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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    I can't believe it but this whole thing reminds me of.....a High school musical song.

    Yes I hand in all my mancards, but listen to what song Im indicating.

    I just can imagine it like something:

    "I want to stop killing people, and find redemption"

    No, no, no, nooooooooooo
    No, no, no
    Stick to the status quo

    Or

    "I finally found the love of my life and I want to settle down, leave the crime fighting to some of the newer heroes"

    No, no, no, nooooooooooo
    No, no, no
    Stick to the status quo


    My problem with the Loius Superman breakup is that....I liked the relationship. It built up after the years and was very touching.

    Destroying it just continues to point how nothing in comics matters. Nothing can ever be achieved.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Destroying it just continues to point how nothing in comics matters. Nothing can ever be achieved.
    I'm sorry? You spend the majority of your post railing against the "status quo is everything" perspective, and then you say something like that?

    Keeping a long running relationship just to prove there is continuity and things last, is being a slave to the status quo. Not all character growth is to make a character a more positive force.

    EDIT: "Why won't they change things? Why won't they change things? WHY HAVE THEY CHANGED THINGS?!"
    Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-11-08 at 03:09 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Destroying it just continues to point how nothing in comics matters. Nothing can ever be achieved.
    Honestly, this is more a problem that DC has in particular now, and has had since the last time editorial got a new wave of members.

    I mean, remember where we were this time ten years ago? The comic universe was a bit damaged from the death and return of superman, and from Batman coming back from his injuries by Bane, but other than that things felt more or less alive and dynamic. Our "new" green lantern had matured and developed and settled in, proving himself to be Jordans equal and with hints towards a new corps back and better than ever. Green Arrow had reverted SLIGHTLY, but still kept it's legacy characters strong and had just introduced a new character to take over the "damaged youth" slot once Roy managed to mostly work out his problems. Stephanie Brown was the screw up who inched along and managed to mostly help, Tim Drake was cementing his title of "best Robin EVER", and Jason Todd being alive is something that was being hinted at and hadn't grown into a stale joke.

    Then DiDio and Johns and the rest come in. Team Arrow got a personality reset and half it's roster pruned back. Batman and Superman's lowest moments may as well never have happened. Stephanie Brown becomes the poster child for editorial screwing over a character for no real reason. Hal Jordan comes back and the storyline that'd been built with care for over three decades gets smashed to pieces. Tim Drake gets a bit of good stuff but as far as DC cares he is under no circumstances equal to Greyson or Todd in terms of how cool he is or how tough he is. This doesn't even TOUCH the New 52 and what it's done.

    A connected world that goes on for decades can work, has worked, and at some point in the future will work again I don't doubt. It's just that right now, a company that controls a third of the entire industry is dead set on freezing everything the way it was in 1987 or so and doesn't care what happens or who gets burned doing it. Marvel uses cheap boosting tactics like temporary death and overblown events but these tend to at least change things long enough to feel like they have a weight to them.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Its like one more day.

    Peter changed, and his history changed.

    But they couldn't let him retire with mary jane. NOOOOOOO

    Lets knock him back to "Lives with aunt" even bring his friend back even when it doesn't make any sense.

    This is similar.

    Superman has EVOLVED as a character. Now its not as much knocked back to the status quo as remixed to be DAAAAAAARK!

    It IS the new 90s. Except with less shoulderpads.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Its like one more day.

    Peter changed, and his history changed.

    But they couldn't let him retire with mary jane. NOOOOOOO

    Lets knock him back to "Lives with aunt" even bring his friend back even when it doesn't make any sense.

    This is similar.

    Superman has EVOLVED as a character. Now its not as much knocked back to the status quo as remixed to be DAAAAAAARK!

