Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[Delusion]

"I wanted to attack the m before they could start their endless blabbering."

Madara is such a troll.

[Traab]

....he should of died then? I...really don't recall anything happening back then that should of killed him.

He took a freaking femur sized arrow through his gut. And I think another through his shoulder. He took a slow death causing injury just for the chance to send his chakra back up the line kidomaru was using to control the telephone pole sized arrows and stopped his heart.

If you meant chouji, he took the three pills, the last of which is supposed to be fatal. It literally strip mines your entire body for every source of nutrients and converts it to chakra. Imagine if you lost all calcium, protein, and a dozen other essential vitamins and minerals all at once. The drain is so huge he must have lost 100 pounds in about 30 seconds. Thats. . . not healthy.

[Drolyt]

He took a freaking femur sized arrow through his gut. And I think another through his shoulder. He took a slow death causing injury just for the chance to send his chakra back up the line kidomaru was using to control the telephone pole sized arrows and stopped his heart.

Yeah, if you are talking logically he should have died, but his death wasn't really set up as a sacrifice the way Chouji's was. I never considered for a second he was really dead back then.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

"I wanted to attack the m before they could start their endless blabbering."

Madara is such a troll.

It's a shonen manga, Madara never had a chance.

[LaZodiac]

He took a freaking femur sized arrow through his gut. And I think another through his shoulder. He took a slow death causing injury just for the chance to send his chakra back up the line kidomaru was using to control the telephone pole sized arrows and stopped his heart.

If you meant chouji, he took the three pills, the last of which is supposed to be fatal. It literally strip mines your entire body for every source of nutrients and converts it to chakra. Imagine if you lost all calcium, protein, and a dozen other essential vitamins and minerals all at once. The drain is so huge he must have lost 100 pounds in about 30 seconds. Thats. . . not healthy.

I...completely don't remember that happening to Neiji. What healed him from that?

Also, I do think that since it happened so long ago, the impact of Neiji's death is still...impactfull. I'm also glad because this is a war and people SHOULD die, and Neiji is a huge fan favorite. If I may, comparing this to Byakuya's "death" in the recent Bleach chapter, where he didn't actually die despite getting a scene much like Neiji's here.

[Drolyt]

I...completely don't remember that happening to Neiji. What healed him from that?

Also, I do think that since it happened so long ago, the impact of Neiji's death is still...impactfull. I'm also glad because this is a war and people SHOULD die, and Neiji is a huge fan favorite. If I may, comparing this to Byakuya's "death" in the recent Bleach chapter, where he didn't actually die despite getting a scene much like Neiji's here.

And now I'm expecting Neji to survive.

[LaZodiac]

His little forehead swastika vanished, he's dead. And no Pain to bullcap revive everyone again.

[Traab]

I...completely don't remember that happening to Neiji. What healed him from that?

Also, I do think that since it happened so long ago, the impact of Neiji's death is still...impactfull. I'm also glad because this is a war and people SHOULD die, and Neiji is a huge fan favorite. If I may, comparing this to Byakuya's "death" in the recent Bleach chapter, where he didn't actually die despite getting a scene much like Neiji's here.

He was rushed to konoha where shizune was channeling some really complex looking seal based healing ritual with the help of a number of other medics while tsunade was busy finding a way to halt chojis body from eating itself to death.

[The Unborne]

His little forehead swastika vanished, he's dead. And no Pain to bullcap revive everyone again.

We still have a potential Rinne Tensei out of Obito.

[Soras Teva Gee]

He was rushed to konoha where shizune was channeling some really complex looking seal based healing ritual with the help of a number of other medics while tsunade was busy finding a way to halt chojis body from eating itself to death.

Given what we've seen out of medical nins yeah not that bad. I mean that very arc we had a supposedly permanent injury undone.

And I would say once you have actual flesh repairing methods traditional limits of "should have died" go completely out the window. As that's something medicine is still basically completely unable to do.

We still have a potential Rinne Tensei out of Obito.

Almost dare I say suspicious that it came up isn't it.

[LaZodiac]

He was rushed to konoha where shizune was channeling some really complex looking seal based healing ritual with the help of a number of other medics while tsunade was busy finding a way to halt chojis body from eating itself to death.

Yha, that actually seem's completely legit. No Deus Ex Machina there.

We still have a potential Rinne Tensei out of Obito.

I don't think Obito would do that. He's much to full of hate, I think. I'd also hope the mangaka is better then that.

