Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[Kato]

Sure, lets put aside the way the technique works, then leap to wild conclusions that fly in the face of how the technique works. You know, the technique animating said zombie? The technique you know about, and know exactly how it works? The one that you've encountered before, and have detailed information about?

Because, you know, they have that. They've experienced the technique before. They know for a fact that the zombies bodies act independently of their will.

Who did? Probably none of the random-nin around. And it's been a while but from what I recall the zombies were an unexpected part of the enemy forces so there probably was no Edo Tensei 101 by... who fought Edo Tensei zombies before? Apart from the dead Sarutobi?

(Unrelated to the established abilities of the technique for a sensible person it should make no sense that a person would be unable to control any of his body apart from the parts that you need to speak. It. Makes. No. Sense. Heck, I wouldn't believe it, to be honest and ignore anything an Edo zombie said unless I knew this was a story where stuff doesn't have to make sense.)

The Second Mizukage never tries to kill anybody. We see him later surrounded by a bunch of bodies, but no blood is shown and he has no weapons in hand. While it's possible that he killed everyone it's rather unlikely that he did so with just his bare hands, and there would definitely be blood around them.

So... if he isn't trying to attack/kill anyone, what's his purpose? If he is a zombie without control over his body what would the enemy gain by not having him attack you? Why would there be a bunch of bodies if he didn't do anything?

In short: Your argument has a faulty premise, because it presupposes that the ninja blatantly disregard knowledge they already have concerning the technique animating the zombies.

See above.

It further stands on shaky ground concerning whether the Second Mizukage ever actually kills anyone, because the only person he actively tries to kill is the Third Tsuchikage.

Which just makes Kishi's writing or Kabuto's actions more stupid. Why would he not try to fight seriously if Mizukage was unable to control his body? What is he there for if not to kill enemy shinobi?

Finally, the argument is just plain ludicrous. Throwing things at a mirage instead of moving around trying to catch the giant clam in the act? Because you have nothing better to do? That's just silly.

Well, those are two different points. 1) Should they trust anything Mizukage says due to knowledge they do not have? 2) Should they attack a mirage if they have no reliable/clear other target?
Their attacks on the clam don't do any good either once they stop attacking the illusion, iirc. So all the random-nin are just wasted effort anyway...


Okay, I hope that's that for this discussion... new chapter!

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Of course, more flashbacks!
Long story short: "Screw our friendship, you killed my brother! I want either your life or your brothers!" Yeah, Madara, real role model there. I guess crazy Uchiha brain disease is really bad...
I almost wish Tobirama would have just stabbed him... but it seems Hashirama is going to give in. From what history tells us.

[LaZodiac]

New Chapter!:

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Well, I guess we know why the first hokage killed himself when creating the village with his huge tree creating technique. I think so, anyway.

[lord_khaine]

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But he didnt, because he still have a final fight with Madara at a later point.

[KnightDisciple]

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But he didnt, because he still have a final fight with Madara at a later point.

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I thought that was the fight we just saw the aftermath of?

[Traab]

I have to ask, because I am very curious. Why do you bother to put things in spoilers, only to be incredibly vague about what you are saying anyways? I mean, the spoiler tags are there for you to explicitly spell things out. Its just, doing this,

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oh so THATS what it means!

Is pointless, since even reading the spoiler you have no idea what I am talking about.

[Somewhere]

Kishi's ToC comment for issue #17:
"Tsukawanakunatta terebi no rimokon ga sanran ****ete doregadore da ka... seiriseiton daiji!"

Kishi's saying something about remote controls for unused televisions being scattered about and wondering which is for which... and the importance of keeping things tidy/in order.

[Silverraptor]

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Whats this? Meeting a reasonable request with a completely unreasonable request? Guess that's why he's Uchia, I guess.

[Kato]

I have to ask, because I am very curious. Why do you bother to put things in spoilers, only to be incredibly vague about what you are saying anyways?

Is that a general statement or...?

I also got the impression the last scene was after the VotE battle. Though, of course this doesn't make much sense from what we were told about that battle before but...