    It IS the new 90s. Except with less shoulderpads.
    Honestly, I'd say since then Marvel has gotten really good at this, even if they have a whole lot of other flaws I could mention. OMD may have been bad, and civil war got a bunch of retconning, but they managed to keep a lot of stuff in continuity and won't go back on it anymore without at least trying to make it look natural. The X-Men are STILL dealing with crap from almost a decade ago. The current Hulk run may have reverted Hulk a bit, but everyone else still remembers what happened and references it as recently as last month. Avengers Academy made sure that even minor stuff like Sentinel and Runaways managed to keep up, even if Arena is messing with that in a very uncool way. Just this week Spider-Man has to deal with crap that happened a bit ago in Heroes for Hire and I don't really need to read the story to get what's going on. The Marvel universe, may not work well, but it currently works. It's connected, dynamic, functioning, and if you allow a small amount of timeline shennanigans to explain how Peter can be in the Savage Land AND fighting Hobgoblin at the same time, or how Wolverine gets to be on so many teams, you can make a vague amount of sense of it without having to clump it into little clusters like DC wants you to.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Honestly, I'd say since then Marvel has gotten really good at this, even if they have a whole lot of other flaws I could mention. OMD may have been bad, and civil war got a bunch of retconning, but they managed to keep a lot of stuff in continuity and won't go back on it anymore without at least trying to make it look natural. The X-Men are STILL dealing with crap from almost a decade ago. The current Hulk run may have reverted Hulk a bit, but everyone else still remembers what happened and references it as recently as last month. Avengers Academy made sure that even minor stuff like Sentinel and Runaways managed to keep up, even if Arena is messing with that in a very uncool way. Just this week Spider-Man has to deal with crap that happened a bit ago in Heroes for Hire and I don't really need to read the story to get what's going on. The Marvel universe, may not work well, but it currently works. It's connected, dynamic, functioning, and if you allow a small amount of timeline shennanigans to explain how Peter can be in the Savage Land AND fighting Hobgoblin at the same time, or how Wolverine gets to be on so many teams, you can make a vague amount of sense of it without having to clump it into little clusters like DC wants you to.
    This, so much this.
    Marvel also has some kickass books ongoing - Future Foundation, Amazing Spider-Man, Daredevil and Avengers Academy are all pretty good.
    Marvel Now will relaunch all of them, but I'm not sure how well it will go. Between losing Peter David's X Factor and Miguel O'Hara as Spider-Man... I'm skeptical.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    This, so much this.
    Marvel also has some kickass books ongoing - Future Foundation, Amazing Spider-Man, Daredevil and Avengers Academy are all pretty good.
    Marvel Now will relaunch all of them, but I'm not sure how well it will go. Between losing Peter David's X Factor and Miguel O'Hara as Spider-Man... I'm skeptical.
    For me, the liklihood is that the relaunch will kill the last gasp of my interest as thoroughly as DC's reboot killed my interest in their comics (granted, I didn't get many DC titles in the first place, but even so.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    For me, the liklihood is that the relaunch will kill the last gasp of my interest as thoroughly as DC's reboot killed my interest in their comics (granted, I didn't get many DC titles in the first place, but even so.)
    Well, I was really bothered by the DC reboot. I still am. Teen Titans finally had a good run (for the first time in years) and they just... cancelled it. Lobdell then managed to ruin everything good about the Titans, Superboy and Starfire. I did read a few issues of Red Hood and the Outlaws, though, and once you get past Starfire (and Lobdell starts dropping hints that she is still herself, deep down), it's quite fun.
    Brian Azzarelo's Wonder Woman is freaking amazing. I stopped reading when they changed artists, though.
    I hate everything Geoff Johns ever wrote - except for the first few Aquaman issues. Very very cool. Then Johns gets lost and can't keep up.
    Justice League Dark sucks and JLA just might be the worst comic I have ever read.
    So - some good stuff, some bad stuff, as it has always been. I specially dislike how they ruined some of my favourite characters (Wally, Bart, Tim, Kon-El, Cassie, Barbara they even messed with Nightwing's uniform, for crying out loud) but they did improve on some other guys I liked (Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Jason Todd -- and N52's Roy Harper is a step up from Rise of Arsenal's Roy Harper. Then again, anything is a step up from RoA.)
    Since Marvel is just relaunching stuff, not actually rebooting, I have more hopes for that. Cancelling Avengers Academy sucked hard and I will miss the current Daredevil series and Future Foundation... but they seem to know what they are doing, in a way. I hated Avengers versus X-men, but seeing Sunspot as an Avenger is cool enough to keep me reading. Also, freaking Miguel O'Hara.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Well, I was really bothered by the DC reboot. I still am. Teen Titans finally had a good run (for the first time in years) and they just... cancelled it. Lobdell then managed to ruin everything good about the Titans, Superboy and Starfire.
    Teen Titans was what I was reading at the time. Then they did the reboot, and I looked at the upcoming characters and said "actually, I don't like any of those to start with, and oh dear frag what have they done to Starfire, okay, bugger that for a game of soldiers, I'mma voting with wallet."

