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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Augh! Thats not what I meant.

    I meant that the standard Spiderman issue "WAAAAAAH! I don't want to be a superhero!" that seems to permeate the medium was not there.

    I want tough issues for the characters, but goddamit stop it with the "WAAAAAAAAAAH! I don't want to be Spider/ Bat/ Super/ Pooper man".

    Its possibly the biggest cliche in comic books.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    You basically just described the original Marvel comics and their attempt to humanize superheroes. Spiderman especially was a result of this as it focused on his daily problems with girls, his secret identity, and how stressful the whole things was.
    Hey, man, I quoted Uncle Ben for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    But they balanced that out, rather well, with moments of hope and happiness. Yes, Spiderman goes through Hell on a daily basis. But you know what? At the end of the day he went back home to Mary-Jane and they were happy, oh they had their marital problems of course, but it was a light and a means for the reader to be attached to a character and their problems without growing detached and despondent to the hate-filled world the hero has to continually fight against.
    Well, yeah, but that's not a "happy cape," that's a guy who's a cape because he has a responsibility to be who's a happy husband/boyfriend as an escape from the trauma and stress of his job. In other words, Spiderman isn't happy, Spiderman is getting beaten around fighting something he'll fundamentally never defeat all day, while suffering the slings and arrows of an ungrateful world. Peter Parker is happy. Peter Parker has a loving family who remind him of why it's important that he has to keep being Spiderman because he can, and because Spiderman has the power to defend people like them for people like Peter Parker who, superhero or not, need their loved ones.

    The problem here is selling both ends of it. Just coming home to Mary Jane and Aunt May and all his troubles going away is plain and simply lazy storytelling. They're a network of support that allows him to overcome those troubles, as you say, but like most writing, this goes back to a degree of "show, don't tell." When this is done well, it should show why guys like Spiderman even the much-more-traumatized Wolverine can kind of get by surprisingly okay in the world, while the Frank Castles mutter to themselves and keep deranged journals in grimy alleyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    It's actually a very basic style of writing that has been around forever. There's a reason that the damsel in distress became a cliche, sure the hero will have to fight whatever monster is holding said damsel, but at the end there is the promise of happiness. Of course that cliche has numerous other problems that could take a whole separate thread to get into, but I'm just using it as a quick example here. The problem many here see is that the light has gone out. Parker no longer has MJ to go back to. Now his life just sucks and all we get to see is more of his life sucking.
    Yeah, but a lot of the most successful, enduring, and memorable stories within a framework are those that break from it. The Arthur story hasn't remained as poignant and compelling throughout the centuries as it has in spite of, but because of the fact that neither Arthur nor Lancelot could really rely on that promise of happiness at the end. The fact that they did good and acted honorably, regardless, is part of what has made them such memorable heroes; the fact that they sometimes did wrong and acted dishonorably, as a result, is part of what has kept them such relatable heroes.

    My point is not that taking away Mary Jane was a good decision, necessarily, or that it will improve the comic, but that I think complaining about the event and/or tone, rather than the execution, is the problem. Removing Mary Jane from his life, even in the kinda inane way it was done, could have taken the story in a lot of really cool directions that gave the reader a sense of the kind of hero Spiderman is -- and the kind of man Peter Parker is -- when his back is against the wall and the world is at its worst. The character could develop in a lot of new, interesting ways that not only tell a good story, but perhaps allow the character to address and provide a sympathetic analogue for even more personal trials and tribulations than before; we could see the same humanizing look at isolation and loneliness for adults that young Peter Parker sometimes gave us for teenagers, some time ago. Instead, we got (as someone else aptly put it) angst wank.

    I guess what I mean is that I don't think it's constructive or even insightful to lambaste "darkness" (or whatever word one chooses) in comics without looking at the deeper problem, which is the execution that made the tone or plot decision ineffectual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    So while I disagree that real life is boring, or that I want a superhero who is solely defined by how exciting and awesome they and their powers are as a few of the above posters have claimed. Going the other route can be detrimental as well.
    I agree with this essentially entirely.
    Last edited by Zrak; 2012-11-13 at 08:13 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    I'm not a regular reader of mainstream comics by any means, so I'm not up to date with what Spiderman is doing, but I think part of the issue is the desire for writers to have character development, combined with a status quo that has been around for over half a century.