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Well, it kind of does. It explains why they say Hashirama won but Madara was the one to survive. It doesn't explain why nobody knows the ******** story, though.

[Traab]

Is that a general statement or...?

I also got the impression the last scene was after the VotE battle. Though, of course this doesn't make much sense from what we were told about that battle before but...

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Well, it kind of does. It explains why they say Hashirama won but Madara was the one to survive. It doesn't explain why nobody knows the ******** story, though.

Its mostly general, its just something that has often irked me on this thread. I like the naruto story, but I dont read manga, so this is how I get my updates on the high points of what happened. So when I see a spoiler tag I get gleeful expecting some juicy details, only to read something like,

Well, I guess we know why the first hokage killed himself when creating the village with his huge tree creating technique. I think so, anyway.

Seriously, I have no idea what this means, and im pretty sure only people who have also read the latest issue of the manga will get it. Saying the equivalent of, "I cant believe that happened!" doesnt need to be spoilered as it doesnt ruin anything. Had Zodiac included the actual REASON why the first hokage killed himself it would have needed a spoiler, but as of his post we just know we learn something about his massive technique this chapter. I am not picking on him in particular, a lot of posters do that, and honestly it happens in a lot of different threads, its just something that irks me. Call it a pet peeve.

[darksolitaire]

But we know that both Hashirama and Tobirama were alive after the village was founded, so he obviously didn't kill himself right after the battle.

[TheFallenOne]

Seriously, I have no idea what this means

That's because it doesn't make the least amount of sense. Just disregard it.

[LaZodiac]

But we know that both Hashirama and Tobirama were alive after the village was founded, so he obviously didn't kill himself right after the battle.

I thought using that tree tecnique to create the village killed him, though. Ah well, I must of just forgotten, is all.

[VanBuren]

Its mostly general, its just something that has often irked me on this thread. I like the naruto story, but I dont read manga, so this is how I get my updates on the high points of what happened. So when I see a spoiler tag I get gleeful expecting some juicy details, only to read something like,

Seriously, I have no idea what this means, and im pretty sure only people who have also read the latest issue of the manga will get it. Saying the equivalent of, "I cant believe that happened!" doesnt need to be spoilered as it doesnt ruin anything. Had Zodiac included the actual REASON why the first hokage killed himself it would have needed a spoiler, but as of his post we just know we learn something about his massive technique this chapter. I am not picking on him in particular, a lot of posters do that, and honestly it happens in a lot of different threads, its just something that irks me. Call it a pet peeve.

It's generally assumed that if you open the spoiler than you've already read the chapter. Frankly, if he hadn't spoilered what he said there are people who would have rather not seen the out of a spoiler tag.

[Silverraptor]

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*Facepalm*

Please tell me... they are not about to use the Impure Ressurection Jutsu to bring back Madara's brother somehow...

[Morph Bark]

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*Facepalm*

Please tell me... they are not about to use the Impure Ressurection Jutsu to bring back Madara's brother somehow...

Oh, gods no, I hope not.

[ZeroNumerous]

Who did? Probably none of the random-nin around. And it's been a while but from what I recall the zombies were an unexpected part of the enemy forces so there probably was no Edo Tensei 101 by... who fought Edo Tensei zombies before? Apart from the dead Sarutobi?

Uh, the entirety of Konoha. It originated there, and they know its weaknesses and strengths.

How about the Tsuchikage who had fought Deidara when Kabuto tried to kidnap Naruto from the turtle?

Or the entire conflict between the other ninja zombies who appeared before the Kage?

If you want to blatantly disregard events that happened in the manga, then feel free, but if you do then please don't bother continuing. We can't have a discussion if you're ignoring substantial events that happened prior to the appearance of the zombie Kage.

The allied army had already fought and successfully defeated several ninja zombies, many of whom expressly helped the army defeat them. It would be ludicrous to assume that they did not share information.

Which makes them incredibly stupid for disregarding the advice of this one specific zombie.

