Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[Morph Bark]

I wonder what the effect would be if Naruto and Bleach switched writers.

[LaZodiac]

Naruto would get better art about 70% of the time, but Bleach would actually have a good story. I'll give Kishimoto this, he knows how to use side characters.

If Kubo was writing Naruto, Naruto would be fighting this entire fight againest Obito and Madara solo right now. And winning.

[Somewhere]

Well, if I am to believe the implications of my completely uninformed and second-hand knowledge of what other people have said on that subject, that may not be an especially difficult achievement...!

That is to say, I gather the more recent works have garnered a ...dubious reception from the fanbase...

Eh, I wouldn't describe the reception to be that bad. Naruto's taken a hit, but it's a hit from being consistently in the top 5 of weekly Jump's polls to going anywhere between 3 and 9 out of ~20 series. That #9 placing was listed in issue 40, which means that was the placing for the chapter serialized in issue 32.... so, anybody remembers what happened 21 issues ago?
Also, recently there's been a new strong competitor for regular top 5 placement; Assassination Classroom.
As opposed to Bleach which has placed anywhere between 9 and 18 for the past 3/4 of the year at least.

Edit: For that matter, Naruto volume sales are still holding at the 1 to 1.2 million mark, looking at 2011 and 2012 top sellers lists.

[Nekura]

No, Naruto's childhood isolation and fear of the demon inside him (in what he might do if released) is angst. Hinata's fear she isn't good enough is angst. Etc etc.

Sasuke's and Pain's nonsense is just flat-out arrogant insane non-logic whining.



Pain's "I'm going to murder billions of people because my friend died" (and he literally said "billions" in the episode I watched yesterday) and them claim this is for the betterment of the world is just... I literally have no words appropriate to be re-iterated here. I mean, I knew the broad strokes of the plan (it was impossible to be reading fanfic and not be spoilered in that regard at the time), but what I thought I had gotten was the fact thy were going to use the tailed beasts as, like nuclear deterant and replace all the ninja villages with Akatsuki. So either I was totally missing the point, or the fanfic writers collectively treated Pain's canon with the contempt it deserved. (Or the English dub made kinda a major misstep somewhere.)

It'd be better if he was just doing out of sheer spite, because at least that wouldn't be so utterly, completely unfathomably... stupid as there aren't really not words to express what it actually is. That's right; I actually find SASUKE's "motivation" less retarded and more credible than Pain's. SASUKE'S.

Even Magneto, who is poster boy for this sort of thing, was quite cheerfully saying he was trying to commit mass genocide in the billions only for the betterment a particular segment of the population. And Pain is no Magneto, not even on Magneto's worst day.

There's just something about Pain, something about his smug, non-logical, idiotic self-righteousness that makes me want to tear his and Konan's souls into bloody fragments; not just to kill them but to break them in the most fundemental way possible. Heck, I thought Hidan seriously rubbed me the wrong way with his zealotry, but he's got nothing on Pain.



Sasuke, Itachi and Pain have achieved the unusual feat of not merely making me dislike them, but outright loathe them; they are only just a fractional hair above the Shi'Ar and Gladiator on my list of all time "things that need to have their souls disembowled with as much vicious violence and mindless screaming infinite and eternal pain as possible."



At least Madara/Tobi/whoeverthefrak he is seems to have a sense of humour.



...

...

You know what? This conversation has made me realise something completely horrifiying. I actually... I can't believe I'm saying this... I now actually feel a tiny, tiny, almost infinitesimal shred of sympathy for Sasuke.

I'm never going to feel clean again.

Pain was going to use them as a nuclear deterrent he was just going to drop the bomb a few (dozen) times first so that everyone could feel his pain. Most likely on all the ninja villages at the least being a more extreme example of wiping out the bloodline abilities to prevent war. You aren’t supposed to like him but he was still a better villain than any of the Uchia.