[Traab]

Yha, that actually seem's completely legit. No Deus Ex Machina there.



I don't think Obito would do that. He's much to full of hate, I think. I'd also hope the mangaka is better then that.

The thing is, he was expecting to die. He took a mortal wound, and I dont think we had any sign of the medics that were chasing after them until later. When you consider the fact that a team of medics "just happened" to show up just in the nick of time to save those two, it seems a bit forced. If they had a medic on the team who had hung back to heal each of them after their fight, at least enough to stave off death, that wouldnt have felt like a deus. But to just have a team happen to show up in time when we had no real indication they were there beforehand?

[Ramza00]

I...completely don't remember that happening to Neiji. What healed him from that?

Also, I do think that since it happened so long ago, the impact of Neiji's death is still...impactfull. I'm also glad because this is a war and people SHOULD die, and Neiji is a huge fan favorite. If I may, comparing this to Byakuya's "death" in the recent Bleach chapter, where he didn't actually die despite getting a scene much like Neiji's here.

It was manga number 235 named "Mission Failure"
Shizune and a team of other healing ninjas healed the fist sized hole in Neji's chest. They performed a "ritual" where they used Neji's dead hair combined with chakra control to heal him.

Tsuande healed Choji, she was able to devise an antodite to the pills effects due to the use of Nara Clan manual that was extremely well researched on how the pills operated, this manual was lent to Tsuande by Shikaku Nara (Shikimaru's dad).

Given what we've seen out of medical nins yeah not that bad. I mean that very arc we had a supposedly permanent injury undone.

The hole in Neji's chest was a size of a fist and right where the heart should be. It was a serious injury that should have caused instant death, but since it was instant it should have still ended up with certain death.

[LaZodiac]

A group of your ninja's are chasing after a powerful enemy, why would you assume they DON'T send medics to make sure they're ok?

Also, looking at the wound Neiji got....it's not that bad. I mean yha, it's BAD, and full of poison(I think), but that's not where his heart is. It honestly looks like he just stabbed near the shoulder.

At any rate, I don't think it's a dues ex machina, and even if it IS, I don't think it takes away from the scene we just saw.

As an aside, going back to read this relatively early chapter is a big shock compared to how the art is now, holy crap XP

[Traab]

A group of your ninja's are chasing after a powerful enemy, why would you assume they DON'T send medics to make sure they're ok?

Also, looking at the wound Neiji got....it's not that bad. I mean yha, it's BAD, and full of poison, but that's not where his heart is. It honestly looks like he just stabbed near the shoulder.

At any rate, I don't think it's a dues ex machina, and even if it IS, I don't think it takes away from the scene we just saw.

As an aside, going back to read this relatively early chapter is a big shock compared to how the art is now, holy crap XP

Because the timing of things was bloody inconvenient. There is a reason the people sent to go get sasuke were genin with a single newbie chunin. Thats all that was available. You would think if they had medics to spare, they would have come along for the run. Tsunade MIGHT have mentioned sending backup when she was able, but there was no telling when where or who it would end up being. (I honestly dont remember if she did say that) So yeah, having a squad of medics show up out of the blue, unless we saw scenes of tsunade sending them off after the genin before the near death scenes, strikes me as deus ex machina because it literally comes out of nowhere.

*EDIT* And btw, that could have been used as some serious forebooding foreshadowing if done right. As chouji or neji is settling in to fight, we switch back to tsunade talking to a set of med nins and telling them to go catch up to the team and make sure they are ok. Phrased properly it could bring up a nice sense of fear for the outcome of the fights.

[LaZodiac]

I definitly agree, there should of been a scene establishing it. That I definitly agree with.

Also, decided to reread Neiji's fight with Spiderman Joe. The fight is absolutely perfectly in line with Neiji's death scene. It has againest that tree after winning his fight, thinking of how Naruto said "I won't give up, because you called me a loser!" and then it shows Neiji defeated, claiming he was defeated by his best Jutsu. And Naruto is all "It was my worst Jutsu. Now stop talking all this crap about fate and about how you suck. I know you don't, because you're a genius!"

And then we cut years later to Neiji's death and he sacrafices his life, and he says "It's because...you called me a genius" in a call back to Naruto's badass line before he beat Neiji in the exam and dear god it's awesome.