(Unrelated to the established abilities of the technique for a sensible person it should make no sense that a person would be unable to control any of his body apart from the parts that you need to speak. It. Makes. No. Sense. Heck, I wouldn't believe it, to be honest and ignore anything an Edo zombie said unless I knew this was a story where stuff doesn't have to make sense.)

It makes plenty of sense. They're free to move their bodies, but their bodies react unconsciously to enemies. Just like how you have to train yourself not to close your eyes when something gets close to your eyeball. Kabuto's control over them is not absolute, that's why they still have their personalities, so he just has them reacting to attackers.

So... if he isn't trying to attack/kill anyone, what's his purpose? If he is a zombie without control over his body what would the enemy gain by not having him attack you? Why would there be a bunch of bodies if he didn't do anything?

Why wouldn't there be a bunch of blood if he killed them? Even the clone of the Third Tsuchikage "bled" when it died.

His purpose is obvious: Delay the enemy so shinobi like the Second Tsuchikage can wipe out the entire army, or cover up the Third Raikage with mirages so he can go around killing ninja to his heart's content. Some critical thinking makes it trivial to figure out what his body was programmed to do.

Which just makes Kishi's writing or Kabuto's actions more stupid. Why would he not try to fight seriously if Mizukage was unable to control his body? What is he there for if not to kill enemy shinobi?

Now that I have no answer for, because it would have been easy to just have the Second Mizukage just kill all the idiots present.

Well, those are two different points. 1) Should they trust anything Mizukage says due to knowledge they do not have? 2) Should they attack a mirage if they have no reliable/clear other target?
Their attacks on the clam don't do any good either once they stop attacking the illusion, iirc. So all the random-nin are just wasted effort anyway...

On the first point: You're just ignoring things that happened in order to support your argument. They did have that knowledge, because the army had already encountered zombie ninjas, so any question of trusting the Mizukage or not is a question of "Do I feel like wasting my time and potentially getting killed in a combat situation?" If yes: Ignore the Mizukage. If no: Take his advice.

On the second point: That shouldn't even be a question. You know it won't work, so why waste the energy?

[Morph Bark]

Uh, the entirety of Konoha. It originated there, and they know its weaknesses and strengths.

Um, no. Edo Tensei was and is a secret and forbidden technique, which by its definition is known by very few people. Those who knew the Second Hokage well probably knew about it, but most of those people are now old, many of them being retired, and most of the shinobi from back then probably didn't live to see old age.

[Kato]

Uh, the entirety of Konoha. It originated there, and they know its weaknesses and strengths.

What Morph said.

Okay, I forgot about Zombie Deidara. It's been a while but isn't all of this happening pretty much at once or within a much shorter time than would be necessary to educate everyone about the zombies from what little they know?

It makes plenty of sense. They're free to move their bodies, but their bodies react unconsciously to enemies. Just like how you have to train yourself not to close your eyes when something gets close to your eyeball. Kabuto's control over them is not absolute, that's why they still have their personalities, so he just has them reacting to attackers.

Sorry, but there's quite a difference between a reflex to shield your eye and strategic use of jutsu in battle. Kabuto is clearly in control of their actions to a certain extent and there should be no difference between controlling an arm, a leg, whatever organ molds chakra and your tongue and vocal chords. Sure, they can have their personalities for all I care (be free to think whatever they want) but they shouldn't be able to talk freely if Kabuto doesn't want them to. (e.g. give away strategies)

His purpose is obvious: Delay the enemy so shinobi like the Second Tsuchikage can wipe out the entire army, or cover up the Third Raikage with mirages so he can go around killing ninja to his heart's content. Some critical thinking makes it trivial to figure out what his body was programmed to do.

[...]

Now that I have no answer for, because it would have been easy to just have the Second Mizukage just kill all the idiots present.

That was my point. Why not kill the guys you are supossed to delay if he obviously should have the means to do so?

On the first point: You're just ignoring things that happened in order to support your argument. They did have that knowledge, because the army had already encountered zombie ninjas, so any question of trusting the Mizukage or not is a question of "Do I feel like wasting my time and potentially getting killed in a combat situation?" If yes: Ignore the Mizukage. If no: Take his advice.