[Aotrs Commander]

Eh, I wouldn't describe the reception to be that bad. Naruto's taken a hit, but it's a hit from being consistently in the top 5 of weekly Jump's polls to going anywhere between 3 and 9 out of ~20 series. That #9 placing was listed in issue 40, which means that was the placing for the chapter serialized in issue 32.... so, anybody remembers what happened 21 issues ago?
Also, recently there's been a new strong competitor for regular top 5 placement; Assassination Classroom.
As opposed to Bleach which has placed anywhere between 9 and 18 for the past 3/4 of the year at least.

Edit: For that matter, Naruto volume sales are still holding at the 1 to 1.2 million mark, looking at 2011 and 2012 top sellers lists.

I was talking about Bleach, which if I understand correctly, has hit something of a low point. So I'm told.

[Somewhere]

Oh, yea, Bleach isn't so hot anymore. It's still fine sales-wise, but it's declining and hasn't been anything special* in a couple of years at the very least. I personally think that the main reason it's doing mediocre as opposed to flat out bad in the polls is that it still has inertia from its fanbase, thus beating out those poor newcomer saps who aren't instant hits.

*special being 7 digits, or at least being noticably ahead of the pack

[Morph Bark]

'sfar as I know, Naruto continues to be ranked at #2 (rarely #3 at times) of the top-selling manga in Japan, and outside of Japan it ranks higher than One Piece. The only way in which it is not a top manga is if you compare it to how One Piece is doing in Japan, but no other manga ever would be called a top manga when compared to that.

Naruto would get better art about 70% of the time, but Bleach would actually have a good story. I'll give Kishimoto this, he knows how to use side characters.

If Kubo was writing Naruto, Naruto would be fighting this entire fight againest Obito and Madara solo right now. And winning.

I was primarily talking about just the writing, not the art, but thinking about it, if they'd team up after being done with Naruto and Bleach, with Kubo doing the art and Kishimoto doing the writing, things could turn out well.

Not just story- and art-wise, but also for themselves, because collaborations might not score super-high a lot, but they're always scoring pretty decently, and very few mangaka have managed to have that level of success with any work after finishing their one hit manga series.

Toriyama is, as always, one of these happy few.

[Somewhere]

Over the last couple of years, on a per-volume basis, Naruto's been flip flopping with Kimi ni Todoke for #2/#3. Close enough together that one can just say they tie.

[VanBuren]

Pain was going to use them as a nuclear deterrent he was just going to drop the bomb a few (dozen) times first so that everyone could feel his pain. Most likely on all the ninja villages at the least being a more extreme example of wiping out the bloodline abilities to prevent war. You aren’t supposed to like him but he was still a better villain than any of the Uchia.

I actually really liked his plan. Well, no. I hated it, but I liked it.

Because here you have Pain treating the Tailed Beasts like nuclear weapons. And in so doing, approaching them in a way that is not very much unlike how we treat them in real life. What you have here then, is some kind of cross between Adrian Veidt and RL Nuclear Deterrence: Demonstrate a weapon so terrible and powerful that people will stop fighting out of fear of it. The difference with Pain, is that he knows it won't work forever. And eventually it will be used again. Only when it is, people will learn to fear it all over again and peace will resume for a time.

Given that his home was perpetually war-torn, it's no surprise he might see brief flurries of destruction with intermittent peace to be an improvement.

It's not supposed to be a plan that makes you feel good. It's not supposed to be a path to peace. It's the path of someone so cynical that he doesn't believe it's possible to get closer to peace than that.

[darksolitaire]

I liked Pain and I still think that he was the best villain in Naruto, Orochimaru coming close second. Obito's revalation was disappointment in retrospect. It was commented by Naruto how Pain wanted peace by any means nesseccery, and that Tobi was different. Pain's back story was that he was traumatized by his loss of parents, and later became bitter when Yahiko died.

For Obito, dead of Rin is enough to send him reeling to the dark side. To me both his motivation and plan seem like watered down versions of Pain's. Pain wants peace, Obito wants pleasant dreams, which can be seen to have similar effect.

We still don't know Madara. He's around by accident and still hasn't lost his calm, sardonic demeanor. There's plenty untapped potential there.

