Final fight scene in daredevil

[Traab]

Am I the only one who thought the setup for it was pretty damn cool? I mean, you have wilson fisk, the kingpin. The lord of the underworld, and yet he was aware enough of how the rules in hells kitchen work, that he knew daredevil would be coming for him, and was ready to face him man to man. It was like a matter of honor, a duel, and not even the kingpin was willing to violate the man code, or whatever you want to call it, and include his guards or something. He basically sent his men away, got up, took off his jacket, and got ready to rumble. Very cool.

And a definite departure from the standard superhero movie final fight scenes where the hero has to wade hip deep in flunkies and mooks and battle the head mook before managing to reach the big boss and force the showdown. If it had been a standard movie, daredevil would have had to beat his way through the building, taking out random guards left and right, then in the foyer outside fisks office, bullseye steps out and they have their big showdown, and only THEN would he get to kick the door down and fight fisk.

[MLai]

(1) Wait, you're praising that movie?
(2) Not a very realistic portrayal of mob bosses though. You don't climb that high by pulling the trigger yourself. It's not expected of you (as a mob boss) and in fact it's probably gauche to do so.
(3) The best fight scene in that movie was in the nightclub when Daredevil was taking on ONLY mooks.

[Traab]

(1) Wait, you're praising that movie?
(2) Not a very realistic portrayal of mob bosses though. You don't climb that high by pulling the trigger yourself. It's not expected of you (as a mob boss) and in fact it's probably gauche to do so.
(3) The best fight scene in that movie was in the nightclub when Daredevil was taking on ONLY mooks.

1) Meh, I dont dislike it as much as some do. I wouldnt rave over it by any means though.

2) I know it isnt realistic. Its also not realistic to have a blind lawyer with sonar kicking your ass in a fight while wearing red leather. For the record though, had fisk won that fight, it would have gotten him huge badass points. It would have established him as a threat on a personal level, not just as some fat tub of lard sitting behind a desk handing out orders. This is a guy that can and will take you behind the woodshed and beat you till you stop hollering.

3) The fight itself wasnt what I liked, it was the setup. I just liked the way that went. He knew it was coming, he was ready for it, he was looking forward to it, and he intended to face it like a man, not hide behind his goons.

[industrious]

Daredevil, honestly, had the makings of a great film.

The problem was the casting was wrong, and the fight choreography was way too over the top to be taken seriously. Something more subdued, and with a better Matt/Electra, we would have had an amazing movie.

[KillingAScarab]

I have gone back and forth on the end of the film. For one thing, there is quite a bit which just... happens... and I was less willing to suspend disbelief. Elektra, Bullseye and Daredevil all just happen to find each other. On the rooftops. Of one of the world's largest cities? "Bullseye failed." So now Daredevil knows exactly where Kingpin is... how? Well, it's not like he could get past a legion of guards after everything Bullseye did to him... so send the guards home. Actually, how did he ever fight that well in the church in the first place against an uninjured Bullseye?

I do like the film. In what other medium is Kevin Smith going to get a cameo in a morgue? In what other medium can I see Frank Miller as, "man with pen in head?" I hadn't read a Daredevil comic, but I liked the character, though after seeing the director's cut I wish they had kept more of his life as a lawyer in. I even liked the see-saw choreography.

I can understand that Kingpin isn't just a big guy, he has super-strength and (in the movie) used it throughout his career to kill people, so it makes a little more sense for him to fight Daredevil himself. But it was fridge logic for him to jeapordize his rule from the shadows, in my opinion. I think in the 1990s Spider-Man animated series, he may have even allowed people to know who he was and be content that they couldn't prove anything.

Still, Michael Clarke Duncan did a pretty good job. Too bad the last film I remember him appearing in was The Legend of Chun-Li. Why, Street Fighter, why must you keep killing actors?

[Devonix]

I have gone back and forth on the end of the film. For one thing, there is quite a bit which just... happens... and I was less willing to suspend disbelief. Elektra, Bullseye and Daredevil all just happen to find each other. On the rooftops. Of one of the world's largest cities? "Bullseye failed." So now Daredevil knows exactly where Kingpin is... how? Well, it's not like he could get past a legion of guards after everything Bullseye did to him... so send the guards home. Actually, how did he ever fight that well in the church in the first place against an uninjured Bullseye?

I do like the film. In what other medium is Kevin Smith going to get a cameo in a morgue? In what other medium can I see Frank Miller as, "man with pen in head?" I hadn't read a Daredevil comic, but I liked the character, though after seeing the director's cut I wish they had kept more of his life as a lawyer in. I even liked the see-saw choreography.

I can understand that Kingpin isn't just a big guy, he has super-strength and (in the movie) used it throughout his career to kill people, so it makes a little more sense for him to fight Daredevil himself. But it was fridge logic for him to jeapordize his rule from the shadows, in my opinion. I think in the 1990s Spider-Man animated series, he may have even allowed people to know who he was and be content that they couldn't prove anything.