Okay, let's for the sake of the argument assume they have all information an in-universe random-nin should have about Edo Tensei. (Meaning, everything that can be derived from fighting them whil not being actually able to perform the jutsu)
There are still reasons not to trust them. Kabuto could be able to choose whether he controls their voice or not and could in this situation decide to control it to deceive them. Or the mizukage could just be a **** and lie to them to mislead them on his free will.

On the second point: That shouldn't even be a question. You know it won't work, so why waste the energy?

Because if I was Mizukage/Kabuto the moment they stopped attacking my double I'd stop using a mirage and actually put myself there and start attacking with my real body doing real damage because nobody bothers paying attention to me anymore. It's not a valid reason not to attack him and the clam but it's a reason not just to ignore him.

[Aotrs Commander]

So I started on volume 12 of Shippuden. There was a bit of trepidation involved, since Will of Fire was so utterly stupendous that nothing was going to compare.

I thought "now where were we... oh yeah, tedium" as I listened for twenty minutes to "Madara" spieling more nonsense (which with the more recent "twists" looks increasingly silly) and the show trying to drum up support for Itachi. And then for Sasuke to immediately go "screw village over family, I'll just totally ignore everything that my brother was (ineptly) trying to do mwahahaha destroy everything¹!" (I'm sort of glad Yuri Lowenthal is pretty ingrained as Sasuke by now, otherwise I'd be totally hearing Linkara's Superboy Prime voice every time he speaks...)

Bad sign Shippuden, when I'm going "I wish this main plot would hurry and get out the way so we can get back to fillers!"



And then Killer Bee showed up and everything was alright again.

Not only was he hilarious (while simultaneously hilariously bad and hilariously badass) - I genuinely wasn't expecting that, even from the things I've picked from the fandom - but he almost killed Sasuke twice in his first appearance. That makes him ooo-kay in my book!

Seriously, though, the first time he stuck Sasuke full of swords, I was like "yeah," *eyeglow roll* "and it's a shadow clone or something, it's always a shadow clone. Wait for it, any second now it's just going to *poof* and... annnnd... annnnd it's not a shadow clone! Dude just skewered real Sasuke! Bwahahahahahaha!"

Seeing Sasuke's smug superior attitude slip again and see him metaphorically crap himself a couple of times? Priceless.

(Look the show's been following my least favourite person in the entire series for like, a box set and a half or somethin', I'm allowed to laugh and point when bad things happen to him! The show ain't called Sasuke, after all!)



And next episode is filler again! Huzzah!

...

...

...

Naruto really has slipped downhill a bit since it started, hasn't it?

(Mind you, I liked a few of the pre-time skip fillers too, so there's that.)



¹And people say the filler and movie villains have poor motivations...!

[Ramza00]

Aww the killer b vs sasuke fight. I just love the look of fear in Sasuke, after being stabbed by four swords, thrown across the battlefield, and watching in slow motion the death blow about to hit him and there is nothing he can do about. Sasuke's eye (with the sharingan) coming to the realization that he is GOING TO DIE.

I also love at the beginning of the fight when they were feeling each other out, Sasuke kicked Killer B and B didn't flench, and then he just brings out his notepad and writes this

the pain in my chest baby
gotta be from your kick yo
so you aint gonna run away you ****, come on
my kickin is gonna make you groan ya prick
somthing somthing times tickin yeaa

[LaZodiac]

Naruto has slipped down a bit, yha. Unfortunately for Killer Bee, he technicaly lost that fight since simply having that piece of him allowed them to awaken the ten tails in the most current arc.

HOWEVER! Killer Bee gets the moral victory. He's the people's champion. He's literally the best character in Naruto, in my personal opinion. Who cares if the world's a gigantic, grimdark war with serious topics. I GOTTA GET MY RAP ON! BROFIST TO CONNECT OUR SOOOOULS AS ONE! BROFIST YOUR TAILED BEAST!

Killer Bee is basically the greatest.

