LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

[Castaras]

I think a more useful solution, rather than disassociating Gender Identity Disorder from the "disorder" part, is to work on mental health acceptance. There is still huge stigma about having mental health problems or illnesses. I think the people who feel GID shouldn't be a "disorder" are thinking "Well, there's nothing _wrong_ with me/us/them, it's just the way I/we/they are". But there's nothing "wrong" (as in bad) about any mental health illness, but we're taught there is something "wrong" with someone who suffers from one. Take away that social conditioning, and the GID problem resolves itself. Of course, that's not easy, but we're definitely making progress!

Preeeetty much. I have aspergers, it's a mental disorder, but doesn't mean there's something "wrong" with me. Just means I'm different. Luckily when I explain this to people they either know enough or don't give a @"£$ anyway.

[SiuiS]

The current version of the APA association's DSM manual still calls it a mental illness.

Nuts.

Just to be clear, the definition of a mental illness in the DSM is "a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture." I think most people would agree that being Trans and/or having GID is a source of personal distress, and is not considered normal development. There isn't (or rather, should be) no shame in it being considered a disorder.

There shouldn't be, no. However, colloquial, a mental disorder means you're mentally deficient/insufficient. You are less than a normal person. Until that changes, "Mental Disorder" is a sort of social death-sentence if people find out you're disordered before they really get to know you. And it's not helpe by people using mental disorders as a shield from repercussion. the number of times I've heard "You can't get mad at me for being a prick, I have ADD/Asperger's/bipolar disorder/etc.!" is beyond easy count.

Cosplay is a form of performance, pageantry, and presentation as much as it is how one decided to dress one's self when one got up in the morning as I recall. To imply that it is immoral and oppression that the audience has a place, as you seem to be doing here, rather misses the point of the exercise as I understand it.

Okay, see, this is what leads to people getting disproportionately mad at me (as opposed to proportionately, which admittedly happens almost as often).

I said that whether YOU are cismale, transfemale, etc. is irrelevant from the point of view of the audience without any actual context. The audience will see either male or female, and presentation/identification of the self isn't taken into account. I am specifically saying that the audience's perception is ALL that matters. To the audience, a transwoman with no process of transitioning who dresses in female clothes is a cross dressing man. I am frankly baffled that you somehow got the exact opposite of what I meant out of that.

For clarification, I'm using emphasis out of a desire for emphasis, and am not angry whatsoever. I am just ... I don't even know. Very confused and exasperated that things that make sense in phsyically present vocal phonation seem to be confused insane gibberish when rendered in text. It's disheartening.

Huuhn, those are terrible terrible by-products of modern culture. ;_;

Besides, everybody knows that it is feminists who eat babies. Atheists dance naked around the virgin sacrifices. And as a feminist atheist, I dance baby-shaped around the sacrificed nakedness! Television told me so! ^w^

Sorry, really really sorry. That was a terrible joke. m(_ _)m

Sacrificed nakedness?
*files that away as a WoD plot*
Eeeexcellent.

I agree on the disorder part, although I think they might need to chance the part about non-conforming behaviour associated with distress or disability being an illness. It is a poor word choice for the purposes of avoiding stigma.

Unchallenged assumptions...
I recently noted that for some reason, whenever anyone in media panics, they always remark on "The walls closing in!". Do people subconsciously conflate claustrophobia with anxiety? Is claustrophobia not its own phobia but merely a symptom of being weak, panicked and womanly*?

Similar, is being easily distressed only a "disorder" because it's a weakness o the male archetype? When I broke my hand I hit anxiety hard, because it was a permanent shift of my possibilities in life. I was derided b people for being so weak (seemed reasonable to me), and there were intimations they would expect this behavior from a girl but I should know better.

Is this just that male privelege stuff, so deeply ingrained it's almost untecognizable?

I propose that for the awareness of disorders-are-not-horrible, we institute a day of disorderly bookshelvesshows of our own disorderlyness! X3

But a perfectly ordered bookshelf could be disorderly, if you're obsessive and/or compulsive enough!

