
One thing I don't get about the TV.
Okay, you can stop your enemy from teleporting into your city. But what's to stop him teleporting a few dozen (or hundred) feet outside, stripping down your magical defences from there, then following up with a larger force teleported in once the magic anti-tp defences are down?
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2012-10-22, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-10-22, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
The fact that your golems, troops and casters are already there in position, the point isn't to prevent them from transporting into your city, its to make it pointless to do so by having enough force already in place, hence the small densely populated areas.
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2012-10-22, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Last edited by Ashtagon; 2012-10-22 at 03:50 AM.
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2012-10-22, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
It's assumed that that and wish-teleportation are the only two ways to attack such a city, so secondary layers of defense (both passive to delay and active to defeat the invaders) are introduced to deal with those specifically.
Edit:
Densely-populated, not densely-manned. The rapid-response troops need a small perimeter to defend efficiently; however, it can be assumed that once on the scene they use standard high-op tactics to avoid easy defeats by casters.Last edited by TuggyNE; 2012-10-22 at 03:50 AM.
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-10-22, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-22, 03:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-22, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
The TV assumes that the world is using practical applications for magic. It would be very practical (imo) to have floating statues that orbit the cities that create a network of Greater Anticipated Teleports while creating magnificent and beautiful scenery for it's inhabitants. In these areas of protection are constant patrolling Alchemic Golems (Golems with a Death Throe and all the benefits of being a Golem, including Magic Immunity). The cities buildings are required by law to have a Hardening spell casted upon them upon completion and have a solution applied to it that renders it immune to Acid effects making them hard to destroy by would be invaders and making them immune to the effects of the Alchemic Golem's rupture ability.
Personally, I don't like the use of Wish level magic in the TVLarloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2012-10-22, 04:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Like other people said, the assumption that each city has roughly comparable armies. All your troops (who are easily on hand because it's their home) can rush their incoming force. The only way they can generate any real threat involves sending most of their troops over, which leaves them open to attacks from other cities. Even assuming a successful campaign, they'll take heavy losses which will make them easy pickings for someone else.
That, and the simple fact that two significant geopolical players will likely look at the stick of mutually assured destruction, the carrot of trade with their neighbors, and decide that war simply makes no economic sense. Not that terrorist attacks and proxy wars wouldn't happen. Just that by the time you can afford an army capable of making a successful assault, you're unlikely to want to risk it all on launching a campaign.
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Back to the beginning of the thread, while the TV mostly grew out of teleportation circles, the basic idea of "how would easy access to spell X change the world?" can be applied to much of the PHB. I remember when I got my hands on my first PHB (I won't give away my age by saying just what edition it was), one of the first things my thirteen year old self was flip through the spells and think how cool it would be to have most of them in real life.
Unleash your inner thirteen year old. That should give you an idea how a world that developed with magic would be different from a mundane faux-medieval with magic added afterwards.
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2012-10-22, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Baseline TV doesn't require e.g. resetting wish traps, no. However, it does get to the point where wish is one of the few ways to get past the defenses; whether it's readily available is of course another matter.
Suppose we're using forbiddance as our spell of choice (ignoring for the moment the various flaws it has). It's practical (if tedious) to stack different instances next to each other to cover an entire city plus a margin of say 1000', to ensure even long-range spells need some time after teleporting in before they can be used. Suppose further that this is a low-op city, without e.g. magic-resistant building codes, permanent wards against various blasting spells, or anything like that: just golems and casters manning the defenses.
An invasion force, teleporting in just outside the forbiddance zone, then has to either move somewhat to get to useful targets, or else waste metamagic on enlarging spell range, or some such thing. Meanwhile, the defenders, stationed a short ways inside the boundary, detect them and move out to engage, at which point it's basically just a straight-up fight. Naturally, you have to account for flight, which means it's more of a dome than a circle, but still not out of the question.
An obvious improvement is to get some kind of anticipate teleport barrier up surrounding the forbiddance field, in order to provide a better buffer and make detection a bit more reliable, as well as giving more time to deploy. All kinds of further refinements are possible to reduce the reliance on huge buffer zones, improve golem performance and deployment speed, and reduce maintenance costs. But you don't need all that to figure out the general defense strategy.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-10-22, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Ok, so...other than the whole teleport circle mess, what are the requirements for "magic completely rewrites the rules of society"? Keeping tippyverse just as based on the one spell seems sort of...boring.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!
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2012-10-22, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
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2012-10-22, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?
Well yeah, but I'm not terribly interested in the specific idea (I had no clue it referred to something so specific or I'd have worded the first post differently). I'm interested in where magic starts really messing with the structure of society.
Basically, I'm interested in what level you get the "mages take over and totally revamp everything" hitting.Last edited by WarKitty; 2012-10-22 at 12:37 PM.
Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!