Still, Michael Clarke Duncan did a pretty good job. Too bad the last film I remember him appearing in was The Legend of Chun-Li. Why, Street Fighter, why must you keep killing actors?

Ummm. Kingpin IS really just a big guy. He doesn't have any super powers. Just trains his mind and body to be the best.

[KillingAScarab]

Ummm. Kingpin IS really just a big guy. He doesn't have any super powers. Just trains his mind and body to be the best.

Really? I could have sworn I heard some DVD commentary somewhere (most likely Spiderman related) in which Stan Lee claimed Kingpin wasn't fat, it was all muscle. Which implies super-strength, since it's ridiculous to think muscles on your stomach will help you punch. Also, the guy has somehow beaten Spiderman in a fight; I don't want this to turn into a "X can beat Y" argument, but you have to be more than "quick" to beat someone with precognitive reflexes, right?

[Tiki Snakes]

Really? I could have sworn I heard some DVD commentary somewhere (most likely Spiderman related) in which Stan Lee claimed Kingpin wasn't fat, it was all muscle. Which implies super-strength, since it's ridiculous to think muscles on your stomach will help you punch. Also, the guy has somehow beaten Spiderman in a fight; I don't want this to turn into a "X can beat Y" argument, but you have to be more than "quick" to beat someone with precognitive reflexes, right?

As far as I understand it, Kingpin is bordering on inhumanly strong, yes. I'm not sure if they ever came out and declared him a mutant, but that's the obvious explanation really.

[Devonix]

Really? I could have sworn I heard some DVD commentary somewhere (most likely Spiderman related) in which Stan Lee claimed Kingpin wasn't fat, it was all muscle. Which implies super-strength, since it's ridiculous to think muscles on your stomach will help you punch. Also, the guy has somehow beaten Spiderman in a fight; I don't want this to turn into a "X can beat Y" argument, but you have to be more than "quick" to beat someone with precognitive reflexes, right?

yeah it's all muscle but it's all normal human muscle. Kingpin's a Sumo wrestler and knows some other forms of combat too. I don't recall him outfighting spiderman outside of the cartoon which was always a bit wonky. And while Spidey is Superstrong and durable he can still get hurt by non super punches for some reason.

[KillingAScarab]

As far as I understand it, Kingpin is bordering on inhumanly strong, yes. I'm not sure if they ever came out and declared him a mutant, but that's the obvious explanation really.

I hear Namor joined the X-Men for awhile, so I wouldn't be surprised if some writer somewhere down the road plays that card to give the Kingpin an ally he needs.

yeah it's all muscle but it's all normal human muscle. Kingpin's a Sumo wrestler and knows some other forms of combat too. I don't recall him outfighting spiderman outside of the cartoon which was always a bit wonky. And while Spidey is Superstrong and durable he can still get hurt by non super punches for some reason.

A good point about the normal punches. I just meant he had to connect with them, assuming that's how Spiderman lost (I don't know what happened in the comics). Maybe it was something tactical. Kingpin's tactics weren't quite on display in the Daredevil movie's ending, though.

[Devonix]

I hear Namor joined the X-Men for awhile, so I wouldn't be surprised if some writer somewhere down the road plays that card to give the Kingpin an ally he needs.

Namor's been in the Xmen for a few years now. He's a mutant and a while back they finally started dealing with that little detail in Marvel.

Namor's been a mutant since at least the 70s so it wasn't a new revelation or anything it was something just about everyone in universe knew but just never cared much about.

[KillingAScarab]

Namor's been in the Xmen for a few years now. He's a mutant and a while back they finally started dealing with that little detail in Marvel.

I haven't kept up with X-Men comics for years, now. Haven't had the income to spare on it. Last time I wanted to pick one up, it was around Messiah whatever, and I didn't like what I read about its premise. Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 is the way to do a Bishop/Cable conflict in my mind.

[comicshorse]

yeah it's all muscle but it's all normal human muscle. Kingpin's a Sumo wrestler and knows some other forms of combat too. I don't recall him outfighting spiderman outside of the cartoon which was always a bit wonky. And while Spidey is Superstrong and durable he can still get hurt by non super punches for some reason.

The Kingpin is amazingly strong but I think its just peak human rather than actual super strength. And he's trained as well, as in regularly fights multiple martial arts masters as a way to practice.

[Friv]

Really? I could have sworn I heard some DVD commentary somewhere (most likely Spiderman related) in which Stan Lee claimed Kingpin wasn't fat, it was all muscle. Which implies super-strength, since it's ridiculous to think muscles on your stomach will help you punch. Also, the guy has somehow beaten Spiderman in a fight; I don't want this to turn into a "X can beat Y" argument, but you have to be more than "quick" to beat someone with precognitive reflexes, right?

Stan Lee has said that, yes.

But Kingpin is only a superhuman in much the same way that Black Widow or Batman are superhumans; he's following pulp human rules instead of real human rules.