[Kato]

So, I'm a day late and the discussion is already away from the new chapter

Uhm... I liked the chapter. I liked Madara trolling, Obito showing his balls, and the sacrifice was nice as well.
Though... Okay guys, let me say this and than rant: I would have actually prefered Hinata going down there. Don't get me wrong, I love Hinata, really, and yeah, she already tried her heroic sacrifice back in the Konoha invasion arc but if she really went down then and there protecting Naruto and died in his arms or something maybe or maybe not finally telling him her feelings AGAIN Kishi could not have /(=%&§$&)%()= ignored it again and would have to eff-ing do something with it at some point!
This way... meh, I liked Neji well enough but I'll say it didn't really got me teary eyed or anything because he hasn't done much meaningful for quite a while. Yeah, way back he had his big arc or part of an ary but now he's really just another rookie and just because Kishi kills people off one after another while it is somehow nice that there are actually casualties... I don't know, it doesn't do what I think it should do for me.


Blablabla... I can actually see Obito at some point in the future going Pain on us... And if that happens it will spoil the ending, however good or bad it might be, it will make it worse. I'm not sure if Kishi will step that low, but it's not out of the question.


Regarding the Sasuke Retrieval arc... I'll say: Yeah, Neji should have died there and then. it wasn't a Deus Ex but it was... it would have been more reasonable and probably more impactful on me back then. Chouji living I can do with.

[ZeroNumerous]

Also, looking at the wound Neiji got....it's not that bad. I mean yha, it's BAD, and full of poison(I think), but that's not where his heart is. It honestly looks like he just stabbed near the shoulder.

At any rate, I don't think it's a dues ex machina, and even if it IS, I don't think it takes away from the scene we just saw.

"It's not that bad" doesn't work with human injuries. The fist-sized hole in Neji's chest intersects nicely with his subclavian vein, and means Neji should have bled to death in the span of less than a minute. Even if he didn't bleed to death, the shock of the injury should have been enough to stop his heart. Even if shock didn't kill him, and he didn't bleed out before the medical ninja go there, he should have bled out by the time the medical ninja got him back to Konoha unless they performed field surgery to prevent him from dying.

So the perfect storm lines up for Neji's survival: He doesn't die from Shock, he doesn't die from blood loss, and the medical ninja get there just in time to save him from eventually bleeding out. That's my complaint as far as it being a Deus Ex. The Writer didn't want him to die, and didn't think about the possibilities of his injury and just said "He didn't die".

And yes, I feel it detracts greatly from this scene, because I've already seen Neji die once. His second death? Whatever, he'll be Deus Ex'd again as soon as Obito gets Naruto'd into being a good guy.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, dear, Kishi is going down the tired and uncreative route of "kill most everyone off because it's the end" is he? That is never interesting or clever, no matter how many authors and screenwriters do it, and it always smacks far more of "I'mma taking my ball home with me" than any especially dramatic impact to me.

(Well, given the amount of people he's "killed" before, I'm not gonna kvetch too much too soon, though.)

[The Troubadour]

So, in chapter 610, Obito wanted to start the Infinite Tsukuyomi right away and Madara was the one who wanted to play with the heroes. Now, when Obito could just vanish into Kamui's dimension and Madara could simply wipe everyone out, Obito is the one who doesn't want to simply end everything right away?

...Seriously, in four issues the guy's already done an 180? Damn, that's bad writing.

[Kato]

Not exactly... While Obito claims Madara is just like a kid, Madara has a point about getting rid of the enemies or they might interfer.
Why it is not possible for Obito to just vanish for a moment and Madara annihilate the oint forces now... I don't know. Possibly the Jubi might break free of their control, because, you know, both already need to use their Hashirama powers to control it. Or just Plot.
I don't think Obito just wants to play around. He wants to teach them despait which... really doesn't make any more sense but hey.


You know, it puts Obito in an even worse position if he needs to use the Ressurection Technique to finish their plan... He doesn't really get anthing out of it anymore.

[Drolyt]

"It's not that bad" doesn't work with human injuries.

Are you reading a different manga? Seriously, just because a real person would die doesn't mean anything. I think this is a case where you having better medical knowledge than Kishi causes him to send you mixed signals when he injures his characters.

[Somewhere]

Hmm, a complaint I'm seeing elsewhere (particularly, at Arlong Park ) is the lack of buildup toward this. Combined with Neji's relative lack of appearances in a long time, I'm seeing some reactions of 'meh'.
And predictions of 'bah, Obito will just Pain-res everybody anyway'.
I don't recall seeing explicit mention of Obito having that ability yet; did that get specifically noted within the past chapter or two?