    Which is more-or-less my problem with Marvel Now - I'm looking at the teams and going "nope, don't like any of them, you've just basically character-assassinated Cyclops who was at the only point I've ever liked him and you're bringing Jean back and you've screwed Jubilee up and marched her offinto lombo again (presumably to try to use her as a selling tool again, because that's all she is to you now, Marvel), so frag that." I'm literally giving the remaining two (out of FIVE) titles I'm reading about two issues to be good, and then I'll just cut my losses.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-11-09 at 10:41 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Presently, here's what I can read and not have an all but uncontrollable urge to attack the writers and editors with in rolled up issue format ala Jason Born in the second movie.


    DC

    Aquaman
    Supergirl (Honestly, form what I've scene here, I have an utterly insane against all odds hope that in a few years, she's gonna get older, and decide to put a bit of distance between herself and her cousin's legacy on earth and "become" Powergirl, and me mostly like the one form the pre-reboot solo series.)
    Wonder Woman.
    Batman (Solo Title. The one where all his team mates don't do very much or show up too often.)
    Nightwing (Much as I loved Tim Drake and wish they had kept him more or less as was.)
    Superman (It's slowly but steadily growing on me. Still not as good as it once was.)
    Animal Man.


    Marvel

    Thor
    Deadpool.



    This should tell you something about how I feel about marvel. And yes, it did really start with Civil War for them, cause before that, I had no interest in DC's offerings, and was a loyal fan.

    Though there's a chance I'm gonna have to start seriously looking for an independent/third company published Super hero universe to read about if they don't start tightening up at both company's.


    Edit: Almost forgot. Batgirl. Though a big part of that is that I'm hoping that that's were will see Stephanie Brown or Cassie Cain show back up, or that eventually, she'll find some way to become as relevant as she was to the pre-reboot universe as Oracle again. Maybe by ditching the tights and actually getting her dad to let her be a Cop and then in her off time dusting off the Oracle ID, since we know pre-reboot she did maintain that Identity and a day job, if a different one. That way she get's some in the field action and still get's to be heavily linked into everything.
    Last edited by Metahuman1; 2012-11-09 at 03:06 PM.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Though there's a chance I'm gonna have to start seriously looking for an independent/third company published Super hero universe to read about if they don't start tightening up at both company's.
    Kirkman's Invincible is quite badass.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    It does concern me that the people who will be taking over the comic industry soon, are those who stuck around through the 90's.

    I have a friend from college (we're both 25 now) that I mentioned exactly these issues to and do you know what his was? "But capes aren't supposed to be happy." I'm not kidding, there are a lot of people out there that genuinely think writing a happy story or a story with a happy ending is bad/childish writing.

    Also, Invincible is pretty dang good. It manages to not be depressing most of the time.
    Tarvek needs to die in a fire.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    "But capes aren't supposed to be happy." I'm not kidding, there are a lot of people out there that genuinely think writing a happy story or a story with a happy ending is bad/childish writing.
    I guess it's soon time to stop reading comics again, for about 8 years.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    It does concern me that the people who will be taking over the comic industry soon, are those who stuck around through the 90's.

    I have a friend from college (we're both 25 now) that I mentioned exactly these issues to and do you know what his was? "But capes aren't supposed to be happy." I'm not kidding, there are a lot of people out there that genuinely think writing a happy story or a story with a happy ending is bad/childish writing.

