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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    the problem here is when it comes to non-solid matrials, you can grab single grains out of the bag, an infinite number of times in a round.
    I would say that is stretching it. I would argue that it doesn't have those materials until you have a spell that calls for them. Admittedly that just moves the problem, but it's unlikely that there will be a spell that calls for a handful of worthless diamond dust.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddles View Post
    That was poor parsing on my part; regardless, those are things are of irrelevant value. You're just making stuff for mundanes that no one of any real import (ie, rival casters) cares about. Their value quickly approaches zero, as no one wants to trade for them because they can make their own. Those that do want it don't produce very much of anything. If they do produce a lot of something valuable (spell components, materials for crafting), they're probably going to be within a rival's hegemony. Which means trading amber for onyx or whatever.

    Traps of make mundane item is good for solving the day to day stuff, but the expansion and growth of your society runs on things you cannot make traps out of.

    Which means there are pieces of territory you are interested in. Which means you need trade routes. And if teleport is on the table, it means Tippyverse.
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say, would you kindly rephrase that?
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2012-10-22 at 03:44 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Well, from what I gathered everybody in Tippyverse needs to be level 20 tier 1 class munchkined out to the possible maximum, so here is that.
    Last edited by Man on Fire; 2012-10-22 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddles View Post
    Read the fabricate description. Getting a bunch of - value diamond dust just gives you a - value diamond.

    Gratz on the rock.
    except that what should be a pile of 20kg diamond dust has no RAW value until divided in half, or quartered, for the respective Resurrection spells, you then do that and fabricate each pile into a diamond to sell

    most materials do not have a Volume/Weight to Value ratio. the few that i know of are the metals, woods, and crystals used in armor making


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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    There's no way to make spell component pouches make sense in a way that meets all their listed characteristics. Most of us just take it for granted that you can't use them to make infinite money. Easiest way is probably just to assume that the materials they create only last for a few rounds.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Well, from what I gathered everybody in Tippyverse needs to be level 20 tier 1 munchkined out to the possible maximum, so here is that.

    they also need to be selfish and concerned only about their city without giving a damn about people living in the wilds. Every single one of them.
    No, not really.

    All it requires is one caster to look up from the ways of his ancestors, and once where he had prepared lightning bolts and meteor storms, prepare teleports and shapechanges.

    There's an event horizon, and that's where wizards stop being dumbasses and actually use their spells for awesomeness instead of inefficiently making smoking craters.

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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    except that what should be a pile of 20kg diamond dust has no RAW value until divided in half, or quartered, for the respective Resurrection spells, you then do that and fabricate each pile into a diamond to sell

    most materials do not have a Volume/Weight to Value ratio. the few that i know of are the metals, woods, and crystals used in armor making
    A spell components pouch is assumed to be full of stuff with out a value. An infinite number of - is still -. Making a smaller pile out of your infinite - still leaves you with a pile of -. You cannot pull anything out of the bag with a listed value.
    Last edited by Spuddles; 2012-10-22 at 03:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    There's no way to make spell component pouches make sense in a way that meets all their listed characteristics. Most of us just take it for granted that you can't use them to make infinite money. Easiest way is probably just to assume that the materials they create only last for a few rounds.
    probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

    also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

    Wizards have low Wisdom

    Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

    as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities


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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Well, from what I gathered everybody in Tippyverse needs to be level 20 tier 1 class munchkined out to the possible maximum, so here is that.
    Not at all. The tippyverse starts when some 17th level caster realizes that a permanent teleportation circle placed in each of two cities each targeting other city effectively makes those two cities one place. How he comes to this realization is up in the air. A background as a caravaneer's kid, an economically minded buddy, whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

    also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

    Wizards have low Wisdom

    Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

    as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities
    Bunk. The tippyverse doesn't happen for one reason and one reason only. Not everyone wants to play there.

    Sooner or later a caster capable of producing a teleportation circle will be A) uninterested in conquering the multiverse, B) tired of the inconvenience of having shipped goods he wants taking days/weeks/months to get there.

    Logically it should've happened ages ago in most published settings with their thousands of years of history in the rough equivalent of the middle ages.

    The same thing that prevents the tippyverse is what prevents your ridiculous use of spell-component pouches from working; DM fiat.

    Edit: weeeelllllll there are technically a few other hurdles, but they're all in-world, not mechanical.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-22 at 04:38 PM.
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    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

    also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

    Wizards have low Wisdom

    Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

    as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities
    Unfortunately, I'd bet you can do most of it with clerics.