    In the public consciousness, Spider Man is always going to be Peter Parker, singly guy living with his aunt, working as a photographer, fighting crime while dealing with the countless problems that can't be solved by sticking them to the wall with webbing.
    Moving him on from that status quo can lead to great storytelling. But it's a tricky Status Quo. Part of the draw of big name superheros like Batman or Spider Man is that the general pop culture knows enough about them that a reader can jump into the start of more or less any plotline, and usually follow along as they go.

    Everybody knows Peter Parker as a single guy working for the Daily Bugle as an unappreciated photographer. If a reader who hasn't been following along opens the pages and sees a married guy with a kid on the way , they'll just be confused.


    Concerning "Darkness" In comics. One of my all time favorite series is The Goon, which I think handles it very well.

    From a description, The Goon is a very dark setting. You've got monstrous fish people coming out of the harbor, a horde of zombies on Lonely Street, only held in check by the actions of the local Mafia (Which is basically The Goon, Frankie, and the Mud Brothers), who finance their operation largely through protection rackets. Law enforcement has only been shown twice, first working with the Zombie Priest, and the second time arresting the goon for fighting off an army of murderous robots (Long story).

    And yet, Chinatown aside, The Goon remains largely upbeat and lighthearted. For the most part, problems exist until some combination of Punching, Shooting, or Stabbing is applied to them. The Goon may be living a life of heartache and misery, but at least he's living it to the fullest.

    Mind you, I think part of that may be that The Goon dosn't wear a mask. Most superheroes are doomed to a life of loneliness (Crossovers and the extended bat-family aside). After a long day of killing zombies, The Goon can kick back at the bar and talk about it. Peter Parker has no such outlet.

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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Didn't see it brought up, but, if you're looking for a fun series, Matt Fraction's Hawkeye is a friggin blast.

    It basically follows Clint Barton and Kate Bishop on their days off from superhero work... and the absurd amount of trouble they tend to fall into. It's got some solid writing, gorgeous art, and the main charecters play off each other incredibly well.

    Also, as mentioned above, Atomic Robo is pretty much the greatest thing ever.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

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    Last edited by BRC; 2012-11-14 at 05:15 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    .

    In the public consciousness, Spider Man is always going to be Peter Parker, singly guy living with his aunt, working as a photographer, fighting crime while dealing with the countless problems that can't be solved by sticking them to the wall with webbing.
    Moving him on from that status quo can lead to great storytelling. But it's a tricky Status Quo. Part of the draw of big name superheros like Batman or Spider Man is that the general pop culture knows enough about them that a reader can jump into the start of more or less any plotline, and usually follow along as they go.
    This is why they tend to have explanations as to what happened during the beginnings of most good storylines and it gets brought up a bit.

    Why is Peter not working for Jameson? Because he's using his actual skills properly now and Jameson now has better things to do than harass this one guy. It takes about four sentences and you can follow along without them even if you don't see those four if you have any brains.

    I am sick to death of that excuse. When I read my first comic, it was Plastic Man, in the middle of a storyline, and I didn't know who anybody was. I didn't get an explanation. I didn't need one, because I was capable of actually paying attention to who's saying what to who and was able to figure out their relationships from that. I had a great time. I was about eight years old and wasn't confused in the slightest.

    Saying Spider-man needs to stick to the status quo so people won't get confused is akin to saying nobody who reads Spider-man can follow a plot. It's quite frankly insulting.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    This is why they tend to have explanations as to what happened during the beginnings of most good storylines and it gets brought up a bit.

    Why is Peter not working for Jameson? Because he's using his actual skills properly now and Jameson now has better things to do than harass this one guy. It takes about four sentences and you can follow along without them even if you don't see those four if you have any brains.

    I am sick to death of that excuse. When I read my first comic, it was Plastic Man, in the middle of a storyline, and I didn't know who anybody was. I didn't get an explanation. I didn't need one, because I was capable of actually paying attention to who's saying what to who and was able to figure out their relationships from that. I had a great time. I was about eight years old and wasn't confused in the slightest.

    Saying Spider-man needs to stick to the status quo so people won't get confused is akin to saying nobody who reads Spider-man can follow a plot. It's quite frankly insulting.
    This. Seriously. I remember my first exposer to Teen Titans comic book continuity was when I picked up a random collection at the library once many many years ago, and it was the Grant Morrison 90's/very early 2000's run on the franchise, and I had no idea at the time who Tim Drake, Bart Allen, Cassandra Sandsmark and Conner Kent were, and precious little concept of who Beast Boy/Changling, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire where, most of the latter coming form the Teen Titans Animated series. I followed just fine, I really liked it, I went back for quite a bit more.