I think it would be more correct to call Gender Dysphoria an illness, because that causes clinically significant distress in certain people, and it does so regardless of whether the culture is transphobic or not (AFAIK). And that would probably be called a mental disorder - sounds like an anxiety disorder.

What's so horrible about having it as a mental disorder?

Can someone explain to me why that is?

[Trigger, probably]

Spoiler

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A mental disorder is viewed as a hardware or software defect. You're not really a woman, you're not really soul crushingly sad, you're not really seeing things. You're just broken. You should sit in the Repairs bin until science can fix you and you can be a regular, good, normal human wing again instead of your currently broken self. The best you can look forward to is being repaired, because you're defective – your defect isn't a Ali's thing on its own and indulging it is sick, like letting someone define themselves by a broken bone and constantly preventing it from healing, because twy were told it's a valid part of who they are or a "lifestyle".

Anything non-normative is a flaw to purged so there hula people can he on with their lives. Society says we have to live with these defectives, but we don't have to consider them people. Not really. Avoid any legal ramifications and just sort of ignore and patronize them until they go away.

[Selpharia]

[Trigger, probably]

Spoiler

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A mental disorder is viewed as a hardware or software defect. You're not really a woman, you're not really soul crushingly sad, you're not really seeing things. You're just broken. You should sit in the Repairs bin until science can fix you and you can be a regular, good, normal human wing again instead of your currently broken self. The best you can look forward to is being repaired, because you're defective – your defect isn't a Ali's thing on its own and indulging it is sick, like letting someone define themselves by a broken bone and constantly preventing it from healing, because twy were told it's a valid part of who they are or a "lifestyle".

Anything non-normative is a flaw to purged so there hula people can he on with their lives. Society says we have to live with these defectives, but we don't have to consider them people. Not really. Avoid any legal ramifications and just sort of ignore and patronize them until they go away.

This is spot on (and I should really listen to trigger warnings on occasion, Nngh.

As for panic attacks, I suspect there's a bit of the machismo angle to it, but my personal thought is that it's more that being "easily distressed" is called a disorder because it interferes with people's everyday life (Which it obviously does) Now, I think that the expectation that a "normal" person should always be able to suppress all the anxiety that they feel at all times is an artifact of male privilege and outmoded gender norms. I suppose it's more of the standard for "normal" being too high than there not actually being a problem. I don't know if this is substantively different than what Siuis said though. The weak=bad part of it is I think in large part as you suggest though.

I said that whether YOU are cismale, transfemale, etc. is irrelevant from the point of view of the audience without any actual context. The audience will see either male or female, and presentation/identification of the self isn't taken into account. I am specifically saying that the audience's perception is ALL that matters. To the audience, a transwoman with no process of transitioning who dresses in female clothes is a cross dressing man. I am frankly baffled that you somehow got the exact opposite of what I meant out of that.

I don't know about others, but it was fairly clear to me what you meant here was in reference not to an objective valuation, but to a general societal way of thinking about gender presentation.

Oh and *hugs* for everyone who I've missed over the last week. Stupid responsibilities.

~Laura

[Lix Lorn]

Can someone explain to me why that is?

Well-

[Trigger, probably]

Spoiler

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A mental disorder is viewed as a hardware or software defect. You're not really a woman, you're not really soul crushingly sad, you're not really seeing things. You're just broken. You should sit in the Repairs bin until science can fix you and you can be a regular, good, normal human wing again instead of your currently broken self. The best you can look forward to is being repaired, because you're defective – your defect isn't a Ali's thing on its own and indulging it is sick, like letting someone define themselves by a broken bone and constantly preventing it from healing, because twy were told it's a valid part of who they are or a "lifestyle".

Anything non-normative is a flaw to purged so there hula people can he on with their lives. Society says we have to live with these defectives, but we don't have to consider them people. Not really. Avoid any legal ramifications and just sort of ignore and patronize them until they go away.

...that, although I would have used far less words.

[Astrella]

Congrats Golly!