[Ramza00]

Thanks to Aotrs Commander reminding me how awesome killer b is, I made a gif of the killer b vs sasuke fight (you might want to open the link in another tab)

Killer B showing Sasuke who is Boss

[Somewhere]

With Rock Lee having his adventures in the spinoff instead of here, yea, Killer Bee would be the best remaining character getting time.

Viz's translation of Kishi's ToC comment:
"I have all these useless TV remotes, and I can't tell which one does what anymore. Being organized is a virtue!"

Just a couple of quick notes for this chapter's comparison:
Huh, Panda didn't translate the chapter title. The 'aiko' here means draw/tie (as in to become even).

Panda says Uchiha Dajima.... it's supposed to be Tajima. It's a weird little error to make; it means that Panda was seeing ten-ten/dakuten marks for the Ta when actually there aren't any there. Great, now I can't even fully trust their vision.

---

So, apparently finding out that Hashirama's a Senju was sufficient enough for Madara to internally DESPAIR enough to trigger the GUSH OF CHAKRA that causes the Sharingan mutation. Madara, are you a yandere for Hashirama?
...
"Either kill your brother, or yourself, for my trust"
...
*fast forward to present*
"You all suck. Except for Hashirama."
His trash talking in the present day takes on new undertones.

[LaZodiac]

Madara has been upgraded to Nohman level yandere. "COME BACK DINGO I LIKE YOU" *shots him to death*

Also, I'm glad you agree with the Killer Bee thing. He's just all around fantastic. I mean yha he killed Kisame and he's kind of one of my favorite characters, but Kisame's sword fell in love with Killer Bee, it's hard not to be ok with what happened.

[Olinser]

Oh, gods no, I hope not.

Unfortunately,

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Given that Madara had enough knowledge of the technique to know it's weaknesses and how to overcome it, I think it's a foregone conclusion that SOMEBODY is going to get brought back, and Madara is going to have at least some contact with them. Izuna is the most likely candidate - although it is totally possible that Hashirama is going to kill himself to bring the Uchiha to the Leaf - and Tobirama is going to use Edo Tensei to bring him back.

[Olinser]

Unfortunately,

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Given that Madara had enough knowledge of the technique to know it's weaknesses and how to overcome it, I think it's a foregone conclusion that SOMEBODY is going to get brought back, and Madara is going to have at least some contact with them. Izuna is the most likely candidate - although it is totally possible that Hashirama is going to kill himself to bring the Uchiha to the Leaf - and Tobirama is going to use Edo Tensei to bring him back.

Though, to be blunt, I don't believe for a second Izuna is ACTUALLY dead. I mean he is supposedly a major reason behind Madara (and the Uchiha's) beef with Konoha, and yet every single character (and flashback) talking about him just says 'and he died later' (off panel). No, there's something else here, the author just hasn't seen fit to reveal it yet.

[Ramza00]

The most entertaining way this series could end is a rematch of sasuke vs killer b. Somehow Killer B performs edo tensai bringing back kisame (via rapping) who promptly kicks sasuke's ass

[Kato]

The most entertaining way this series could end is a rematch of sasuke vs killer b. Somehow Killer B performs edo tensai bringing back kisame (via rapping) who promptly kicks sasuke's ass

That would certainly be... interesting....

New chapter, chaps.

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Well, the beginning wasn't that unexpected... and somehow it seems like Tobirama is the reason behind all the hate, except he kind of has a point if the Uchiha are actually predestined to go crazy at some point. It's still no way to treat other people.

I guess Madara at that point decided to be the evil in the hope of somehow helping the Uchiha this way...?

[Frozen_Feet]

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My theory is that Madara simply became aware of hs legacy, and drew his own conclusions. The way he speaks suggests he considers himself and Hashirama as essentially gods or supermen, so far above others that they could treat them as mere playthings.

[Cero Oscura]

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I forget. Were there any redeeming qualities to the Uchiha? Because this chapter continues to reinforce that no matter how nice you are to them, they will end up wanting to destroy your village and kill all your friends.