    First time I read Daredevil, it was the middle of the king of hells kitchen story arch. I figured it our pretty fast.

    Really, it's generally NOT that hard if your interested enough to bother really trying.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    For the record, I have rarely had trouble joining a comic series mid-plot. Often I'll encounter a few current issues, then track down the earlier ones and read those. For all their talk of convoluted continuity, in my experience, comics tend to be fairly accessible. You may not know that, in an arc a few years ago, Captain X betrayed The Incredible Y, but when X and Y meet on the page, you can appreciate that they don't trust each other without knowing the backstory.

    I think the confusion only really comes in with iconic superheroes, the ones everybody already knows the stories too. Which brings me to this.
    Saying Spider-man needs to stick to the status quo so people won't get confused is akin to saying nobody who reads Spider-man can follow a plot. It's quite frankly insulting.
    That's not what I'm saying. Readers who have been following Spider Man can easily follow the plot. Readers who don't know spider man can jump in without too much trouble.

    The trouble is readers who know Spider Man (Or at least the popculture status-quo version of him) but have not been following along. They get confused when the Spider Man they encounter on the page is not the one general pop culture has told them to expect.

    I think that clinging to the status quo may also come from two other directions: the Writers, and the Buisness-types.

    The Writers: Comic Book Writers become comic book writers because they want to tell stories. As a series gets passed from writer to writer, especially an iconic series like Spider Man, I can imagine a temptation to reset things and tell YOUR stories, rather than to deal with the baggage leftover by previous authors.


    Alex is a kid, he grows up reading about Captain X and his battles against the dastardly evil Doctor Z. And, like any kid, spends his time thinking up new stories.

    Bob is a comic book writer, while Alex is in his teens, Bob writes a story where Doctor Z sees the error of his ways and switches sides, teaming up with Captain X.

    Alex is now an adult, and a comic book writer. When Bob retires, Alex is given control over the Captain X books. But he wants to tell stories about Captain X fighting Doctor Z, so he writes a story where we learn that Doctor Z was actually still evil, he just faked his redemption so he could learn Captain X's weaknesses.

    and then the fans rage.


    Also, don't forget about the business angle. If stories about Captain X punching Doctor Z have sold well for 30 years, even if the story of Doctor Z's redemption is very well received, there is always going to be a temptation to return to the tried-and-true formula. Especially if you're expecting a new wave of readers from, say, a movie (Which, like most superhero movies, features Captain X's origin story, and is therefore set before the redemption of Doctor Z).

    And then the fans rage.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    In the public consciousness, Spider Man is always going to be Peter Parker, singly guy living with his aunt, working as a photographer, fighting crime while dealing with the countless problems that can't be solved by sticking them to the wall with webbing.
    I have to protest on the first point. For a VERY large majority of spider man readers, who has followed the comic for many years, for about 20 years Spidey has been living together with MJ, not his aunt. One More Day screwed that up, because of what you say above, but I seriously contest the notion that Peter living with his aunt is the "default" situation anymore.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    And people: Tis the year of Wikapedias.

    Tis an excuse no longer.

    In fact Im MORE likely to get involved after finding out all these interesting things.

    Possibly want to retroactively buy the comics for the things I find interesting to get better insight.

    It was one thing to read about Superman Red-Son on wikapedia. It was another to read the comic book (that I bought)

    Now think about that! What profits could be reigned if people started buying older issues of comics?

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I have to protest on the first point. For a VERY large majority of spider man readers, who has followed the comic for many years, for about 20 years Spidey has been living together with MJ, not his aunt. One More Day screwed that up, because of what you say above, but I seriously contest the notion that Peter living with his aunt is the "default" situation anymore.
    More pertinently, this sort thing is screwing your EXISTING FANBASE that are the ones who have been buying your comic (for the last twenty years) in the vain hope of attracting new, different fans.

    I often wonder what kind of thought runs through the minds of people who come up with this idea, as if they can make anything be mainstream enough to be, I dunno, Mars bars or something. If anything, you would have thought that keeping your grognards would be the best solution, since, fer cryin' out loud, they're likely to be buying stuff for years; steady money. But no, expansion to try to attract more customers (at the expense of your existing ones), that's a muuuch better idea, isnt it?