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Re: Disorders. There is nothing wrong with it but the medical sector can't ignore the social influence of what they say. Society has a huge negative bias towards people who aren't neurotypical or in any way seen to be deviating from the "human norm". Specifically with regards to trans people making 'gender dysphoria' the problem sends a clear message that there is nothing wrong with being trans. And even if you want to throw that aside it's still a case of it just being more medically correct; since for example a trans* person who's happy with their transition wouldn't really be suffering much more from it, yes? (assuming no bigotry in the evironment etc...) You can't ignore the social weight of words. (Same reason I really dislike the word normal; in a vacuum it's not a harmful word but it's so often used to elevate certain things above others that you can't detach that from it.)

-----

Lena's linkies:

A nice story about a trans women travelling to Korea to meet her birth mother.

Natalie wrote something interesting to think about with regards to Transgender Awareness Week.

[noparlpf]

I'm fairly certain "normal" just means "perpendicular to". That's the only meaningful definition I can think of off the top of my head, anyway.

[SiuiS]

Thank you, Selphie. I've been having a bad month as far as meaningful communication goes.

although I would have used far less words.

I get that a lot

I'm fairly certain "normal" just means "perpendicular to". That's the only meaningful definition I can think of off the top of my head, anyway.

I use 'an artificial construct made from averaging assumed characteristics'.

[noparlpf]

I use 'an artificial construct made from averaging assumed characteristics'.

I said "meaningful". Artificial definitions derived from statistical averages are largely meaningless. Unfortunately society subscribes to those artificial ideals of "normality" instead of just learning maths and physics where "normal" is useful.

[Coidzor]

I said "meaningful". Artificial definitions derived from statistical averages are largely meaningless. Unfortunately society subscribes to those artificial ideals of "normality" instead of just learning maths and physics where "normal" is useful.

Well, it's a bit of an existential question when you've got people killing and dying over something meaningless.

[noparlpf]

Well, it's a bit of an existential question when you've got people killing and dying over something meaningless.

Basically everything is meaningless except having babies.
I should switch from bio/chem to English lit like right now before I get any more cynical.

[Kindablue]

[Trigger, probably]

Spoiler

Show

A mental disorder is viewed as a hardware or software defect. You're not really a woman, you're not really soul crushingly sad, you're not really seeing things. You're just broken. You should sit in the Repairs bin until science can fix you and you can be a regular, good, normal human wing again instead of your currently broken self. The best you can look forward to is being repaired, because you're defective – your defect isn't a Ali's thing on its own and indulging it is sick, like letting someone define themselves by a broken bone and constantly preventing it from healing, because twy were told it's a valid part of who they are or a "lifestyle".

Anything non-normative is a flaw to purged so there hula people can he on with their lives. Society says we have to live with these defectives, but we don't have to consider them people. Not really. Avoid any legal ramifications and just sort of ignore and patronize them until they go away.

"I was terrified when my doctor told me I had a unique and interesting personality trait." -- Doug Stanhope, No Refunds

[Astrella]

This Zinia Jones article might be fitting right now: Being an abomination is pretty great.

[SiuiS]

So, how about that nonbleak stuff, eh? Anyone hug a puppy recently?

[Mystic Muse]

So, how about that nonbleak stuff, eh? Anyone hug a puppy recently?

I've hugged a Luna plushie, and made some more progress in mini painting. Will soon have a (Technically) complete Tyranid Army.

[turkishproverb]

So, how about that nonbleak stuff, eh? Anyone hug a puppy recently?

Hugged an 8ish year old dog. Does that count?

[Astrella]

I got my hands on the last of Charlie's cupcake necklaces. Oh, and I cuddled / used my dog as a pillow over the weekend.

[Selpharia]

Well, I hugged a Flandre Scarlet and a Remilia Scarlet plushie, and came out to my roommate. It went pretty well, all things considered. Actually, he'd guessed beforehand, but didn't want to bring it up. We both laughed at the image of what would happen if one of his friends, who's pretty much the apotheosis of The Man, complete with gelled hair, pressed suit, and dreams of a soulless career in investment banking, accidentally walked into the support group I went to for the first time yesterday and told my roommate about (Answer: brainsplosion). Hopefully coming out to my aunt goes as well, though that's less likely.