    Someone in the original thread even mentioned fun with tree stride.
    Last edited by WarKitty; 2012-10-22 at 04:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddles View Post
    That was poor parsing on my part; regardless, those are things are of irrelevant value. You're just making stuff for mundanes that no one of any real import (ie, rival casters) cares about. Their value quickly approaches zero, as no one wants to trade for them because they can make their own. Those that do want it don't produce very much of anything. If they do produce a lot of something valuable (spell components, materials for crafting), they're probably going to be within a rival's hegemony. Which means trading amber for onyx or whatever.

    Traps of make mundane item is good for solving the day to day stuff, but the expansion and growth of your society runs on things you cannot make traps out of.

    Which means there are pieces of territory you are interested in. Which means you need trade routes. And if teleport is on the table, it means Tippyverse.
    Meant to address this too.

    Your economy is blown wide open by those other applications of magitech before the teleportation circle comes online. All of those other things get going before 7th level spells are available to the mastermind caster(s).

    This makes the city where it all started ridiculously wealthy before it actually crosses the line and becomes tippyverse. Since its citizenry is pretty much completely taken care of, all of the city's economic factors go entirely into building up more wealth.

    Fortunately, genies and mercanes are both very much interested in gold. That's what gets you started in the planar market. Eventually you work your way up from working in base metals and start trading more exotic stuff. Souls, exceedingly rare gems minded in the elemental plane of earth, seafood and pearls from the elemental plane of water, optional spell-components from the outerplanes, etc. This makes your city even wealthier.

    Then you lay down the TP circle and start uniting the world into one megalopolis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

    Wizards have low Wisdom

    Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

    as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities
    That's an inadequate explanation, because the bolded statement cannot be assumed to be true. Some wizards, certainly, have low Wisdom, especially those made by point buy (), but that isn't necessarily true of NPCs with rolled or array stats. Furthermore, just how much Wisdom do you really need to figure some of this out? 20? 24? 33? I'll give you a hint: people on the Internet have figured this out; that sets a pretty good upper bound on how much they'd need. (Personally, I'd assume a +6 enhancement item would be enough to give them the minor insights they'd need, even without aging bonuses, inherent bonuses, or starting any higher than an 8.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    I sort of figured they wouldn't be the entirety of the town guard. What police force worth it's salt would have everyone with the exact same skills? You stick fighters on places like the main gates where their job is to ensure people stop and put up with searches.
    Zhentarim (Thug) Fighters, certainly.

    Bog-standard Fighters, eh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Side note: you should really choose a class with access to Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive to be a town guard. Fighters are TERRIBLE guards.
    Ranger is a much better representation of the training that a competent force of gendarmes would receive at the basic level, and any gendarmerie is going to have a common basis of their training due to their nature and need to be able to come together to work as a military unit in defense of the city when it comes to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    In general: I think I've been assuming to date that most people have never even heard of spells above 4th or 5th level. Spells like wish exist only in dusty tomes that no one can understand, or in half-forgotten legends of bardic lore.
    From what I understand of the rules, lower level wizards could certainly understand and decipher the spell wish from those dusty tomes, they just would be metaphysically unable to prepare and cast it.

    As for bards and nobility, whenever I want to play a dandy or gentleman of the world, I pick Bard unless he's part of a line given to soldiery or magecraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    probably the best explanation for how they work ever.

    also, the Reason Tippyverse does not happen:

    Wizards have low Wisdom

    Wisdom is the "Common sense Attribute"

    as a result, wizards dont have a clue as to what they should do with their abilities
    Even if your argument wasn't predicated on a false assumption, all it takes is one caster, who isn't even necessarily a wizard, and then even wizards with poor wisdom will see the lucrative nature of it, as there's enough wizards who end up adventuring for us to have a game that there's a basis for wizardly greed if one even wanted to attempt to argue otherwise.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-22 at 06:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Even if your argument wasn't predicated on a false assumption, all it takes is one caster, who isn't even necessarily a wizard, and then even wizards with poor wisdom will see the lucrative nature of it, as there's enough wizards who end up adventuring for us to have a game that there's a basis for wizardly greed if one even wanted to attempt to argue otherwise.
    granted, not all wizards are going to be Reed Richards.

    the most accurate reason a Tippyverse doesnt become standard is this: Wizards who take the role of generals will more often rely on their own spellcasting and a dense packed meatshield in setting then said dense packed meatshield to get the work done, or they become necromantic lords who prefer to sit on their bony asses and rob tombs. They believe themselves to be the most useful member of the army (and rightly so) to the point where they dont really believe that anyone else is relyable. Standard Class Flaws of "Hubris" and "Minor Insanity" dont help