[Ramza00]

@Aotrs Commander

Pain's plan with the tailed beast is to make a nuclear wmd with that power. Have countries use that wmd to kill people and because the weapon is so horrible...

There will be finally peace due to MAD.

And with this peace the world will be good and it will heal. Pain though is so cynical of life that he believes this peace will not last forever and then that there will be death and destruction again and war will return. His plan is to teach the world enough about pain that there will be peace for some time at least.

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Now you have not see the entire history of Pain yet Aotrs Commander but seeing the **** Pain has gone through as well as his country of rain (a little country stuck between three different superpowers, thus the other countries wars become the country's of rain war) and you might understand why Pain is so cynical with life. Of course he could have always committed suicide and end his suffering for his life is so ****ty, but people with a god complex don't commit suicide

The mind boggles. That... change... doesn't even seem to be narratively sensible.

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Actually the why Obitio turns bad is very well done, what happened to him with Rin's death literally breaks his philosophy extremely well.

He is left a broken shell of a boy, a boy who has his entire world completely broken and shaken.

What is not well done is showing how Madara then picks up the pieces and shapes Obitio into becoming Tobi.

• Pretty much Obitio's fall is well done
• Tobi's accession is not well done
• There is literally no explanation of what Tobi does for 15 years until part 2 of the manga.
• The explanation of Tobi/Obitio being the real Mizukage is not well done
• There is no good explanation why Tobi couldn't just kidnap a baby Naruto.
• There is no explanation on why Tobi was involved with the Uchihia massacre.
• There is a good flashback of Tobi fighting the fourth making the fight seem more poetic for you now understand why he attacked the villiage

[Ramza00]

I have a personal fan hand waving explanation on why Tobi didn't capture Naruto as a baby...it doesn't really work well but it works better than the current storyline. I am going to put it into a spoiler block for I know Aotrs Commander is not far enough in the story. Do not read this Aotrs Commander

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After the fourth hokage died granting Naruto the Kyubi, Tobi had no way to extra the Kyubi quickly from Naruto. Unlike Naruto's mom, Naruto a boy and thus could not get pregnant and have a child birth, thus if you wanted to extract the Kyubi you would need several S Class ninja and at least 3 day's time with the Gedō Mazō.

Well while Tobi can teleport pretty much anywhere at will at any time, even taking baby Naruto with him there was no way for him to extract the Kyubi without staying at one place for 3 days with several S Class ninja. Thus if anybody could find Tobi during those 3 days he was vulnerable to being attacked if he ever kidnapped Naruto.

No ninja that was normal could find Tobi, for pete sake he stay hidden as an unknown character for 15 years.

The Third Hokage, Hiruzen Sarutobi, is not a normal ninja. The Third Hokage had an incredible power a power so powerful that to my knowledge we have not seen anybody else in the manga with a similar power (besides the great toad sage). The power is known in D&D as

SCRY AND DIE

With his telescope technique (aka crystal ball) the Third Hokage can easily track the baby naruto if he was kidnapped. The Third Hokage may know nothing about Tobi who was the masked man that attacked the villiage during the night of the kyubi incident, but if the kyubi jinchūriki suddenly disapeared, then the third as well as teams of jonin could easily track Naruto down and deal with the kidnapper Tobi. By kidnapping Naruto Tobi would be reveling himself to the world, and revealing himself to the world would lead to Tobi's death.

The only way to survive as a missing nin even someone as strong as a Akatsuki member is to be either 1) non important 2) be invisible or 3) be constantly on the move. Even someone such as Orichimaru a sannin and a strong former Akatsuki member had to be moving constantly from hidden base to hidden base or else he would be assassinated. A couple of team of jonins can kill anybody in this series, the second hokage was killed by 20 jonin, this was the strongest (or second) strongest water user in the series as well as an expert at time/space ninjutsu and a practioner of edo tensai.