    Also, Invincible is pretty dang good. It manages to not be depressing most of the time.
    Hey, the 90's have some happy comics too. Like Impulse. And Young Justice started in the 90's. And....give me a minute...Part of Justice League international was during the 90's...

    But yea, that friend is worrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kirkman's Invincible is quite badass.
    That it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I guess it's soon time to stop reading comics again, for about 8 years.
    or pick up indies.
    Last edited by turkishproverb; 2012-11-11 at 11:51 PM.
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    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Just to shine some light in the darkness: at least Neil Gaiman is bringing back Sandman next year.
    "It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players..."

    --Gygax

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    or pick up indies.
    I know... It's just that I am a shallow guy who prefer my mainstream superhero comics. And of course the Franco-Belgian classics (Astrerix, Lucky Luke etc)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    It does concern me that the people who will be taking over the comic industry soon, are those who stuck around through the 90's.

    I have a friend from college (we're both 25 now) that I mentioned exactly these issues to and do you know what his was? "But capes aren't supposed to be happy." I'm not kidding, there are a lot of people out there that genuinely think writing a happy story or a story with a happy ending is bad/childish writing.

    Also, Invincible is pretty dang good. It manages to not be depressing most of the time.
    Yes, this is a very prevenlant Attitude among a lot of "Cultured" people (and I use the term loosely.) that has been picked up a lot by the hipster and academic community's. The hero is suppose to fail horribly, die trying, or achieve the goal at far greater cost then it was worth, or ultimately, at a complete sacrifice of himself. And that anything else is unacceptable, childish, lazy, "Mainstream" (Hipsters.) or giving up on true "Art" (Again, term loosely used.) to appeal to the masses as a means of "Selling out."

    And Teen Titans had some happy stuff in the 90's. There was of course Teen Angst, but it was still there. Superman could still end on a happy note with his story arch's most of the time. X-men still gave you actual hope for the characters, as did the Avengers, and even spider-man when Todd Macfarlane wasn't running it.

    And I'm not totally against dark characters. There's a place and time for things like Spawn, Punisher, Hell Boy, Batman (Pre-reboot.), Daredevil (Pre-civil War, particularly when he beat fisk into a coma and announced himself the new king of hells kitchen with the rule that you either cleaned up or got out. That BTW, is how you should shake up his continuity. ), And there's even a place for darker things to happen in other comics like Spiderman (failing to save Gwen Stacy, the angst over uncle Ben.) or the X-men (Jean Grey Dieing, Xavier stepping down form the institute after a student lead a bunch of others on a rampage against the teaching staff and other students in an effort to take over and ultimately dieing, leaving Xavier to feel he well and truly failed as a mentor and it was time to get out of the game.)

    It's just that your also suppose to have Capes that win, that enjoy the life style, that like there powers and skills, that can have fun in there lives to balance it out. And that last part's becoming almost impossible to find.

    And I'll have to look into this Kirkman's Invincible then.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    If people are recommending indies, can I make a suggestion for Atomic Robo?

    Here he is fighting a talking dinosaur.
    (the website is the writers personal one so don't worry)
    Thanks to Lindorm for the Ziltoid avatar.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Yes, this is a very prevenlant Attitude among a lot of "Cultured" people (and I use the term loosely.) that has been picked up a lot by the hipster and academic community's. The hero is suppose to fail horribly, die trying, or achieve the goal at far greater cost then it was worth, or ultimately, at a complete sacrifice of himself. And that anything else is unacceptable, childish, lazy, "Mainstream" (Hipsters.) or giving up on true "Art" (Again, term loosely used.) to appeal to the masses as a means of "Selling out."

    And Teen Titans had some happy stuff in the 90's. There was of course Teen Angst, but it was still there. Superman could still end on a happy note with his story arch's most of the time. X-men still gave you actual hope for the characters, as did the Avengers, and even spider-man when Todd Macfarlane wasn't running it.