    I could actually see a Conjuration Sorcerer doing better at achieving the Tippy-horizon because they are forced to figure out how, with spells that only shunt people around, they can make most effective use of thier powers and millitary training

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    That's an inadequate explanation, because the bolded statement cannot be assumed to be true. Some wizards, certainly, have low Wisdom, especially those made by point buy (), but that isn't necessarily true of NPCs with rolled or array stats. Furthermore, just how much Wisdom do you really need to figure some of this out? 20? 24? 33? I'll give you a hint: people on the Internet have figured this out; that sets a pretty good upper bound on how much they'd need. (Personally, I'd assume a +6 enhancement item would be enough to give them the minor insights they'd need, even without aging bonuses, inherent bonuses, or starting any higher than an 8.)

    yes, the assumption was on pointbuy.

    Here is the thing about the Tippy-Event Horizon: This is one of those Technological event horizons, which people cant see, and cant see past. IRL the comparison would be Sea Knights and Orbital Drop Pods for troop and supply transport. They dont have those in DnD-tech, so we dont see this Event horizon as an impassible barrier like the people caught in the war of the portals do. This is a problem for us to understand, because we are used to thinking of logistics in a 3-4 dimensional perspective. the people we are talking about are not
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-10-22 at 06:57 PM.


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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    granted, not all wizards are going to be Reed Richards.

    the most accurate reason a Tippyverse doesnt become standard is this: Wizards who take the role of generals will more often rely on their own spellcasting and a dense packed meatshield in setting then said dense packed meatshield to get the work done, or they become necromantic lords who prefer to sit on their bony asses and rob tombs. They believe themselves to be the most useful member of the army (and rightly so) to the point where they dont really believe that anyone else is relyable. Standard Class Flaws of "Hubris" and "Minor Insanity" dont help

    I could actually see a Conjuration Sorcerer doing better at achieving the Tippy-horizon because they are forced to figure out how, with spells that only shunt people around, they can make most effective use of thier powers and millitary training

    Edit:




    yes, the assumption was on pointbuy.

    Here is the thing about the Tippy-Event Horizon: This is one of those Technological event horizons, which people cant see, and cant see past. IRL the comparison would be Sea Knights and Orbital Drop Pods for troop and supply transport. They dont have those in DnD-tech, so we dont see this Event horizon as an impassible barrier like the people caught in the war of the portals do. This is a problem for us to understand, because we are used to thinking of logistics in a 3-4 dimensional perspective. the people we are talking about are not
    More bad assumptions.

    The typical mild neuroses and paranoia are tropes but that doesn't mean they're psychological prerequisites to becoming a wizard. There's no reason to believe that a high-level wizard who never leaves town might not get fed up with the aggravatingly long shipping times of his favorite dried fruit, and just that once hop over to the town where they come from to set up a TP circle to aid them in getting there faster, since he doesn't like to travel. Then they ask him to setup another one on this end to facilitate the trip home, and boom! accidental tippyverse kick-starter.

    As for thinking in three and four dimensions; Know (the planes) says hi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Here is the thing about the Tippy-Event Horizon: This is one of those Technological event horizons, which people cant see, and cant see past. IRL the comparison would be Sea Knights and Orbital Drop Pods for troop and supply transport. They dont have those in DnD-tech, so we dont see this Event horizon as an impassible barrier like the people caught in the war of the portals do. This is a problem for us to understand, because we are used to thinking of logistics in a 3-4 dimensional perspective. the people we are talking about are not
    That's dubious, because the ability that governs tactical ingenuity is not Wisdom, or Charisma, or Dex or Con or Str: it's Int.

    Certainly I wouldn't expect the very first wizard who thought of teleportation circle trade routes to immediately think "I need to set up a 3D forbiddance perimeter around my base, man it with dozens of high-end golems and mid-level casters, and make massive use of divinations and spell traps to improve life and security for all the people who will be living there once trade gets moving." However, I do think that, over a comparatively short time, those various refinements and adjustments would be made; each step is fairly small and logical, and driven by fairly compelling factors.

    Also, I really have to question why high-level wizards would be so thoroughly incapable of thinking in three dimensions. After all, they've been able to fly with good maneuverability since level 5, and they have hundreds if not thousands of years of scholarly research into spells and their uses. Just how complicated is it to imagine a bubble rather than a circle, a shell rather than a wheel?