Thus there would be little reason for Tobi to kidnap Naruto if he couldn't get the Kyubi himself, there would only be risk without gain. This is one reason why Naruto's mom being pregnant was a perfect oppurtunity. Tobi could kidnap the Nine Tails, bind it to his will and then use it to destroy Konoha. Even if the nine tails couldn't destroy Konoha, in theory Tobi could retreat and he wouldn't be trackable (as long as he eliminates the fourth who has seen him) for the third hokage never saw the masked man and we don't know of the telescope technique can work on the Kyubi who is not like a normal human but instead is just a chakra beast. It is also possible that Tobi could just keep the Kyubi "in the void" that you appear to be able to do with the summoning technique (for example Sasuke was in the void after Manda was defeated until Manda was resummoned by Suigetsu).

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Furthermore even though Tobi knows of Gedo Mazo, Tobi himself doesn't sync with Gedo Mazo until after obtaining 1 of Pain's rinnegan. You need three things to sync with Gedo Mazo 1) Uchihia DNA, 2) Sensu DNA, and 3) a Rinnegan. Until after Pain's death Tobi lacked the Rinnegan.
Thus Tobi has to spend 15 years creating the organization Akatsuki. He purposefully befriends Yahiko for he needs Nagato for Nagato's Rinnegan is critical for the revival of the ten tails. Eventually Yahiko actions and eventually Yahiko's death causes Nagato to bind himself with the Gedo Mazo as well as become recepetive to Tobi's words.

Notice that Itachi and Kisame do not try to kidnap Narato until after the Third Hokage's death (Itachi is aware when the Third Hokage has died for his main reason of attending is checking up on Danzo and remdinding Danzo that he is still alive even though the Third is not so don't hurt Sasuke.)
Now I do not have any rational on why it takes 3 years before Akatsuke start tracking down the other tailed beast between years 12 to 15. I understand why they didn't go after Naruto since Naruto is almost always after Jirarya but you can't make the same excuse for the other Jinchūriki. At the end of Part 1 we see 9 Akatsuki members do their astral projection meeting stating Orochimaru has gotten the Sharingan but it is no matter for if they work together they can easily capture all 9 tailed beast in the next 3 years as well as elimiate orichmaru.

[LaZodiac]

I was primarily talking about just the writing, not the art, but thinking about it, if they'd team up after being done with Naruto and Bleach, with Kubo doing the art and Kishimoto doing the writing, things could turn out well.

Not just story- and art-wise, but also for themselves, because collaborations might not score super-high a lot, but they're always scoring pretty decently, and very few mangaka have managed to have that level of success with any work after finishing their one hit manga series.

Toriyama is, as always, one of these happy few.

In retrospect, that might be a bad idea. Maybe just have Kubo do the characters, and have Kishi do the backgrounds. Because as we all know, Kubo isn't afraid of dipping an entire page in black and writing the title name on it and THATS IT for the page. Or leaving it entirely blank except for "THE HEART" written on it.

THE HEART!

[Kato]

For Obito, dead of Rin is enough to send him reeling to the dark side. To me both his motivation and plan seem like watered down versions of Pain's. Pain wants peace, Obito wants pleasant dreams, which can be seen to have similar effect.

You know, I did like Pain's plan back then but compared to the Uchiha's it's really stupid. You kill a few thousand people and hope the others will be too afraid to keep fighting? Mind-raping everyone into being peaceful seems to make much more sense within the story to me.

[lord_khaine]

You know, I did like Pain's plan back then but compared to the Uchiha's it's really stupid. You kill a few thousand people and hope the others will be too afraid to keep fighting? Mind-raping everyone into being peaceful seems to make much more sense within the story to me.

You are not thinking in the right scale, Pain's goal was to share the pain he had experienced with the entire world, thats not going to stop at a few thousand people, 20-30% of the worlds population is more likely.

And thats whats suposed to scare people away from more war.

[Morph Bark]

You are not thinking in the right scale, Pain's goal was to share the pain he had experienced with the entire world, thats not going to stop at a few thousand people, 20-30% of the worlds population is more likely.

And thats whats suposed to scare people away from more war.

I dunno. Nuking two cities did pretty well in ending the Pacific front of WWII.