~Laura

[Astrella]

Well, I hugged a Flandre Scarlet and a Remilia Scarlet plushie, and came out to my roommate. It went pretty well, all things considered. Actually, he'd guessed beforehand, but didn't want to bring it up. We both laughed at the image of what would happen if one of his friends, who's pretty much the apotheosis of The Man, complete with gelled hair, pressed suit, and dreams of a soulless career in investment banking, accidentally walked into the support group I went to for the first time yesterday and told my roommate about (Answer: brainsplosion). Hopefully coming out to my aunt goes as well, though that's less likely.

~Laura

I don't really know what those plushies are, but glad your coming out went well! Oh, and how did your support meeting go? Also hope coming out to your aunt goes well! Do you think she'd react badly since you say it's less likely to go well?

-----

Also those of you that read Questionable Content should check out the latest update (spoilers):

Spoiler

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Claire just came out as trans.

[Serpentine]

[Trigger, probably]

Spoiler

Show

A mental disorder is viewed as a hardware or software defect. You're not really a woman, you're not really soul crushingly sad, you're not really seeing things. You're just broken. You should sit in the Repairs bin until science can fix you and you can be a regular, good, normal human wing again instead of your currently broken self. The best you can look forward to is being repaired, because you're defective – your defect isn't a Ali's thing on its own and indulging it is sick, like letting someone define themselves by a broken bone and constantly preventing it from healing, because twy were told it's a valid part of who they are or a "lifestyle".

Anything non-normative is a flaw to purged so there hula people can he on with their lives. Society says we have to live with these defectives, but we don't have to consider them people. Not really. Avoid any legal ramifications and just sort of ignore and patronize them until they go away.

Spoiler

Show

I think you're grossly misrepresenting the whole cataloguing system of mental health, and at best are merely echoing the cultural bad attitudes towards mental health that I think all of us agree needs to change.
What is being born with the wrong brain for your body if not "a hardware or software defect"? Who in their right mind* would say that someone with depression "isn't really soul crushingly sad" when that's damn near the literal definition, and why on earth would they want to STAY that way? Since when has seeing things that aren't there not been something that should be fixed if at all possible? It's not - or shouldn't be - about "purging the non-normatives", but acknowledging that this person has a real issue that needs to be managed in order for that person to live a functioning, healthy life - to, yes, be normal, whatever normal means for that individual, which is not a dirty word.
Where "they're not really people" comes in has precisely zero to do with transexuality being considered a disorder and everything to do with general cultural attitudes towards mental health as a whole. The strong negative reaction to trans' inclusion in the DSM feels to me like another symptom of this demonisation of mental health issues. I mean, take away all the social stuff, all the cultural gender roles and traits, stereotypes, expectations, stigma, and all that. Is gender dysphoria not still a problem - not as much as a problem, and a problem much more easily handled, but a problem nonetheless? If that's not a disorder, what is?


*boom boom?

Oh yeah, the reason I came in here: has the latest QC been mentioned yet?
edit: Curse you, Lena!

[Socratov]

hehe Serp, QC is funny (and I somehow have a dejá vu now).

On the whole dysphoria/fixing thing: dysphoria is a disorder (even if society were more relaxed in handling non-heteronormative people) and needs to be fixed ( I can hardly ask any of you to just live with it and ignore it). However, the fix is not drugs or anything, but the transistion to the gender you wish for. solving problems can go a lot of ways. You can treat the results of a problem (or suppress if you will), you can let the problem run it's course until it stops being a problem, you can treat the causes of the problem, or take apart the problem alltogether. to put into perspective for genderdysphoria for trans people: you can suppress the wish for a female identity (removing cuases), you can suppress the dysphoria with drugs (suppressing the results of a problem), you can do nothing (run it's course) or you have the person in question transition (take apart the problem alltogether). Every solution is a valid one depending on the wishes of the owner of the problem (the person with genderdysphoria) and they all have varying degrees of effectiveness. I'm not saying that each solution might be socially acceptable (based on cutural thinking and historical data), but they are solutions anyway. Ultimately it is up to the owner of the problem to make a choice and take the corresponding action.