    TL/DR: The Tippyverse does not develop instantaneously, it develops progressively over decades or even centuries as a result of competition and war.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    As for thinking in three and four dimensions; Know (the planes) says hi.
    Honestly, I've been thinking that lately and been wondering "Perhaps the other planes of existence are simply different dimensional levels where other creatures exist on a higher spectrum of living... Maybe this 'New age' stuff is actually on to something...?"

    It is actually entertaining to think of Demiplanes as just planes that have undergone the Lucifer Experiment and cut themselves off from the Unity that is the Multiverse to create its own reality so adding a 'New Age' style of thinking to a campaign certainly does make a lot of sense if you really think about it... But I'm attributing that to how "flexable" the 3.5 system of gameplay is. Take a Paladin of Tyranny and call him a Lawyer and your good
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    TL/DR: The Tippyverse does not develop instantaneously, it develops progressively over decades or even centuries as a result of competition and war.
    Instantly? No, the actual progression of the tippyverse is more likely backwards. The Military applications would be discovered before the economic in terms of TC.

    Asto Kelb: here are a number of flaws to your argument:

    Wizards fly around because it is fun to them, provides a bit of combat advantage, and lets them bypass terrain (also, screw you walking). They dont typically stick the rest of the party in a bag of holding to dump them inside the castle, they cast mass teleport. This does not lend itself to the idea of Dumping an army through an established rift.

    In fact, the planes where 3 Dimensional travel is mandatory, such as the plane of air and Limbo, dont lend themselves to logical thought.

    As i Said, there is a Technological Singularity/Event Horizon which We, as people Living in an era when military tactics make helicopters used as supply and support vehicles, can see through. this same point is completely Opaque to anyone on the other side. This is not an Assumption, this is an actual, well known Phenomonon of history


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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    The biggest issue I have with the Tippyverse is the inadequate explanation of what the wizards get out of it. Once you have Genesis you don't need to create a new society to make bank; just live on your personal dimension and be a god.

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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Instantly? No, the actual progression of the tippyverse is more likely backwards. The Military applications would be discovered before the economic in terms of TC.

    Asto Kelb: here are a number of flaws to your argument:

    Wizards fly around because it is fun to them, provides a bit of combat advantage, and lets them bypass terrain (also, screw you walking). They dont typically stick the rest of the party in a bag of holding to dump them inside the castle, they cast mass teleport. This does not lend itself to the idea of Dumping an army through an established rift.
    You seem to be contradicting yourself by saying they'd think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle first and then saying that they're too stupid to think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle.

    You also seem to be seriously disparaging the intelligence of someone who has either been a successful wizard adventurer or been a wizardly non-adventurer for even longer.

    The preponderance of forms of transportation began as vehicles of commerce rather than tools of war from everything I've ever read. The only exceptions that I'm aware of are the horse and flight, and even then with the horse what I've read casts some level of doubt on the exact ordering of events.
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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Instantly? No, the actual progression of the tippyverse is more likely backwards. The Military applications would be discovered before the economic in terms of TC.

    Asto Kelb: here are a number of flaws to your argument:

    Wizards fly around because it is fun to them, provides a bit of combat advantage, and lets them bypass terrain (also, screw you walking). They dont typically stick the rest of the party in a bag of holding to dump them inside the castle, they cast mass teleport. This does not lend itself to the idea of Dumping an army through an established rift.

    In fact, the planes where 3 Dimensional travel is mandatory, such as the plane of air and Limbo, dont lend themselves to logical thought.

    As i Said, there is a Technological Singularity/Event Horizon which We, as people Living in an era when military tactics make helicopters used as supply and support vehicles, can see through. this same point is completely Opaque to anyone on the other side. This is not an Assumption, this is an actual, well known Phenomonon of history
    I'm not ignoring that particular phenomenon becaus I'm unaware of it, I'm ignoring it because it doesn't apply in this context. You however are ignoring another historical phenomenon, albeit a much more recent one; science fact is often guided by science fiction. The idea of certain technologies has often preceeded the ability of science to produce those technologies. Example: Jules Verne designed a rocket to fly to the moon almost a century before it was actually done. His design was only different from the actual saturn V rocket in a few fairly trivial ways.

    As for my comment about know (the planes) you completely missed my point, though I suppose I really should've spelled it out a bit better. Wizards are often accustomed to thinking about space in not just the typical three dimensions of the prime, but in the 4+ dimensions that divide up the planes. Thinking about things like aerial supply and reconnaisance would be trivial next to such dimensional scope. Nevermind that you yourself have shown that wizards often do think of the tactical applications of flight and teleportation. The idea that they couldn't fathom applying these magicks to more economic pursuits is absurd in the extreme.