Oh, dear, Kishi is going down the tired and uncreative route of "kill most everyone off because it's the end" is he? That is never interesting or clever, no matter how many authors and screenwriters do it, and it always smacks far more of "I'mma taking my ball home with me" than any especially dramatic impact to me.

(Well, given the amount of people he's "killed" before, I'm not gonna kvetch too much too soon, though.)

Guess you're not a fan of Kill-em-all Tomino, then?

[Socratov]

Hmm, a complaint I'm seeing elsewhere (particularly, at Arlong Park ) is the lack of buildup toward this. Combined with Neji's relative lack of appearances in a long time, I'm seeing some reactions of 'meh'.
And predictions of 'bah, Obito will just Pain-res everybody anyway'.
I don't recall seeing explicit mention of Obito having that ability yet; did that get specifically noted within the past chapter or two?



Guess you're not a fan of Kill-em-all Tomino, then?

well, not only did he show it in conversation last chapter, but he has the rinnegan, through which he can summon the thingie and indeed do a painlike giving everybody a get-out-of-death-free card

[Aotrs Commander]

Guess you're not a fan of Kill-em-all Tomino, then?

I had to look who that was up. And the short answer is yes, and to make a mental note never to watch anything he's written. I loathe with the ice-cold anti-fire of a thousand frozen suns that particular literary "device."

[Morph Bark]

Why it is not possible for Obito to just vanish for a moment and Madara annihilate the oint forces now... I don't know. Possibly the Jubi might break free of their control, because, you know, both already need to use their Hashirama powers to control it.

I was thinking it was that reason. I thought it could also be possible for Obito to want at least a large number of ninjas alive to be a part of his dream world, but that just sounds odd in my head. Plus, if they didn't need both of them to control the Juubi, they might as well just have let one of them do it and let the other go around doing other stuff. Madara most likely, since he has more large-scale jutsu.

Hmm, a complaint I'm seeing elsewhere (particularly, at Arlong Park ) is the lack of buildup toward this. Combined with Neji's relative lack of appearances in a long time, I'm seeing some reactions of 'meh'.

Prettymuch, yeah.

[ZeroNumerous]

I had to look who that was up. And the short answer is yes, and to make a mental note never to watch anything he's written. I loathe with the ice-cold anti-fire of a thousand frozen suns that particular literary "device."

Tomino doesn't kill everyone because it's the end of the show. He kills everyone mid-way through the series to show that War is Hell. He kills beloved and popular characters because sometimes in war someone you care about dies.

And frankly, to discount anime of a quality that Naruto could never hope to match simply because you dislike watching your precious characters die? That's silly.

Seriously, just because a real person would die doesn't mean anything.

Yes, it does mean something. Because people in Naruto have been shown to be analogous to actual humans. Thus, would die when injured in ways that actual humans could be killed.

[lord_khaine]

Yes, it does mean something. Because people in Naruto have been shown to be analogous to actual humans. Thus, would die when injured in ways that actual humans could be killed.

Doesnt mean much when the medical technology in Naruto is much better than ours, what might be certain death in our wold could very well be a close call if there is a skilled medical ninja around.

[Aotrs Commander]

Tomino doesn't kill everyone because it's the end of the show. He kills everyone mid-way through the series to show that War is Hell.

If I want to read something about the tragedy and the horrors of war, I will - and do - go read military history.

I am not, nor have I ever been, interested in being preached at in my entertainment.

Nor does anything I've seed/read/heard about from Gundam make me interested in watching it at the best of times; I don't really like the manga/anime-style giant robot genera as a whole, to be honest (which is perhaps odd from a Transformers fan, but I like neither the designs nor the way they move).

So you may call it as silly as you like, but I have no more intention of watching Gundam that of reading a Song of Fire and Ice or Marvel's Ultimate series (and yes, I did sling the latter into the same sentence as the former; thought the other works may be less intrinsically stupid, my disinterest is equal).

"Quality" is a very subjective function: I have seen both Akira and Ghost in the Shell (the latter I remember absolutely nothing of, so little did it leave it's mark), and from my perspective of "don't care how technically polished or thematically clever something is if it doesn't entertain me", they both come distantly far behind Pokemon, to say nothing or Rock Lee's Srpingtime of Youth, let alone Naruto itself (potentially crappy ending revision status pending...)

[Somewhere]

Regarding the Sasuke Retrieval arc thing, someone at Arlong Park had a theory that I found interesting:

Kishi fully intended to kill off Neji and Chouji there. But then the editors stepped in and told him that he couldn't. And that's when Kishi stopped caring.