    And I'm not totally against dark characters. There's a place and time for things like Spawn, Punisher, Hell Boy, Batman (Pre-reboot.), Daredevil (Pre-civil War, particularly when he beat fisk into a coma and announced himself the new king of hells kitchen with the rule that you either cleaned up or got out. That BTW, is how you should shake up his continuity. ), And there's even a place for darker things to happen in other comics like Spiderman (failing to save Gwen Stacy, the angst over uncle Ben.) or the X-men (Jean Grey Dieing, Xavier stepping down form the institute after a student lead a bunch of others on a rampage against the teaching staff and other students in an effort to take over and ultimately dieing, leaving Xavier to feel he well and truly failed as a mentor and it was time to get out of the game.)

    It's just that your also suppose to have Capes that win, that enjoy the life style, that like there powers and skills, that can have fun in there lives to balance it out. And that last part's becoming almost impossible to find.
    I completely agree.

    I don't watch/read/play any form of entertainment to watch people being miserable. I don't find it even distantly enjoyable. I don't like, if you'll forgive me for using a possibly outdated TVtropeism, crapsack worlds at the best of times, and a lot of comics are going that way.

    There's a WORLD of difference between "miserable" and "imperiled" and a lot of writers seem unable to be able to tell the difference (yes, Joss Whedon, this means you especially, even given how good you are when on top form otherwise).

    I'm not so enamoured of superheroes generally that I'm really bothered about looking into new ones either. I got into comics completely by means of the animated shows, because I liked them and their characters; now that interest is fading, I think have other things I'd rather spend my money on (like the MLP comic, which I am sort of hoping is going to at least make a spirited attempt to be like the show...)

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I know... It's just that I am a shallow guy who prefer my mainstream superhero comics. And of course the Franco-Belgian classics (Astrerix, Lucky Luke etc)
    Well, if you want some good superheroes not owned by the Big 2, I can give some recommendations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gettles View Post
    If people are recommending indies, can I make a suggestion for Atomic Robo?

    Here he is fighting a talking dinosaur.
    (the website is the writers personal one so don't worry)
    *Hugs you*
    Last edited by turkishproverb; 2012-11-12 at 08:03 PM.
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    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeshLush View Post
    Just to shine some light in the darkness: at least Neil Gaiman is bringing back Sandman next year.
    I am so torn on this one. I loved Sandman. Still do. Even dig most of the spin-offs (Tessaly is awesome). But I also sort of loved that the Sandman ended. The character had a complete arc and it was good. Does the series NEED a prequel? Did anyone actually read Sandman and think the pre-capture story was the great untold story?

    On the other hand, more Sandman! And Gaiman is and always will be an awesome writer. And if we get one more issue with the power of, say, 24 Hours, The Sound of Her Wings, Ramadan, etc, etc, then the world will be better off for it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    Well, if you want some good superheroes not owned by the Big 2, I can give some recommendations.
    Being firmly in the "love superheros, hate mainstream superhero comics" demographic, I would greatly appreciate such recommendations.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Off the top of my head?
    Zot.
    Invincible.
    Powers (kinda. Follows the police in a world with superheroes)
    Umbrella Academy
    Next Men
    Empowered
    and the aforementioned Atomic Robo. kinda.
    Grendel (kidna. You...you have to read it to know why it's "kinda")
    Irredeemable
    Incorruptible
    hellboy (Kinda. More Pulp-Hero Horror)

    If you don't mind japanese superheroes, I can give you a few more, like Kamen Rider Spirits, Tiger and Bunny (Yea it's a show, but the comic is good too), and the old school Codename Sailor V and Sailor Moon.

    Also IF you need more, or you can tell me what "kind" of superhero stories you like, I can get more specific/add items.
    Last edited by turkishproverb; 2012-11-12 at 11:45 PM.
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    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

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    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    I don't really like "happy capes." While it's somewhat distressing to learn that I'm some pretentious faux-cultured hipster, I'm honestly pretty comfortable with it, all things considered.