    As for "flight is fun" or "screw walking," those are individual opinions that don't apply equally to all wizards anymore than "lemon meringue is delicious" would apply to all patissiers. They'll know how to make it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they like it, just as many wizards will have learned how to cast fly or teleport even though they may find the experiences of flying or teleportation unpleasant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The biggest issue I have with the Tippyverse is the inadequate explanation of what the wizards get out of it. Once you have Genesis you don't need to create a new society to make bank; just live on your personal dimension and be a god.
    There doesn't need to be much of an explanation, just one wizard thinking I want X to get here faster *casts Teleport Circle*, is needed to kick start the whole thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    You seem to be contradicting yourself by saying they'd think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle first and then saying that they're too stupid to think of dumping an army through a teleportation circle.
    you are misinterpretting what a Technological Singularity is, or im not explaining it well enough:

    First, and Foremost: It cant be done by a Wizard.

    Yes, Int is the skill for intelligence, and governs the knowledge skills.

    Knowledge, has this nasty habit of making people rigid and unadaptable.

    Adversity? That is a monkeywrench a wizard only has do deal with if they barred all good schools. This guy clearly hasnt barred Conjuration, hes just going to teleport to the battlefield and call in something big and disastrous, he is going to go with the most obvious, efficient, and brutal method he chooses, because it works, and the enemies dont have too much they will be able to do in retaliation.

    A sorcerer, in the same position, barred to only to utility spells that do not summon enemies, is going to have to think, he wont be too great at it, but he is going to have to improvise, he will have to figure out what his abysmal spell list can do because he himself is useless.

    More specifically, the only way to bust through that technological Singularity is by Tripping face first through it. Tippy put this as a guy notices in his spellbook that Teleportation Circle is under the list of things he can permanance. i Believe its more along the lines of a full caster has to figure out what the hell he can do, and he realizes that he has:
    A: an army
    B: The ability to scout where he needs that army
    C: the ability to drop that Army where it needs to be
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-10-22 at 10:09 PM.


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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The biggest issue I have with the Tippyverse is the inadequate explanation of what the wizards get out of it. Once you have Genesis you don't need to create a new society to make bank; just live on your personal dimension and be a god.
    It mostly starts off as money. The wizard that puts a start to the whole shebang stands to make more bank than you can shake a stick at, if he makes a few good deals and a few solid contracts. Other wizards see this success and emulate. Then the tippyverse just kind of happens around them before they realize that the even longer-term ramifications actually result in the value of the massive amount of money they're making off of these deals is substantially less than the value it had when he started because of inflation.

    Unfortunately, the wizards that built the tippyverse are probably the most likely people to try and bring it down. Depending on how well they do at either end of that time-period, you may get an age of enlightenment, dark-age, rennaisance cycle, just like the real world did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    There doesn't need to be much of an explanation, just one wizard thinking I want X to get here faster *casts Teleport Circle*, is needed to kick start the whole thing.
    No, that's enough to make a teleportation circle. Tippyverse requires having widespread use of magic in order to make super-dense cities, and the super-dense cities are created to deal with the threat of teleporting armies. No where in there is a real explanation of why casters would be aiding armies in that way appear, or why the wizards are not committing genocide on the none casters, or each create their own feudal society and simply split the worlds.

    It is one way of spinning a world, but it is no more logical than other ways of doing it. The mundane world simply doesn't have enough to offer casters to make a caster based society truly logical. Even humanoid slaves fall apart in front of the ability to planar bind outsiders who are both more obedient and more attractive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    No, that's enough to make a teleportation circle. Tippyverse requires having widespread use of magic in order to make super-dense cities, and the super-dense cities are created to deal with the threat of teleporting armies. No where in there is a real explanation of why casters would be aiding armies in that way appear, or why the wizards are not committing genocide on the none casters, or each create their own feudal society and simply split the worlds.

    It is one way of spinning a world, but it is no more logical than other ways of doing it. The mundane world simply doesn't have enough to offer casters to make a caster based society truly logical. Even humanoid slaves fall apart in front of the ability to planar bind outsiders who are both more obedient and more attractive.
    How about patriotism?

    Some wizards will grow up in very nationalist states depending on the worlds political climate. They'll come up being taught that one of the greatest things you can do in life is to support your city-state/nation/empire in whatever way you can. For a wizard, that way lies with magic.