[Kato]

You are not thinking in the right scale, Pain's goal was to share the pain he had experienced with the entire world, thats not going to stop at a few thousand people, 20-30% of the worlds population is more likely.

And thats whats suposed to scare people away from more war.

What Morph said.
And mind raping everyone keeps the damage to a minimum and supposedly works forever. Or until Madara dies, whenever that is.

[lord_khaine]

I dunno. Nuking two cities did pretty well in ending the Pacific front of WWII.

Yeah, and that was after most of the fighting was done, you cant really compare that situation to the one Pain was stuck in.

And mind raping everyone keeps the damage to a minimum and supposedly works forever. Or until Madara dies, whenever that is.

Mind controlling everyone into creating a lasting peace is the Deus Ex Machina solution, and a pretty stupid one at that, considering how unlikely it sounds.

[Morph Bark]

Yeah, and that was after most of the fighting was done, you cant really compare that situation to the one Pain was stuck in.

Another major difference is that Pain would have control over what is basically a nuke that can recharge itself and be used again and again. After two uses and some spreading of the word, things would clear up well enough. After that his biggest problem would likely be his own death, since then there'd be nobody with control over the Gedo Mazo (at least, from his point of view; other than Obito maybe, who also isn't immortal).

[Sotharsyl]

Naruto would get better art about 70% of the time, but Bleach would actually have a good story. I'll give Kishimoto this, he knows how to use side characters.

If Kubo was writing Naruto, Naruto would be fighting this entire fight againest Obito and Madara solo right now. And winning.

Well to be honest Kishi did kind of do that move already with having Naruto create clones and send them everywhere on the battlefield.

[Socratov]

Well, if I am to believe the implications of my completely uninformed and second-hand knowledge of what other people have said on that subject, that may not be an especially difficult achievement...!

That is to say, I gather the more recent works have garnered a ...dubious reception from the fanbase...

correct on both accounts...

[Fjolnir]

Considering Pein's motivation for attacking the leaf in the way he did was literally "Jiriaya killed my DOG when I was little!", everybody runs around in snidely whiplash capes and twirls mustaches ominously in naruto when they are bad.

[darksolitaire]

Considering Pein's motivation for attacking the leaf in the way he did was literally "Jiriaya killed my DOG when I was little!", everybody runs around in snidely whiplash capes and twirls mustaches ominously in naruto when they are bad.

Yeah, well, there was this Jinchuuriki actually...

Or did you forget the blue text?

[Morph Bark]

Okay, so this chapter was awesome.

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Great work on part of Shikaku.

[Socratov]

Okay, so this chapter was awesome.

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Great work on part of Shikaku.

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that's why of the Konoha shinobi Asuma's group was alwyas one fo the strongest. they specialize in combinations and tactics. I mean, sure you can roflstomp as you like, but it might not just solve the problem...

[Kato]

Ah, new chapter was good. I wonder how long this will work... (why not totally drown the juubi to begin with?) but it was a nice joint effort... and now can we get to the serious fighting, pretty please?

[Nekura]

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I am surprised there are so many of the Sarutobi clan. I figured Konohamaru might have his parents still alive but that was much more then I thought there would be.

[Morph Bark]

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I am surprised there are so many of the Sarutobi clan. I figured Konohamaru might have his parents still alive but that was much more then I thought there would be.

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I actually quite like that they featured in this chapter like this. Shows that there is more to their clan than just having delivered one of the Kage.

[Cen]

so now it's 2 ninjas against whole alliance of ninjas? Really? are these people dumb or something? Didn't they hear about inverse ninja law?

[The Troubadour]

I'll give Kishimoto this, he knows how to use side characters.

You have got to be kidding me. When was the last time any side character in Naruto did anything meaningful at all? Hell, we spent something like 10 chapters reading about the Five Kage fighting Madara, only for Madara to first pull out the Super Susano'o of Doom (thereby rendering the whole fight pointless, if he could have just mopped the floor with them anytime he wanted) and then, to add insult to injury, defeat them offscreen.