[Traab]

Watch some worlds strongest men competitions. You will see one thing they generally have in common. Way less muscle tone, huge beefy bodies, and they can pull boeing jets with their bare hands. That is basically what wilson fisk is. They dont have six pack abs, they have kegs. They dont have rippling pectorals, they have muscular man boobies. Im pretty sure any of the finalists in last years world strongest men competitions could have walked up to arnold in his prime, and folded him in half backwards.

[Dienekes]

Traab has the right of things, except that Arnold was actually a rather decent weightlifter in his prime. The general rule of thumb I've been told is: if they look like the Blob it's probably mostly natural (probably and mostly being important words). If they look like a Liebfeld figure it's probably all steroids.

Anyway, as to the point of the thread. I always thought that Kingpin was dumb for sending his troops away.

[Traab]

Tactically it was a dumb move, if killing daredevil is your primary goal. It struck me as some sort of schoolyard honor type of thing. Basically, if some kid is gunning for you, you dont arrange to have all your friends jump him before you arrive to fight, you man up and face him yourself. If you dont, people look at you as a coward and you lose some serious respect around the yard. I was trying to find a youtube clip of fisk explaining exactly why he is going to fight daredevil alone. I know it had something to do with how things are settled in hell's kitchen, but I cant find the exact scene.

*EDIT* More evidence for fisk's strength being not supernatural. Arent the vast majority of olympic weight lifters also huge men without massively pronounced muscles?

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[DiscipleofBob]

I liked the movie, and never did see why it gets so much hate.

I enjoyed the characters, the interactions, and I felt the plot hit all the notes it needed to for the characters. It's a movie that could have been sprawled out into a trilogy, but it didn't need to be.

Sure, critical analysis will turn up some plot holes, but the same is true for the Nolan Batman films and they get lots of praise.

The Elektra movie was pretty awful though.

[Dienekes]

Tactically it was a dumb move, if killing daredevil is your primary goal. It struck me as some sort of schoolyard honor type of thing. Basically, if some kid is gunning for you, you dont arrange to have all your friends jump him before you arrive to fight, you man up and face him yourself. If you dont, people look at you as a coward and you lose some serious respect around the yard. I was trying to find a youtube clip of fisk explaining exactly why he is going to fight daredevil alone. I know it had something to do with how things are settled in hell's kitchen, but I cant find the exact scene.

I remember the scene, but the difference is that this isn't a schoolyard. Fisk isn't some bully in a playground, he's the head of one of the most powerful criminal empires in America. He's basically Al Capone on crack. Sure he's not afraid to get his hands dirty from time to time, but it's silly to risk your entire empire because the guy who's dismantling your business was also born in the same part of New York as you.

But then I've always been a bit of a combat pragmatist even during my young schoolyard fighting days.

I liked the movie, and never did see why it gets so much hate.

I enjoyed the characters, the interactions, and I felt the plot hit all the notes it needed to for the characters. It's a movie that could have been sprawled out into a trilogy, but it didn't need to be.

Sure, critical analysis will turn up some plot holes, but the same is true for the Nolan Batman films and they get lots of praise.

The Elektra movie was pretty awful though.

I can't put my finger on exactly why I disliked it, but I think I just didn't care for the characters all that much. Murdock was kinda boring, didn't care about Electra, and of the villains the criminal genius Fisk made some obviously dumb moves. Bullseye I remember being ok though. Though keep in mind my young self was someone who would chuckle at the scene where he kills a kindly grandma with a peanut, so he's not to be trusted in terms of taste.

Actually I still find that scene rather amusing. So in general don't trust me at all in matters of taste.

[Friv]

I remember the scene, but the difference is that this isn't a schoolyard. Fisk isn't some bully in a playground, he's the head of one of the most powerful criminal empires in America. He's basically Al Capone on crack. Sure he's not afraid to get his hands dirty from time to time, but it's silly to risk your entire empire because the guy who's dismantling your business was also born in the same part of New York as you.

But then I've always been a bit of a combat pragmatist even during my young schoolyard fighting days.

IIRC, the idea is that Kingpin built a lot of his empire on the back of his physical presence and power, while using his exceptional cunning to catch people off-guard when they dismissed him as just a bruiser. Once Daredevil was doing a certain amount of damage, he had to deal with the problem personally or else his reputation would crumble and the whole thing would start to fall apart.

Besides, we all know that sending waves of mooks at people just lets them gain more experience points.

[paddyfool]

To quote the Marvel wiki:

Wilson Fisk is a criminal mastermind who is involved in extensive illegal activities such as drug running, smuggling, murder, and so forth. Despite this, he has no criminal record and an army of lawyers to keep it that way, and is a criminal financial strategist without parallel. Fisk has no superhuman powers, but the majority of his 400-plus pound bulk is solid muscle.

More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Kingpin#ixzz2FzSN3NhS

I think the parallel with World's Strongest Man competitors is a good one. Coupled with a tendency (in some media) not to show off the strength until he has to, but to cover it up with a smart suit that leads people to make false assumptions about all that bulk...