    Comics aren't the only businesses being this fraktarded, of course; nor even the only entertainment industries - this was a known problem with a lot of ISPs and phone companies, where new customers got a better deal than long standing ones. Funnily enough, the businesses had to make A Thing about not doing that after a while, because loads of people started switching providers every five minutes to get the best deal. Because, funnily enough, if you don't show loyalty to your customers, they ain't gonna show loyalty to you.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-11-15 at 05:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    your EXISTING FANBASE that are the ones who have been buying your comic (for the last twenty years)
    This is part of the problem. What with the price of comics and the pants-on-head distribution system they're running, pulling in new fans isn't just a matter of revamping current properties. As you point out, their current market is pretty much exactly the same old market they've had for literal decades. The Big Two's fans grew up, and started preferring 'meatier' fare, even if essentially lacking in substance (Marvel's event-happy ethos and DC's REBOOT GODDAMN EVERYTHING ethos, for example). This, plus the continuity lockout, is why trying to pull in new buyers is a loser's proposition: the current model doesn't lend itself to new buyers, and any attempt to get new buyers is met with a loss of old buyers. And so the franchise stagnates.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    I just noticed that almost all the american comic books I like are by Dark Horse. And they don't do classic superheroes.

    It's not really an issue with american comics, but an issue of superhero comics.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    It's not really an issue with american comics, but an issue of superhero comics.
    The problem then being that the market is almost entirely dominated by superhero comics. Snyder's Batman outsells the entire run of Archie on a monthly basis due to the market share factor.

    It's a shame, really. The big two have this propensity for revamping existing properties rather than expanding to incorporate new ones in this product line-up, under the misguided belief that non-capes don't sell. That's one thing that the Big Two could do to revitalize the industry - introduce more generic complexity into their line-ups. Rather than reducing cape books, they could, instead add, say, slice-of-life, romance, police procedural (one of the most popular TV genres, for example), etcetera.

    But, they're too focused on producing the same cape books.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    More pertinently, this sort thing is screwing your EXISTING FANBASE that are the ones who have been buying your comic (for the last twenty years) in the vain hope of attracting new, different fans.

    I often wonder what kind of thought runs through the minds of people who come up with this idea, as if they can make anything be mainstream enough to be, I dunno, Mars bars or something. If anything, you would have thought that keeping your grognards would be the best solution, since, fer cryin' out loud, they're likely to be buying stuff for years; steady money. But no, expansion to try to attract more customers (at the expense of your existing ones), that's a muuuch better idea, isnt it?

    Comics aren't the only businesses being this fraktarded, of course; nor even the only entertainment industries - this was a known problem with a lot of ISPs and phone companies, where new customers got a better deal than long standing ones. Funnily enough, the businesses had to make A Thing about not doing that after a while, because loads of people started switching providers every five minutes to get the best deal. Because, funnily enough, if you don't show loyalty to your customers, they ain't gonna show loyalty to you.
    I think it's more a panic.

    I mean, you see, they want to be as big as video games, but they don't want to put the WORK into it.

    It's easier to just pretend you do something big like the New 52, change a few things nobody cares about, then go on with buisness as usual using the same writers, same tone, and in a lot of cases barely paying attention to the reboot. They'll just ship the comics to the same providers and use the same artificial collectors market variant covers and use the same overworked price point.

    I mean, change is scary after all. It's so much easier to force it on others than to bear it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    The problem then being that the market is almost entirely dominated by superhero comics. Snyder's Batman outsells the entire run of Archie on a monthly basis due to the market share factor.
    Are we reading the same numbers? I mean outside the New 52, Archie's Double Digest regularly outsells Batman from what I've seen, at least going by averages, and does so by a comfortable lead.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2012-11-15 at 05:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Are we reading the same numbers? I mean outside the New 52, Archie's Double Digest regularly outsells Batman from what I've seen, at least going by averages, and does so by a comfortable lead.
    We may not be. Archie's digests outsell many of DC's books by a large amount, but their singles do awfully. At least last I checked.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    We may not be. Archie's digests outsell many of DC's books by a large amount, but their singles do awfully. At least last I checked.
    Young Monica's Gang sells 400 thousand copies a month, every month, with spikes of 500 thousand. That's only in Brazil, not counting international number. It outsells every comic in America.
    One Piece's volume 60 sold 2 million copies on it's first week out. It outsells every comic in the world.
    The best selling comics, both in America and in the world, are not superhero comics. Make of that what you will.
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-11-16 at 12:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    The best selling comics, both in America in the world, are not superhero comics. Make of that what you will.
    Makes sense. We know for a fact that the American comic industry is in the deep doodoo.