    Anyhow, I think there's a difference between the '90s XTREME GRITTY nonsense and the realization the people who live their lives lying to or keeping secrets from their loved ones to fight one life-threatening battle after another would have to have something seriously wrong with them to "enjoy the lifestyle." There's numerous other problems in comics, but I don't really feel like one of them is the inclusion of consequences, even serious ones, to the lives of characters whose occupation is based on serial mendacity and solving problems with violence, even with the best intentions and even/especially if those are their only real options. The execution of those consequences is often lacking, but I feel like talking about it from the perspective of how "dark" comics are is a kind of reductive look at what's really wrong with comics, nowadays.

    Pluse, I mean, c'mon, we're nowhere near enough pockets-per-square-inch to be in the "New '90s."
    Last edited by Zrak; 2012-11-13 at 05:10 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    I never got into superhero comics because everything I know and see about them says "angst wanking". I'm not a fan, but it doesn't suprise me that there are fans who feel the same.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    Pluse, I mean, c'mon, we're nowhere near enough pockets-per-square-inch to be in the "New '90s."
    Its more boring then dark.

    Thing is, you have to be willing to ignore some of the extra realistic stuff.

    If heroes spend more time whining about the real life problems then just having fun adventures then why bother?

    No superhero will TRULY exist in real life, so comics are great for ignoring some of the more realistic stuff to tell more fun exiting stories.

    Real life is BORING. So why bother try to emulate it so much?

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teron View Post
    Being firmly in the "love superheros, hate mainstream superhero comics" demographic, I would greatly appreciate such recommendations.
    Just wanted to say, there are some GREAT mainstream superhero comics. Both Marvel and DC have learned that some times they should just get those really good artists go crazy and do whatever they want, no string's attached.

    Dan Abnett's Annihilation (2006) is absolutely incredible. It brought Nova to the A-list. It was the starting point for Guardians of the Galaxy, one of the best team books ever written.

    Mark Waid's run on Daredevil (2011?) is amazing. Swashbuckler stories and juggling the concept of secret identity really really well. It's a return to Daredevil's origins, but ignoring nothing about how much he evolved through the years.
    Avengers Academy has fresh new characters with fresh new interactions and refreshingly new twists. It does angst, but it does angst very well and it's not a dark book.
    Future Foundation makes Reed Richards be useful and the Fantastic Four seem like the most badass heroes around, which supposedly was their point all along.
    Red Hood and the Outlaws is surprisingly good (if you don't know who those characters were before).
    Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman makes you realize how great a character she is and how much DC has ruined her since, well, ever.
    I hate Geoff Johns with the power of a thousand exploding suns, but his first few issues of Aquaman are deliciously good.
    Bendis seems to have gone crazy these last few years, but Ultimate Comics Spider-Man is still badass. Miles Morales is the most likeable character I've known since, hm, Peter Parker.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Its more boring then dark.

    Thing is, you have to be willing to ignore some of the extra realistic stuff.
    I mean, I'm not asking for an issue about Tony Stark talking to his accountant or a plot arc about Donald Blake looking for a better provider for his malpractice insurance. I'm asking for the characters have some semblance of a non-sociopathic human psyche. I mean, unless it's, like, Deadpool or something. I'm sure he does enjoy being an (anti-)hero, since serial mendacity and wanton violence were his bread-and-butter before he (kind of) changed his stripes. I feel like there is a problem with, say, Spiderman's reaction to beating the living hell out of a bunch of guys, nearly dying, and keeping most of his life a secret from everyone he loves being largely the same as an in-universe psycopath's reaction to that lifestyle.

    Being a superhero is stressful, often painful work, faced with a lot of difficult reminders about how Quixotic a dream it is. Or at least it should be; "With great power comes great responsibility," after all, and there's no hook or human element to the story without an at least somewhat verisimilar attention on the latter. Otherwise it's just a bunch of action scenes with colorful shapes that kind of look human, but otherwise aren't believable as such.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    The greatest blast I had with Superheroes PERIOD was with the JL animated series (....Except maybe brave and bold). Even beating BTAs.