    It doesn't even necessarily have to be a nationalist state. Just a particularly patriotic parent or aunt/uncle can get the proper mind-set ingrained in a given wizard to be. Heroes; whether personal, political, or religous; can have a profound influence on people.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-22 at 10:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How about patriotism?

    Some wizards will grow up in very nationalist states depending on the worlds political climate. They'll come up being taught that one of the greatest things you can do in life is to support your city-state/nation/empire in whatever way you can. For a wizard, that way lies with magic.

    It doesn't even necessarily have to be a nationalist state. Just a particularly patriotic parent or aunt/uncle can get the proper mind-set ingrained in a given wizard to be.
    Yes, some wizards. And they might come out on top, and they just as easily might not. Other wizards may rip their society apart as easily as they built it, and honestly I find this more likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    No, that's enough to make a teleportation circle. Tippyverse requires having widespread use of magic in order to make super-dense cities, and the super-dense cities are created to deal with the threat of teleporting armies. No where in there is a real explanation of why casters would be aiding armies in that way appear, or why the wizards are not committing genocide on the none casters, or each create their own feudal society and simply split the worlds.

    It is one way of spinning a world, but it is no more logical than other ways of doing it. The mundane world simply doesn't have enough to offer casters to make a caster based society truly logical. Even humanoid slaves fall apart in front of the ability to planar bind outsiders who are both more obedient and more attractive.
    A desire to help one's fellow man? I'm not quite sure what you are saying though. If it's that casters wouldn't always create Magocratic cities, then yeah of course. You could have any wizard smart enough to figure out the Tippyverse retreat to their personal plane/paradise to eventually become gods. The Tippyverse isn't the only logical state of existence, but it is one.
    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yes, some wizards. And they might come out on top, and they just as easily might not. Other wizards may rip their society apart as easily as they built it, and honestly I find this more likely.
    Why would they care? You can't have it both ways, either they care enough to help their fellow man or they don't.
    Last edited by The Random NPC; 2012-10-22 at 10:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    you are misinterpretting what a Technological Singularity is, or im not explaining it well enough:
    You're not explaining it at all in this post and haven't in any of your other posts, for starters.

    Then there's the bit where I reject the idea that it's something beyond the intellectual capabilities of a creature more intelligent than any person currently alive when you've provided nothing in the way of a compelling argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    First, and Foremost: It cant be done by a Wizard.

    Yes, Int is the skill for intelligence, and governs the knowledge skills.

    Knowledge, has this nasty habit of making people rigid and unadaptable.

    Knowing what a teleportation circle does, knowing that they can permanently put it into place, and knowing that transportation of goods is something that's tricky because of all of the monsters he's made good money off of to finance his rise to power definitely makes him rigid and unable to see a patently obvious application of his capabilities.


    Right. If the pursuit of knowledge meeting any kind of success led to stagnation then our scientific advance would have dead-ended by now.

    Further, you've not actually bothered to show how it *can't* be done by a wizard, you've just continually asserted it when you haven't outright contradicted yourself by going on about how wizards always have armies and want to take things over with said armies and that's the first step on the road to the tippyverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Heroes; whether personal, political, or religous; can have a profound influence on people.
    And being a hero can sometimes lead to a bit of an attachment to those one protects.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-22 at 10:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    A desire to help one's fellow man? I'm not quite sure what you are saying though.

    If it's that casters wouldn't always create Magocratic cities, then yeah of course. You could have any wizard smart enough to figure out the Tippyverse retreat to their personal plane/paradise to eventually become gods. The Tippyverse isn't the only logical state of existence, but it is one.

    Why would they care? You can't have it both ways, either they care enough to help their fellow man or they don't.
    Yeah, good luck with that

    Exactly. It is one way that you could apply logic to a D&D society, but it is not an inherently superior one.

    Actually, I can. Casters are not some homogeneous mass, and if some some of them want to make the world better, some of them are going to want to watch it burn. In neither case do they benefit from the action in a monetary way (because they can make anything they can be paid in), but for the personal pleasure of hurting or helping people they can do whatever they want.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2012-10-22 at 10:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Minimum requirements for Tippyverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yeah, good luck with that

    Exactly. It is one way that you could apply logic to a D&D society, but it is not an inherently superior one.
    Be that as may be, as far as the consequences of magic for society, it sure beats the pants off of settings that don't consider the role of magic and tack it on as an after thought.

    Which is a point that always seems to get lost in the hustle and bustle of the threads.
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