    Capebooks are just not the way to go, but it's not just a matter of generic variety, it's also the distribution system. I don't know about Young Monica's Gang, but I know for a fact that One Piece isn't slave to Diamond's tyrannical monopoly on the direct market, and thus doesn't suffer from it like the Big Two's books do.

    Plus, you know. One Piece doesn't cater exclusively to an ancient and withered fanbase the way DC and Marvel do, although I may be wrong.

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    I think its because of grocery power.

    Thing is, even though I would normally not seek out Archie comics, I always get this big temptation to buy a copy whilst in line getting groceries. Cause its one of the only entertainment at the lines.

    Its possible thats how the comics get a major boost:

    Easier availability. Now comics are only sold in comic shops, forever preventing new customers.

    But if it was available in common shops, the eye-catching covers would attract boys and girls all over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    Makes sense. We know for a fact that the American comic industry is in the deep doodoo.

    Capebooks are just not the way to go,
    Well I sincerely hope some of them survive since it is basically the only kind of comics I am interested in. At least if you only count comics that are still being created (Asterix is, technically, still being drawn but the last album suxxorz to the degree that nobody considers it canon).

    Speaking of Batman btw, am I the only one here that finds him incredibly boring?
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    I'm not really a fan of Batman, but some of my favourite books are Batman books. Modern Batman one of those characters - like the Punisher - who suffers when placed in the superhero context. It's hard to take a storyline like No Man's Land seriously, for example, when Superman is literally right over there - yet when he tries to help out, every one of his efforts fails for a contrived reason.

    On the other hand, the Batman/Superman friendship is one of my favourite dynamics in cape books, so I really don't know what to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    I think its because of grocery power.

    Thing is, even though I would normally not seek out Archie comics, I always get this big temptation to buy a copy whilst in line getting groceries. Cause its one of the only entertainment at the lines.
    That's definitely part of it. Comics nowadays are mostly only ever sold via subscription or in comic book stores*, places most people wouldn't spare a second thought for going into. There's no opportunity to attract casual readers at all, unlike with Archie books which are literally right out there or in the open tempting people to spend on them to see what's inside.

    Diamond (which handles nearly all big name comic book distribution) is making the conscious decision not to do this, and I can't recall why. But seriously, major factor in why comic books don't reach more people.

    * They ARE also sold as trades in bookstores, which is frankly a much more accessible way to handle comics
    Last edited by Kalmarvho; 2012-11-16 at 02:30 AM.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    That's definitely part of it. Comics nowadays are mostly only ever sold via subscription or in comic book stores*, places most people wouldn't spare a second thought for going into. There's no opportunity to attract casual readers at all, unlike with Archie books which are literally right out there or in the open tempting people to spend on them to see what's inside.
    That is a big difference compared to here. Here all translated comics are sold on the same shelf (that means Spider Man and a few other superhero comics) as Disney, Archie, and kid comics.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    More pertinently, this sort thing is screwing your EXISTING FANBASE that are the ones who have been buying your comic (for the last twenty years) in the vain hope of attracting new, different fans.

    I often wonder what kind of thought runs through the minds of people who come up with this idea, as if they can make anything be mainstream enough to be, I dunno, Mars bars or something. If anything, you would have thought that keeping your grognards would be the best solution, since, fer cryin' out loud, they're likely to be buying stuff for years; steady money. But no, expansion to try to attract more customers (at the expense of your existing ones), that's a muuuch better idea, isnt it?
    Absolutely. Sales skyrocketed after the DC relaunch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Young Monica's Gang sells 400 thousand copies a month, every month, with spikes of 500 thousand. That's only in Brazil, not counting international number. It outsells every comic in America.
    One Piece's volume 60 sold 2 million copies on it's first week out. It outsells every comic in the world.
    The best selling comics, both in America and in the world, are not superhero comics. Make of that what you will.
    In Germany, the monthly 250 pages Donald Duck comics sell about 250,000 copies by the latest number I've got. And we got significant less than half the population of Brazil with a significantly older demographic.
    Last edited by Yora; 2012-11-16 at 06:21 AM.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    In Germany, the monthly 250 pages Donald Duck comics sell about 250,000 copies by the latest number I've got. And we got significant less than half the population of Brazil with a significantly older demographic.
    That's very impressive. It just further proves the model they use in the US simply does not work.