    It had nearly no background happenings, and absolutely zero reflection on the human side of the mask.

    But it had great (Or even amazing) plots without needing any of that stuff.

    I didn't need character exposition. I FELT the characters. I understood how they would act and what kind of person they where.

    I would even Say Question Authority is my favorite superhero related movie.

    It dealt with real questions and real reactions of the government to the heroes and vice versa.

    It was awesome.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    I mean, I'm not asking for an issue about Tony Stark talking to his accountant or a plot arc about Donald Blake looking for a better provider for his malpractice insurance. I'm asking for the characters have some semblance of a non-sociopathic human psyche. I mean, unless it's, like, Deadpool or something. I'm sure he does enjoy being an (anti-)hero, since serial mendacity and wanton violence were his bread-and-butter before he (kind of) changed his stripes. I feel like there is a problem with, say, Spiderman's reaction to beating the living hell out of a bunch of guys, nearly dying, and keeping most of his life a secret from everyone he loves being largely the same as an in-universe psycopath's reaction to that lifestyle.

    Being a superhero is stressful, often painful work, faced with a lot of difficult reminders about how Quixotic a dream it is. Or at least it should be; "With great power comes great responsibility," after all, and there's no hook or human element to the story without an at least somewhat verisimilar attention on the latter. Otherwise it's just a bunch of action scenes with colorful shapes that kind of look human, but otherwise aren't believable as such.
    You basically just described the original Marvel comics and their attempt to humanize superheroes. Spiderman especially was a result of this as it focused on his daily problems with girls, his secret identity, and how stressful the whole things was.

    But they balanced that out, rather well, with moments of hope and happiness. Yes, Spiderman goes through Hell on a daily basis. But you know what? At the end of the day he went back home to Mary-Jane and they were happy, oh they had their marital problems of course, but it was a light and a means for the reader to be attached to a character and their problems without growing detached and despondent to the hate-filled world the hero has to continually fight against. It's actually a very basic style of writing that has been around forever. There's a reason that the damsel in distress became a cliche, sure the hero will have to fight whatever monster is holding said damsel, but at the end there is the promise of happiness. Of course that cliche has numerous other problems that could take a whole separate thread to get into, but I'm just using it as a quick example here. The problem many here see is that the light has gone out. Parker no longer has MJ to go back to. Now his life just sucks and all we get to see is more of his life sucking.

    This can work, actually rather well for the right sort of audience and the right sort of story. The problem is, the spiraling tunnel of horrible will drag down a long running established continuity, perhaps not as fast as an always victorious happy-go lucky camper, but still inevitably. Without threat, problems, and tension you have no story, but without overcoming the problems there is no resolution, or sense of accomplishment. You need both to have a continuing story that has lasted as long as most mainstream superheroes have.

    So while I disagree that real life is boring, or that I want a superhero who is solely defined by how exciting and awesome they and their powers are as a few of the above posters have claimed. Going the other route can be detrimental as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    The greatest blast I had with Superheroes PERIOD was with the JL animated series (....Except maybe brave and bold). Even beating BTAs.

    It had nearly no background happenings, and absolutely zero reflection on the human side of the mask.

    But it had great (Or even amazing) plots without needing any of that stuff.

    I didn't need character exposition. I FELT the characters. I understood how they would act and what kind of person they where.

    I would even Say Question Authority is my favorite superhero related movie.

    It dealt with real questions and real reactions of the government to the heroes and vice versa.

    It was awesome.
    This is actually quite blatantly false. The JLA show did demonstrate the human side of superheroes, rather a lot. However they did it all in costume. We saw Solomon Grundy and Hawkgirl confront their views on religion. We saw Hawkgirl and Green Lantern suffer relationship problems. We saw Green Lantern try maintain himself as an African American role model, and deal with feelings of guilt over a wrong he committed. We saw Martian Manhunter struggle to fit in and sense a feeling of homesickness. This is the reflection of the human side and to me personally played a hugely important role in why the show was so successful.

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