[golentan]

Heh. I thought Claire and her brother were mighty similar even for siblings. Originally identical twins? Didn't they mention twins in an earlier one? The archive on QC is starting to scare me, and I no longer trust my memories on much of it.

Also, possible crush on Marten? As my friend put it once "there's no reason to tell someone what's in your pants unless you're hoping to share it with them."

[Astrella]

Heh. I thought Claire and her brother were mighty similar even for siblings. Originally identical twins? Didn't they mention twins in an earlier one? The archive on QC is starting to scare me, and I no longer trust my memories on much of it.

Also, possible crush on Marten? As my friend put it once "there's no reason to tell someone what's in your pants unless you're hoping to share it with them."

Nah, Claire is 24 and her brother is 21, so that makes being twins a bit hard.

And yeah, that crossed my mind.

[Serpentine]

Yeah, the mention of twins was "they're not."

[SiuiS]

Spoiler

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I think you're grossly misrepresenting the whole cataloguing system of mental health, and at best are merely echoing the cultural bad attitudes towards mental health that I think all of us agree needs to change.
What is being born with the wrong brain for your body if not "a hardware or software defect"? Who in their right mind* would say that someone with depression "isn't really soul crushingly sad" when that's damn near the literal definition, and why on earth would they want to STAY that way? Since when has seeing things that aren't there not been something that should be fixed if at all possible? It's not - or shouldn't be - about "purging the non-normatives", but acknowledging that this person has a real issue that needs to be managed in order for that person to live a functioning, healthy life - to, yes, be normal, whatever normal means for that individual, which is not a dirty word.
Where "they're not really people" comes in has precisely zero to do with transexuality being considered a disorder and everything to do with general cultural attitudes towards mental health as a whole. The strong negative reaction to trans' inclusion in the DSM feels to me like another symptom of this demonisation of mental health issues. I mean, take away all the social stuff, all the cultural gender roles and traits, stereotypes, expectations, stigma, and all that. Is gender dysphoria not still a problem - not as much as a problem, and a problem much more easily handled, but a problem nonetheless? If that's not a disorder, what is?


*boom boom?

Yes, that is kind of the entire point of that part of the post.
I never said that was good or okay, nor did I say anything to that effect. I did answer the question asked.

I've hugged a Luna plushie, and made some more progress in mini painting. Will soon have a (Technically) complete Tyranid Army.

Oh yeah! Sweet, I forgot you got the Luna! Good stuff :3

Hugged an 8ish year old dog. Does that count?

Yesh~ a puppy is a puppy, no matter what chronological progression tries to say.

Well, I hugged a Flandre Scarlet and a Remilia Scarlet plushie, and came out to my roommate. It went pretty well, all things considered. Actually, he'd guessed beforehand, but didn't want to bring it up. We both laughed at the image of what would happen if one of his friends, who's pretty much the apotheosis of The Man, complete with gelled hair, pressed suit, and dreams of a soulless career in investment banking, accidentally walked into the support group I went to for the first time yesterday and told my roommate about (Answer: brainsplosion). Hopefully coming out to my aunt goes as well, though that's less likely.

~Laura

Nice! Glad to hear it went well. How did he figure out ahead of time, I wonder?

[Serpentine]

I see. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

[SiuiS]

I see. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

Then... I'm sorry. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. I've had an interesting month and it's getting to me.

Friends? Until the next time I say something dumb, at least?

[Serpentine]

Even then

[noparlpf]

Nah, Claire is 24 and her brother is 21, so that makes being twins a bit hard.

And yeah, that crossed my mind.

Okay, cool. Couldn't remember if they were.
Which reminds me--science ought to try to find a bunch of identical twins with one trans and one cis to do brain scans and stuff. That would be a neat paper to read.

[Kindablue]

I didn't even know Raúl Castro had a lesbian daughter.

[noparlpf]

I didn't even know Raúl Castro had a lesbian daughter.

"Last year, a gay man and a transsexual woman whose operation was paid for by the state garnered headlines for their first-of-its kind wedding."
I'm confused.