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    The format is very different, though. I havn't read any of the new ones in the past 15 years, but from the 70s to the 90s, each book was two or three big adventure stories of 80 pages or so and two shorter ones that still got 20 to 30 pages. In size they are about the same as manga books and the older black and white ones from the 70s also have similar production value. Now they are full color, but the amount of time that goes into a page and the cost for printing that page are much smaller than what I've seen from contemporary superhero comics.
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    The result is, that you get a lot more story and dialog for your monney. It suprises me how much effort recent superhero comics put into the artwork when you still race through the speech bubbles in a minute. Sure, it looks great, but it doesn't seem like good use of limited resourches.
    With a 200 pages book, a kid can have a week of entertainment, or you can get through one long train ride. With superhero comics, I think you're through the whole thing in less than 20 minutes.

    And that's not even going into the subject of putting the characters into interesting situations and experiencing exciting things. I'm not a superhero fan, but having a baddy show up, the heroes mumbling something about their inner torment, and muscled people in capes throwing each other around is not that captivating. Especially when the very same things happens next week.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Most people aren't too fond of the idea of spending three dollars for five minutes' worth of entertainment. And when you've got awful artists like Greg Land on the job, the art isn't worth it either.

    And then you consider you're getting that five minutes's worth every month, well, it's no wonder the American comic book format isn't considered worth much.

    They should either stick to trades or go with digests. The monthly format isn't conducive to a good story at all, and the whole rushjob nature of the whole mess is what presses formerly decent artists (like the aforementioned Greg Land) into tracing just to save time.

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    20 pages for $3 is insane. The Donald Duck comics I mentioned are 5,50€ for 250 pages. That's $0.15 compared to $0.03 per page with the same amount of content.

    And that's nothing when you compare it to Japan, where the giants of the market have 500 pages for $3. Every week.
    Yes, they are incredibly cheaply made and intended to be thrown away after reading them once. And great deals of the stories are garbage, but superhero comics are facing accusations of attrociously bad stories as well. It looks to me as if superhero comics pay way too much attention to the collectors value over the easily accesible entertainment aspect.
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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    It looks to me as if superhero comics pay way too much attention to the collectors value over the easily accesible entertainment aspect.
    That's an unfortunate remnant of the 90's, of course.

    The true plague of the 90's wasn't the angsty, grimdark aesthetic that was smeared all over everything or the awful art. It was the obsession with the collector's market. Playing directly to that market - with all the SPECIAL EDITIONS and ISSUE 1 - as though, say, holographic foil covers had any inherent value in and of themselves helped bring the industry to its knees (which is partly why Marvel doesn't have the movie rights to Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, or Daredevil).

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    Default Re: [Comics] Are We in the New 90s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    Most people aren't too fond of the idea of spending three dollars for five minutes' worth of entertainment. And when you've got awful artists like Greg Land on the job, the art isn't worth it either.
    Young Monica's Gang costs R$7,50 (around 4 dollars) it's out every month and sells a lot.
    One Piece costs 500 yen (around 5 dollars) and it sells a lot more than any superhero comic. One Piece is published twice, actually - once in WSJ and once in tankobon format. Those figure are just for tanbokon.
    Basically the problem is not price. It's the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    And then you consider you're getting that five minutes's worth every month, well, it's no wonder the American comic book format isn't considered worth much.
    The format used in the Unided States does not work well, but I don't think it can be called american. Brazil is in America and does not use that format, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    They should either stick to trades or go with digests.
    Agreed. Japan does both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmarvho View Post
    The monthly format isn't conducive to a good story at all, and the whole rushjob nature of the whole mess is what presses formerly decent artists (like the aforementioned Greg Land) into tracing just to save time.
    Not sure how I much I agree. There are plenty monthly comics that are great.
    To me, the problem mostly comes from an artist working on more than one book at once. For both brazilian and japanese comics, you don't have a single person doing all the drawing, so that helps a lot, as well.

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